premeasuring

[Shadowdragon]

Call me old fashioned, but I feel like premeasuring in a miniatures game is basically cheating. If you're going to have premeasuring why not just go the Heroclix route and put the game onto a grid. Movement and Range then becomes a # of squares rather than a # of inches. Might as well just make Malifaux a board game. I mean really "I'm going to shoot that guy over there, so everyone stop what you're doing" *shooter then paces out the distance between himself and the target before returning to his original position* "Dang, half a pace out of range, ok I'm going to shoot that that other guy over there instead" It's just such a stupid concept both mechanically and descriptively.

 

I've looked at some other threads on these forums and seen garbage like the whole premeasure and premove debacle, and the "measure from point A to point B, then from point B to point C, etc..." lunacy. How did this make it into the rules in the first place, and what person could possibly think such a rule was a good idea? Was this added simply to appease the tournament players or something? Am I the only one that sees the absurdity in this? Honestly, I'm going to ignore the rule even exists. I don't care if my opponent chooses to cheat and premeasure, but I refuse to do it. M2E is otherwise a magnificent game, and I love it to bits, but this premeasuring thing really gets my ire up.

 

Are there any groups out there that have banned premeasuring? Or has everyone simply accepted it? Has anyone actually tried playing Malifaux on a grid rather than with a measuring tape?

[zFiend]

I think the premeasuring is a great addition and leaves out small annoying mistakes like "oh man I'm 5mm aways, oh well, guess you'll just charge me next and I just gave you a model for free". I am really glad it's there.

[mythicFOX]

Clearly you've a very firm opinion on pre-measuring, a lot of people do. Personally I don't have a burning passion one way or the other. All game mechanics are abstractions and there's no reason range estimation has to be a mechanic in all miniature games. Just because a lot of miniature games use dice doesn't mean you would say; using a decks of cards as a game mechanic is cheating. It's just a different design choice.

 

The skill in Malifaux has always leaned far more towards resource management (cards, stones, AP) than positional play (angles and facing) for its skill set.  Pre-measuring means knowing your options (whats in/out of range) and pushes the skill of the game away from working out what you could do and more towards what you should do.

 

If you don't feel you want to pre-measure, then your gaming group is free to agree not too. Play the game the way you enjoy, it's supposed to be fun after all.  

[Dirial]

Premeasuring is a godsend. One of the best things in the game. For me, this game is about tactics, not about a good eye for estimating distances. Everytime I play Hordes now (my second minis game), I'm so pissed off that I cannot measure and have to plan my turn without enough information.

 

If my opponent wanted to play with a handicap: Okay, but I would feel weird, like being pressured into it as well. Also, what do you want to do with your actions if your estimates are off. In Malifaux, it's forbidden to take illegal actions, so what would happen with your AP if you're out of range?

[Adran]

A grid gives much much less freedom than the current game.

Premeausuring allows you to not suffer that out by 1/2 mm problem, wasting ap, and potentially costing games.

Most of the time you're not going to notice premeasuring in the game, it flows pretty naturally. And comparign it to the real world doesn't work that well, as Malifaux does not have range drop off, Its as easy to hit someone at point blank range as it is at maximum range. (I do archery, and have a decent grasp of how far I could shoot a bow, so know if its worth a shot or not. But its much easier to judge 150 yards, than the difference between 7.9" and 8.1"

 

Whilst I don't like Premeasure, there are very few complaints about it ( i think you've listed the only thread it gets complained about), it doesn't slow the game most of the time.

 

And having been involved in the old edition without premeasuring, and this edition, and the rules beta testing, there are a lot of distances you do need to know which ought to be obvious to the model (are you in an aura, someones melee range, close enough to cover and so forth), which need to be measured, and so it isn't a huge step to just completly allow premeasuring. By all means, don't bother doing so yourself, but to discribe someone doing it as cheating is too strong in my opinion.

Its removed one skill from the game (distance judgement), and there is typically little cost to this (I know I used to spend a while deciding on close shots, so unless you or your opponent seriously suffers from analysis paryaisis, its going to be time neutral)

 

I've not played on a grid, but I really wouldn't want to. It seriously reduces the placement skills of the game, and reduces the options of what you can do with models.

[Jimbobovalsocks]

I can't believe you've got all these replies! Pre-measuring is part of the game of Malifaux. If you don't like it, don't come on here ranting! Go and play something else! Problem solved, no need for a debate.

[Breng77]

I find it interesting that your argument for premeasuring is based on some real world ideal of needing to know distances.  Bullets don't stop at a specific distance, if I am 1 foot further than my range of accuracy I don't automatically miss.

 

That said a lack of premeasuring heavily favors models with longer ranges, and hurts those that need melee as if you declare that a charge fails if you are out of range (a stupid thing about non-premeasuring, If I decide to run at you I don't suddenly realize that I cannot make it there, and stand around doing nothing.), now you have wasted 2 AP and in most cases an entire models activation, where a shooting model maybe wastes one.  Also if you have a long range model you can use its firing to "premeasure" which is also dumb and gamey.

 

Furthermore, lack of premeasuring simply means that you prize the skill of estimating distances and paying attention to other measurments (my opponent shoots a 12" gun and is just out of range now I know my range...makes no real life sense either).  SImply put, premeasuring to me makes way more sense in how things actually occur (no magic stopping bullets are fired, no models stand around dumbfounded when they cannot reach their target).  To me it sounds like you like the gotcha effect when people miss their estimates on distance.  To me it detracts from tactical play, and is often emersion breaking.  I look at it this way the models know their effective ranges and would not choose to take actions that would fail.  The player is not said model.

[Bengt]

Pre-measuring is a game mechanic like any other, some games have it, some don't. Calling it cheating just makes it seem like you don't know what the word "cheating" means.

[Scott-S6]

Pre-measuring prevents the creep that is all too common without it. Many times in other games I've seen models move into range of enemy models when they should have been just out of range (the old "deploy OVER 24" away, move 12 + 6 + 6  = base contact!"). It keeps everyone honest and accurate.

[mythicFOX]

<MOD HAT>

Please remember to be nice to each other. You can disagree without being rude to oneanother.

</MOD HAT>

[Carasz]

I find premeasuring also evens out the player field between beginners and veterans, especially if both are new to malifaux but one has played many other games and therefore has a good eye for distances.

It's similar to when warhammer used to have a guess range for lobbing war machines. I'm pretty good at guessing distances (often within 0,5 inches) even though we use cm's in my country. That means in my hands, the war machine was often twice as effective compared to some of my opponents. I felt it was unfair when they removed the guess work, since I had worked on that skill, but I realized after the change how much more fair the new game mechanic felt.

I felt the same when I first used the pre-measure in malifaux. It makes for a tighter game (in terms of tactical movements) and a more fun one.

[Flint]

Premeasuring is cheating? I would not put it that way. First You have to ask yourself what game do You want to play: a guess game or a tactical game. Second: players with natural abilities to estimate distances have a huge advantage. 

[kmdl1066]

Premeasuring is the opposite of cheating. Allowing premeasuring is a great way to remove the most common form of cheating : measuring by alternate methods when the rules don't allow measuring.  I'll just "innocently" lay this thing that I know is exactly x inches over here on the side of the table parallel to something that I'd really like measured.  I've just measured a range I'm allowed to measure and now I'll just casually move my tape over another area before retracting it. I know that piece of terrain is exactly x inches long (and you don't) because I measured it yesterday.

[r4st4f4n]

A game where people keeps "absently" hovering the locked measuring tape, silhouettes, spare bases, cards, pencils, sticks, fingers, tattoos, etc... over an interesting area, just builds up a lot more negativity...

If you want to play the game "Veteran" mode, the choice is open for you, as you are allowed to premeasure, not obliged.

Edit:

Premeasuring is the opposite of cheating. Allowing premeasuring is a great way to remove the most common form of cheating : measuring by alternate methods when the rules don't allow measuring.  I'll just "innocently" lay this thing that I know is exactly x inches over here on the side of the table parallel to something that I'd really like measured.  I've just measured a range I'm allowed to measure and now I'll just casually move my tape over another area before retracting it. I know that piece of terrain is exactly x inches long (and you don't) because I measured it yesterday.

Exactly this.

[Inquisitor Wall]

I was very skeptical of premeasuring at the start, but I am really happy with it. It speeds up the game, and cuts down on conflict between players for distances. Using the example in the first post, a person shooting a gun would look to see that their target is in range, or appeared to be in range before shooting. In the feel of the game I simply think of it as the character assessing their options and then taking the best choice they have.

[Omenbringer]

A bit off topic but...

I find it interesting that your argument for premeasuring is based on some real world ideal of needing to know distances.  Bullets don't stop at a specific distance, if I am 1 foot further than my range of accuracy I don't automatically miss.

Not entirely true, all projectiles do eventually "stop at a specific distance" this is their maximum range (not maximum effective range. Additionally, being closer or farther to a target can greatly effect the accuracy of a projectile via bullet drop and environmental effects (such as wind direction, wind speed, air density and humidity). With pistols in particular a few feet can mean the difference between hitting the average man sized target and missing completely.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Re: OP, Malifaux has a vast number of variables, including bluffing and a very wide variety of actions. With simpler games, I can see the fun of no premeasuring, but in a game with this much stuff to consider, I'm glad that almost everything, including range, is public information, so you can make the best decisions based on information rather than being off by 1mm or not knowing a counter.

 

Also, it's way easier to debate over distance and agree something's illegal and do something else, than to debate over distance after an action's been declared, have it be illegal, and have wasted your action (and possibly activation if your other action(s) was/were based on the assumption that the first was true).

[dancater]

I like it.

 

Reality discussions are completely pointless in a game where flaming demons and walking zombies are central facets.

 

From a game mechanic perspective I find it reduces angst and divisive discussions on "if you are a few mm's short in range xx", you can measure before you declare and it makes the discussion much quicker and less divisive because it is simply less critical, you might not get your action but you loose less.

 

Furthermore I think it prevents (or at least reduces) the habit which you occasionally see of players massaging distances by adding a small amount here or there or the around/over/through terrain which ends up in the model moving more than it should, again you can simply pre-measure and agree before hand and there is no "well now I'm committed and doomed" or "the you moved it and it's finished" or "where did you come from originally were you that deep in the forest terrain or this deep?"

 

It is by no means a cure all to game debates and the occasional 'flexible' distance interpretation but I really think it makes the games more fun and less argumentative.

 

As for realistic, when a knife wielding toddler summons a flesh eating teddy to destroy my steam powered metal spider thing........... meh, who cares. It's a game I want to play to enjoy (and this helps for me), if I wanted something else then I guess I could pull out historical mini's and play one of the detailed and realistic historical based games.

[SpiralngCadavr]

An aside-

 

Reality discussions are completely pointless in a game where flaming demons and walking zombies are central facets.

 

(...)

 

As for realistic, when a knife wielding toddler summons a flesh eating teddy to destroy my steam powered metal spider thing........... meh, who cares. It's a game I want to play to enjoy (and this helps for me), if I wanted something else then I guess I could pull out historical mini's and play one of the detailed and realistic historical based games.

I very much disagree with the "wacky/magical stuff happens, so that excuses everything" argument.

 

Machines being capable of thought does not change physics or smart proportions.

 

A purple sky does not justify pistols being stronger than rockets.

 

Dragons being real does not change the temperature of caves.

 

...There are lots of things in any given game based on style, preference, cool factor, or rules abstraction, but any one thing being silly does not suddenly mean that anyone who says "that's just too far, I can't suspend my disbelief" is wrong.

[Myyrä]

A bit off topic but...

Not entirely true, all projectiles do eventually "stop at a specific distance" this is their maximum range (not maximum effective range. Additionally, being closer or farther to a target can greatly effect the accuracy of a projectile via bullet drop and environmental effects (such as wind direction, wind speed, air density and humidity). With pistols in particular a few feet can mean the difference between hitting the average man sized target and missing completely.

For rifle caliber weapons that distance happens to be quite a lot larger than what can be found on a normal Malifaux table. Yet for some reason all rifles don't have 100" range in this game.

[LunarSol]

I'm generally against premeasuring.  The number of games I've played where kiting is a severe balance issue leaves me a bit predisposed towards systems that discourage models from attacking at their absolute maximum range.  When done well, games without premeasuring can create a great grey zone where ranged models have to choose between ensuring they make range and risking being within melee retaliation.  It's a fun edge to run on that generally leans in favor of the dynamic melee clashes that make tabletop gaming fun.

 

That said, premeasuring works for Malifaux, almost entirely because movement is not a free action in this game.  For a ranged model to kite, they have to give up 50% of their potential damage output to reposition to the edge of their attack range and even then, the game is so based on getting models to specific points and spending AP to earn VP that doing so costs even more, as moving back towards the objectives costs more of the 10 actions a model generally gets over the course of the game.  Movement in the game is a precious commodity and as such, the game gains a lot by having it be open information.

[Omenbringer]

For rifle caliber weapons that distance happens to be quite a lot larger than what can be found on a normal Malifaux table. Yet for some reason all rifles don't have 100" range in this game.

Very true, there are precious few mini games that feature any where near realistic firearm ranges (and none that have realistic artillery ranges).

[dancater]

An aside-

 

I very much disagree with the "wacky/magical stuff happens, so that excuses everything" argument.

 

Machines being capable of thought does not change physics or smart proportions.

 

A purple sky does not justify pistols being stronger than rockets.

 

Dragons being real does not change the temperature of caves.

 

...There are lots of things in any given game based on style, preference, cool factor, or rules abstraction, but any one thing being silly does not suddenly mean that anyone who says "that's just too far, I can't suspend my disbelief" is wrong.

 

I perhaps was misunderstood. I agree that basic realism is important, I really value it.

 

However it is in essence a fantasy wargame and the mechanics of the game must give way to realism in places. Do I want a realistic game, yes. Do I want an enjoyable game, more.

 

Pre-measuring and arguning the physics of it strikes me as the perfect example of this, from my days in the military could I approximate the distance to a target, yes. Did I know the distance and variables of atmosphere, conditions, weapon velocity and round weight and charge that would be involved in weapon discharge, no (admitedly I was by no means a sniper, or even frontline combatant, and I could only reliably hit much of anything at less than 500m ). But this is a game and I think pre-measuring reduces measurement manipulation, analysis paralysis and arguments and generally makes the game faster and smoother for a minimal cost.

 

My point was is it absolutely realistic, well no. But this is a game, a fantasy game and played for fun not for some nebulous definition of historical accuracy. I am prepared to sacrifice elements of what I know as reality so I can make things Glowy and turn my enemies into Meat Popsicles Raspy style (it is after all magic, don't question it). Likewise I am prepared to sacrifice the uncertainty of range/speed variables in order to make my game experience more enjoyable which for me this does, although I understand that opinions differ (there are games I don't play or play rarely because I don't 'sit' well with certain design decisions). My point was that arguing about realism in a fantasy game as the unassailable point of rightousness is pretty pointless, not that realism should not enter equations but that how the rules play and the balance between smoothness/realism/imagination/balance/complexity/simplicity and many other factors must be the basis of discussion. To say that "in reality it would be lake this" cannot be an argument in a fantasy game, it is after all a fantasy game, it by simple definition mutates reality in order to create the essence of the game.

 

So I apologise for any misunderstanding Spiral.. my point was in line with yours, that many things go into the game and simply saying that "in reality it would not be this way" is no more (or less) valid than saying "its a fantasy game we can do whatever we want". It's a balance and on this rule I personally am happy to suspend my disbelief in favour of what I consider a more satisfying game experience.

 

But then great minds think alike so I am afraid that only dribbling idiots and single cell organisms can think on a plane equal to myself by that analogy so it might not be a great thing if you do agree with me .

[Mastershake]

I've seen the "guessing distances is a skill" argument a lot and I have to say that's incorrect.  Guessing distances is just something you pick up in response to a limitation, not necessarily a skill you need to figure out the right course of action.  If you make a game that can't survive players being able to pre-measure you made a bad game period.  Warmachine is a great game and could totally allow pre-measuring (and at this point it almost does given that you can measure control areas, zones, killboxes, melee ranges and the distance to a flag or objective at any time), but a vocal section of the community thinks it will ruin the game for very ill-defined reasons such as the thought that you can just dance at the edge of your range (completely ignoring the facts that scenarios force you to engage and with all the pre-measuring already allowed you can still do that).

 

Having to guess distances can also be a substantial barrier to entry if someone has never played a miniatures game before (how many times does an average person need to know the distance between 6" and 8" in a given day?).  While it feels a little odd to pre-measure coming from games that ban it, going from a game with pre-measuring to a game without it highlights how absolutely bizarre the idea that can't pre-measure really is.

 

A bit off topic but...

Not entirely true, all projectiles do eventually "stop at a specific distance" this is their maximum range (not maximum effective range. Additionally, being closer or farther to a target can greatly effect the accuracy of a projectile via bullet drop and environmental effects (such as wind direction, wind speed, air density and humidity). With pistols in particular a few feet can mean the difference between hitting the average man sized target and missing completely.

 

A few feet?  Pistols aren't exactly sniper rifles, but a few feet in distance should at most mean the difference between a clean hit and going to edge of the black unless you're really stretching the weapons maximum range or a really bad shot (sorry I was an armorer and had to teach a lot of bad shooters how to handle pistols).  Playing a miniatures game usually means accepting that weapon ranges are entirely related to balance and have no bearing on actual ranges, since even a 9mm like the beretta should be able to cleanly hit targets across an average Malifaux board.

[paradoxstorm]

I wouldn't play Malifaux if premeasuring were not allowed.  

 

I have never played other war games but can understand where guessing distances would be an integral part of some of those games.  But there is no universal rule about a specific game mechanic applying to all games--even all games in a specific genre.  If the mechanic is good for the game it should be included. If not, it should be excluded.

 

Several have already argued that premeasuring makes sense for Malifaux given the other mechanics in use.  I clearly agree and I would have quit Malifaux after a single attempt at playing were premeasuring not allowed.  (Assuming I had bothered trying to play at all.)

 

If precise distance estimation is a necessary part of the game, I am not interested in that game--there are plenty of other games for me to choose from.