Self Loathing/Hate and Blasts

[Mr Janje]

So, Pere Ravage gets Self loathing for Severe Damage by my Pandora.

Do blast markers occur, and if so who gets to place them?

[asrian]

None are applied. Both Self Loathing and Self Harm stipulate that no effects or triggers are applied, just the damage track itself to the model. Blast is an effect of the damage, so not used.

[Myyrä]

(1) Self Loathing (Ca 7M / Rst: Wp / Rg 3): Select a 1 AP action on the target. Apply the printed damage results of the chosen action to the target, no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied. The accuracy modifier is determined by the result of this duel.

 

Rulebook has following things to say about attack actions, damage and blasts:

"If the Attacker wins the duel (and equals or exceeds any TN), the effects of the Attack are resolved, usually by dealing damage to the Defender." Pg 38.

From that we gather that damage is part of the effects of the Attack, which means that Self Loathing doesn't ignore all the effects the action has, but merely those that are not part of the printed damage results.

 

"Damage can be inflicted either in a static amount such as 4 damage, or in a variable amount through a damage flip. A damage flip is indicated as three numbers separated by slashes (such as Dg 1/3/5) with the amount of damage dealt depending on the value of the card flipped (see below.)". Pg 46.

From which we can clearly see that damage result is printed either as a fixed number or as a damage flip.

(It's quite weird that the rulebook defines an abbreviation for damage that is only used when defined and in the paragraph I quoted.)

 

"If blast is part of a damage flip (which is usually the case) place one Blast Marker for each blast symbol ( ) in the Damage Severity flipped." Pg 50.

Blast damage can thus clearly be part of a damage flip and thus part of the damage result, which also happens to be the case with Pere Ravage.

 

Summa summarum, in the case in which Pandora uses Self Loathing on Pere Ravage, blast damage can happen if moderate or severe is flipped. Attacker places the blasts as is normal for blast damage.

[asrian]

Using the small rulebook as it's what I have on hand:

Pg 58: Special Rules includes Blasts, Aura, and Pulses as effects.

 

Pandora's attacks ignore effects. No blasts are generated.
 

[Myyrä]

Using the small rulebook as it's what I have on hand:

Pg 58: Special Rules includes Blasts, Aura, and Pulses as effects.

 

Pandora's attacks ignore effects. No blasts are generated.

Wrong. Pandora's attacks ignore effects that are not part of the printed damage results.

[asrian]

Wrong. Pandora's attacks ignore effects that are not part of the printed damage results.

Again we agree to disagree. The printed damage result is #/#/#, Blasts are added effects that certain models have access to. They are ignored by Pandora's attack.

 

[Myyrä]

Again we agree to disagree. The printed damage result is #/#/#, Blasts are added effects that certain models have access too. They are ignored by Pandora's attack.

Could you provide some rules quotes that would prove or even imply that blasts aren't part of the printed damage results? I believe I already did quote the relevant parts in the rule book that seem to indicate that they are.

[asrian]

There's no need to. I already pointed out the page that specified that Blasts, along with Auras, pulses, poison, burning, etc, are all special effects. The damage result is a numerical value, and in the case of some models also an added special effect. In the case in question the added effect is the placement of a Blast marker, which Pandora ignores.
 

[Myyrä]

There's no need to. I already pointed out the page that specified that Blasts, along with Auras, pulses, poison, burning, etc, are all special effects.

Whether they are listed under special rules or not does not seem to be relevant in any way.

The damage result is a numerical value, and in the case of some models also an added special effect.

If there is something in the rules saying that blasts are an added special effect and not part of the damage flip, please quote that part of the rules. The parts I quoted seemed to indicate that they indeed are part of the damage flip.

In the case in question the added effect is the placement of a Blast marker, which Pandora ignores.

Placing a blast marker is indeed something that blast damage does, but I see nothing in the rules stating that it is an added effect instead of being inseparable part of the damage flip.

[asrian]

And I see nothing in the rules stating that Blasts are part of the damage flip. Until there's an official saying one way or the other, your opinion, and mine, is just that, so I will continue to ignore yours.

[Myyrä]

And I see nothing in the rules stating that Blasts are part of the damage flip. Until there's an official saying one way or the other, your opinion, and mine, is just that, so I will continue to ignore yours.

"If blast is part of a damage flip (which is usually the case) place one Blast Marker for each blast symbol ( ) in the Damage Severity flipped." Pg 50.

Blast damage can thus clearly be part of a damage flip and thus part of the damage result, which also happens to be the case with Pere Ravage.

Maybe you should read my first post again.

[zeeblee]

Just to clarify a part of what Myyra is saying:  the damage flip includes so the argument is whether or not blasts included in the damage flip are viewed as additional effects or as part of the damage.  Now, if it said, damage 2/3/4 and place for moderate or severe damage, then I would see it as clear cut, but the problem is that the blasts are in fact on the damage track.

[jonahmaul]

Page 50 of the (big) rulebook has already been quoted but the first bit of the wording under Blasts is 'Some effects (usually damage) contain a blast symbol' (my emphasis).  Therefore it's clear that Blasts are an effect and since Pandora can not use effects they are not added.

[Myyrä]

Page 50 of the (big) rulebook has already been quoted but the first bit of the wording under Blasts is 'Some effects (usually damage) contain a blast symbol' (my emphasis).  Therefore it's clear that Blasts are an effect and since Pandora can not use effects they are not added.

(1) Self Loathing (Ca 7M / Rst: Wp / Rg 3): Select a 1 AP action on the target. Apply the printed damage results of the chosen action to the target, no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied. The accuracy modifier is determined by the result of this duel.

 

Rulebook has following things to say about attack actions, damage and blasts:

"If the Attacker wins the duel (and equals or exceeds any TN), the effects of the Attack are resolved, usually by dealing damage to the Defender." Pg 38.

From that we gather that damage is part of the effects of the Attack, which means that Self Loathing doesn't ignore all the effects the action has, but merely those that are not part of the printed damage results.

Seriously, read that first post.

[jonahmaul]

I've read it. And qute frankly it's a ridiculous interpretation and smacks of gamesmanship. The page number I've quoted clearly states that Blasts are an effect and so wouldn't be applied. The real issue is that Self-Loathing contains the word 'printed' when Self-Harm just says apply the damage. Claiming that because it says printed means Blasts gets added because damage is also an effect is just trying to twist the rules. Blast is an 'other' effect.

[Myyrä]

I've read it. And qute frankly it's a ridiculous interpretation and smacks of gamesmanship. The page number I've quoted clearly states that Blasts are an effect and so wouldn't be applied. The real issue is that Self-Loathing contains the word 'printed' when Self-Harm just says apply the damage. Claiming that because it says printed means Blasts gets added because damage is also an effect is just trying to twist the rules. Blast is an 'other' effect.

I believe you have misunderstood what I was saying.

 

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter in the least if blasts are an effect or not. Effect is not a defined game term in Malifaux. That means that anything caused by literally anything is an effect. Printed damage result of an attack action is also an effect (and is referred as one in the rule book). From this we can deduce that "no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied" refers to effects other than the printed damage results of the chosen action. Blast damage on the other hand seems to be part of those printed damage results (or just damage results if you prefer) according to rule book.

 

Calling my interpretation ridiculous is unnecessarily offending, because my interpretation is actually based on the rules as they are written. It also doesn't make sense to call it poor sportsmanship because you have no idea if I play Pandora or not, and no idea about my motives here.

[asrian]

Ok. Take damage as an effect. Blast is also an effect. Pandora's ability says take the printed damage and no OTHER effects. Ergo, take the number, leave the rest. That includes leaving off the Blast. 

[Myyrä]

Ok. Take damage as an effect. Blast is also an effect. Pandora's ability says take the printed damage and no OTHER effects. Ergo, take the number, leave the rest. That includes leaving off the Blast. 

Seems to me like you redefined damage result to suit your own point of view. That's hardly evidence of anything, unless you can actually present evidence that damage does not include blasts.

[asrian]

Seems to me like you redefined damage result to suit your own point of view. That's hardly evidence of anything, unless you can actually present evidence that damage does not include blasts.

As are you. You are taking an effect that's built into a damage and saying they are synonymous. To me that's just gamey. Blast is not an amount of damage, it's an effect that has an applied amount based on the damage inherent in the ability. But whatever, I'm done discussing it as you're obviously someone who would rather twist definitions in support of power gaming. 

[Myyrä]

As are you. You are taking an effect that's built into a damage and saying they are synonymous. To me that's just gamey. Blast is not an amount of damage, it's an effect that has an applied amount based on the damage inherent in the ability. But whatever, I'm done discussing it as you're obviously someone who would rather twist definitions in support of power gaming. 

The difference is that I presented evidence to support my claims. If you do the same, I promise I will consider them very carefully.

[Kalkris]

I am of the notion that since the Blasts (which are just as much an effect as damage is) are printed on the damage track, and are not tacked on in any other way, the blasts occur, as they are clearly printed as part of the damage track.

 

I honeslty believe this conversation has gone a few posts too far and I see a whole lot of tensions arising here. While I highly doubt this comes up as frequently as a FAQ should entail, this sort of thing should be put in the FAQ in May (and not just as a copout answer on my part - not everything has, or should necessarily have, a place in the FAQ), at the very least in order to put a halt to accusations of poor sportmanship or the like.

 

For the record, I no longer have stake in the Pandora crew's effectiveness for or against me, and I'm just calling it as I see it.

 

~Lil Kalki

 

EDIT: ALSO. If it didn't include blasts, it would say the word "numerical" somewhere, as that's how things that read numbers alone in this game seem to work - see the Power Loop condition for one. Unless I am mistaken, as I don't have a Hoffman-based card on me, it says something about copying the "printed numerical value" so as to omit suits. I don't see how this is too different; since the developers know enough to talk of numerical vs overall, they probably omitted numerical to allow for blasts on Pandora's part.

 

EDIT EDIT: Looked over Hoff's final Wave 2 beta rules (so wording could still be off a smidge, but); it still says "this model may use the printed numerical [stats involved in Power Loop] from another friendly modelp...]" and as such, that's the right precedent to cite, I think.

[jonahmaul]

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter in the least if blasts are an effect or not. Effect is not a defined game term in Malifaux. That means that anything caused by literally anything is an effect. Printed damage result of an attack action is also an effect (and is referred as one in the rule book). From this we can deduce that "no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied" refers to effects other than the printed damage results of the chosen action. Blast damage on the other hand seems to be part of those printed damage results (or just damage results if you prefer) according to rule book.

Effects are a defined game term in Malifaux.  You have written how damage is an effect of an action (page 38) and I have quoted page 50 which also states that Blasts are an effect.  These are two clear parts of the rulebook where effects are defined.  Pandora's Self-Loating states that you apply the printed damage effects (i.e. the numbers that are on the cards which are the damage spread ('a damage flip is indicated by three numbers separated by slashes with the amount of damage dealt depending on the value of the card flipped' page 46)) and 'no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied' (the Blast which is defined on page 50 as being an effect of (usually) damage).

 

This is a clear interpretation of the rulebook.  It's even more obvious when you read Self-Harm (which you've neglected to draw attention to) which doesn't even contain the word 'printed' as I've stated so is a much more clear case.  Now I agree there's an issue with the consistency of the wording on her card but the rules make a clear case for Blasts being an 'other' effect.

[Adran]

Page 50 of the (big) rulebook has already been quoted but the first bit of the wording under Blasts is 'Some effects (usually damage) contain a blast symbol' (my emphasis).  Therefore it's clear that Blasts are an effect and since Pandora can not use effects they are not added.

 

That doesn't actually say that blasts are an effect. It says Damage is an effect. It states that the blast symbol are part of the damage.

 

I also can't see how it can be claimed that a damage flip that is Printed as

2/3  /5   doesn't have blasts as part of the printed damage flip. They are right there.

 

I agree with Myyra, the blasts are part of the printed damage track, and so not one of the effects that Pandora ignores.

 

They are just as much effects as the numbers are that deal damage.

[PraetorDragoon]

(Wording inconsistency is sadly something that appears, and presenting the differences between two actions that are the same except for a single word is a weak argument in my opinion. After all, you have no telling which of the wordings is the correct one.)

 

I personally would argue that blasts are a part of the printed damage result because of how the damage track is worded. As it currently stands. blasts aren't a seperately noted effect, such as Slow and Paralyze by the Guild Laywer's OBJECTION. 

[asrian]

That doesn't actually say that blasts are an effect. It says Damage is an effect. It states that the blast symbol are part of the damage.

 

 

At the top of page 50 in the big rule book under Special Rules it says that they are Effects.