Trouble With Slingshots

[admiralvorkraft]

Maybe it's just the local meta (a generous label when it's really just two or three guys), or maybe it's my love of minion heavy, crew dependent masters (Sonnia and Lucius particularly), but it seems like every game I play I'm getting hit with a serious beat stick at the bottom of turn 1.

The most recent example is a nasty Molly list where a couple of Doxys get a Rogue Necromancy moving, summoned Doxys accelerate it, and a handful of three point buffer activation horrors means that by the time the combo gets going I've activated everything.

Short of taking a Pathfinder and a Friekorps Trapper in every list I'm at a loss as to how I can stop the slingshot, and short of buying constructs (which might be an option when they are released in plastic) I can't seem to find anything in Guild that can stand up to whatever Thing is coming at me, even with substantial defensive buffs.

 

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm open to ideas.

[Tapdancer]

eat it with a guild marshal?

[Fetid Strumpet]

The Rogue Necro is pretty easy to kill. Honestly, if my opponent wants to burn multiple 7+ cards (which is the required number the Doxies need to achieve to push something along) in order to get that easy to kill model up in my face early and maybe kill one or my models for his trouble, I can make that trade. Add in Molly's summoning, and unless they just get super lucky and top deck all their required flips, that's going to severely deplete their hand.

 

Counter wise I guess it depends on what you are playing. I can see how Sonia and Lucius might have trouble with this, a little, in that you don't want to keep Sonia up front, and a Lucius gun line wants to stay clumped up.

 

First counter tactic is spread out, but remain in support range for counter charges. It doesn't matter if the Rogue Necro gets moved up field and kills one model of mine and fails to lock down the rest, because it will die, or be severely crippled for its cost the instant my models get a chance to go. So it net effects to a trade of an expensive model for an expensive model, + all the AP and cards they spent to make that trade. Most of the time that works out as a trade in the defender's favor.

 

Second counter tactic for rush lists is to bait them with something that looks impressive or vulnerable, and get them to spend all the cards and AP to get the Necro into a position where it will be difficult to rejoin the fight.

 

Third counter tactic, take schemes that play around the strength of the beatstick.

 

 

Really there are a lot of lists that can fling a powered up Rail golem, or Killjoy, or other other monster into your face turn 1. Weather the storm, kill it, then go get you points. Honestly I've stopped playing slingshot lists outside of a few match ups because even if I kill something important I often lose my monster, and even considering a straight trade of equally costed models, I feel I come out on the losing end because I usually spend more ap and cards to make the trade happen. The only time I feel it's worth the trade is against models like the Mechanical Rider where killing them early is almost required if you want to have a shot at the game.

[hippodruid]

Fetid's not wrong about that Necromancy or any isolated beatstick, really.

 

The Guild also has Clockwork Traps that can help mitigate this a little.  If you can identify likely advancement lanes (or create them by concentrating your models), Traps can block charges at a bare minimum or even latch onto an approaching beatstick and potentially slow it.  They're also immune to conditions, so Terrifying isn't a problem.

[dgraz]

I agree with others. Dropping a heavy hitter in your opponents DZ turn 1 unsupported usually just means a dead heavy hitter.....then you're down that model for the rest of the game.

[Clement]

Two nice things about slingshots is that with few exceptions (Tara), they are very static and expensive to pull. They *always* consist of a big beater model and a gang of "movers" to shuttle it across the field. This means that when you see it coming you can deploy appropriately and plan out the first turn awaiting its arrival near the end of the turn.

Once its been dealt with, you can get back to scoring points.

[Paddywhack]

I agree with others. Dropping a heavy hitter in your opponents DZ turn 1 unsupported usually just means a dead heavy hitter.....then you're down that model for the rest of the game.

It still hurts when Lady J is in your face and kills half your crew with attacks and Ripostes.

[admiralvorkraft]

I want to be clear, I know the slingshot is a common combo, and I'm not trying to bitch about it. In fact, were it not for the absurd out-activation he has going on I'd probably be able to deal with it just fine.

 

Based on your advice I'm thinking prepare a defense in depth - focused Riflemen up front to Stand and Fire, Witchling Handler or some high WP fighter to charge in at the top of turn 2, support models behind the line, and some mobile element out scheming? For Sonnia replace the Riflemen with Witchlings.

Honestly though, I'm more interested in finding some way to stop the combo before it gets to me. Even one or two Rogue Necromancy activations can ruin my day when Molly's behind him summoning in Students of Viscera with wild abandon... Pathfinders would help me get more out of clockwork traps and seem like one of my few options for a model that can actually touch the enemy turn one, in standard deployment, in a meaningful way.

Thoughts?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm not sure you can "stop it" per say. Outside of killing the monster, or all the support models helping get it into your lines I don't think there is a way to stop it. There are better ways to deal with it, I feel. One way to deal with it, mostly if they are using a Rogue Necro, is to just focus fire on it until it is dead or more likely, just under the threshold for it to continue getting any benefit from Three Headed. Hitting a rogue necro for weak damage is absurdly easy, and so it drops in wounds very very fast. It's one reason I don't bring them very often.

 

Another solution is to not give it a viable target. If you don't have a cluster of easy to kill targets in a clump, or a high value target that can't effectively defend itself, then the tactic loses viability.

 

A way to stop Molly summoning is to target her. Molly's defenses require constant expenditure of resources. If she ways to summon she needs cards, if she wants to use Masterful Dead, it drains cards. You can't stop luck, so if she is repeatedly drawing a 12+ per turn and finds the best use for it overall is to utilize it and a stone to summon a Student of Vicera, that's going to happen, but you can make it difficult to do anything else by putting direct pressure on her. The fewer cards she has, the fewer cards she has for her minions, and the fewer summons she can pull off.

 

My personal advice remains the same. Damage the monster on the way in, if you have the ability to do so, and it doesn't detract AP from achieving VP, Weather the storm, kill the monster or strand it. Then go on to win via VP accumulation.

[rancor709]

What are you specifically bringing in your crews? That way I can better tailor advise with models your familiar with. Fetid has it nailed in the general tactical sense. Some other options particularly. Some options not covered. Position better the Rogue necromancy is a very large base, some cheap plentiful expendable guild guard or other such model, deployed along routes that afford angles to the big man might be wise. The two can play this game card, Hunters chain weapon threatening if he does bring it close that you bring it into killy things. Another bit, avoid grouping your models, if your bunching up, your playing to mollys strengths not yours.  

[admiralvorkraft]

Killing the monster at range isn't a huge problem (though even with plus flips to the horror duel I seem to end up paralyzed as often as not), or it wouldn't be if I weren't out-activated six ways to Sunday by night terrors and crooligans.

I will admit that I'm bunching up too much. Yan Lo teleported in and ended my game today on turn two by locking down basically all of my minions. But it seems geometrically impossible to spread my models out and still give them the mutual support they need to accomplish anything at all.

I love this game but I really am frustratingly bad at it.

[Omenbringer]

You hit on a great point about successful slingshot tactics, namely they wait to launch until they have a juicy target. When I used to run the "Pig Boomerang" last edition it was difficult to counter due to out activation "freezing" targets in place.

 

A lot of the recommendations above are good, however you need to accept that you will likely lose models to the tactic. The key is in being able to limit the losses to acceptable levels and counter. Summoner's are great for this.

[akaean]

Exactly. Its important to keep focus even when you are losing models early and quickly- whether that be from a slingshot or from snipers.

You mentioned Sonnia and Lucius, both have counters available. Sonnia can block off an attack avenue with flame wall, and if you run the child you can use 2 flame walls. This can seriously disrupt the slingshot's attack avenue.

Lucius has an edge winning initiative with the Doppleganger, and that may be all you need to disable the Beatstick with Objection. Or start slapping on devestating amounts of fees. Or tossing a trap his way.

I am convinced the Pathfinder is one of the very best models in the faction. Being able to place and relocate traps where they are most useful is very powerful. For Sonnia as well who can use the trap to generate a big blast if she randomizes too it

[admiralvorkraft]

I think exploring the pathfinder will help, and trying to spread out more. I'll report on my success (or more likely my lack-there-of).

[Adran]

Ways to hinder a slingshot.

 

Block the attack route with somethign tough. This maybe a Df7 Lady justice with your good cards and stones ready for repost, or it may be a simple wichling stalker ready to explode. Eitehr way you are limiting the slingshot options by denying it the choice of targets. This is terrain dependent, as some boards you will struggle to block enough lanes. Armor and hard to wound models go nicely here, as does defensive stance.

You can keep out of sight. The rogue necromancy can't charge if it can't see. Tricks like Flame wall probably belong here.

You can go for out activtion. Guild Hounds, Guards and stalkers are all pretty cheap (as are watchers, Brutal Effigys (also very hard to kill for the Necromancy) wastrels, Riflemen).

Ranged Threat, Riflemen and Austringers will probably be your call here. If your riflemen have the focused condition, its pretty unlikely the Necrpomancy is going to charge them or anythign near them. Austringrs can potentiall get 2 focused shots a turn in the right crew, which eather wittles down the necromancy, or can destrpy the enemies hand.

 

Decent support models - Francisco. + 2 df is great at keeping soemthign alive. Df8 Sonnia (for example) is much much harder for the necromancy to hit.

Lawyer can pass out Hard to wound, which helps counter the necromancys 3 headed.

Guardians can hand out Defensive.

 

Finally how is Molly summoning anything on the first turn that does anything, if its not near one of your models it dies. I don't know Molly and the Doxys that well, but I would have thought if you don't move too far forwards she can't be summoning doxies that wil help her at all. And if she is gettign to summon off your models, consider Taelor and her welcome to Malifaux.

[MasterDisaster]

Ways to hinder a slingshot.

 

Block the attack route with somethign tough. This maybe a Df7 Lady justice with your good cards and stones ready for repost, 

 

Lady J is Df 5... You'll need El Mayor from Francisco in order to achieve Df 7 or something similar in nature at least

[Adran]

Lady J is Df 5... You'll need El Mayor from Francisco in order to achieve Df 7 or something similar in nature at least

 

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant with El Mayor (likewise the Sonnia is with El Mayor). In fact if you are palnnign on a road block, El Mayor is one of best abilities.

[Omenbringer]

Ways to hinder a slingshot.

 

Block the attack route with somethign tough. This maybe a Df7 Lady justice with your good cards and stones ready for repost, or it may be a simple wichling stalker ready to explode. Eitehr way you are limiting the slingshot options by denying it the choice of targets. This is terrain dependent, as some boards you will struggle to block enough lanes. Armor and hard to wound models go nicely here, as does defensive stance.

Not sure this is the soundest of advice as a lot of the "Sling Shots" are Pushes or Place effects which dont care about Severe Terrain or Disengaging Strikes and can be angled to ignore the blocking models and yet still end in viable attack range. Even on terrain heavy boards which were much more common last edition this isn't that difficult. Collodi and his Puppets in particular are fairly adept at this.

 

 

You can go for out activtion. Guild Hounds, Guards and stalkers are all pretty cheap (as are watchers, Brutal Effigys (also very hard to kill for the Necromancy) wastrels, Riflemen).

 

This is definitely a viable method though usually predicates moving your "elites" last which can interfere with a lot of the powerful combinations.

 

 

Ranged Threat, Riflemen and Austringers will probably be your call here. If your riflemen have the focused condition, its pretty unlikely the Necrpomancy is going to charge them or anythign near them. Austringrs can potentiall get 2 focused shots a turn in the right crew, which eather wittles down the necromancy, or can destrpy the enemies hand.

 

The big concern here is the "Sling Shot" model reaching your ranged deterrent before they can set. Once engaged the Riflemen and Austringers are fairly restricted. Additionally, not all Slingshots require Charges, a lot of them utilize Pushes to get into position.

 

 

 

Decent support models - Francisco. + 2 df is great at keeping soemthign alive. Df8 Sonnia (for example) is much much harder for the necromancy to hit.

Lawyer can pass out Hard to wound, which helps counter the necromancys 3 headed.

Guardians can hand out Defensive.

 

 

"Weathering the Storm" is probably the most consistent manner of defeating the Sling Shots and all  these things assist with that. Models that end a models activation out right are also very good at stopping these kinds of tactics (The Arcanist Sub Zero upgrade for example).

[admiralvorkraft]

I played another game with my core Lucius list today;

 

50ss

 

Lucius - 7ss

Surprisingly Loyal

Secret Objectives

 

Mr. Graves

Doppleganger - Useless Duplications

2x Guild Rifleman

Guard Sergeant

Guild Lawyer

Performer

 

I was up against a Misaki list that basically buried everything turn one and popped up engaged with me at the bottom of the turn. The strategy was Reconnoiter, both my opponent and I took Assassinate and Frame for Murder. On my first turn I spread out, took defensive stances with a handful of things, threw down some Scheme markers for Lucius to play with, and killed the one enemy model my Rifleman could draw a bead on - a poorly deployed Hans (though not before he killed my other rifleman, and knocked a few wounds off the performer). Misaki covered the whole board in the last activation of the turn and everything unburied off of her.

Turn 2 I cheated a 10 for initiative, he spent the stone and flipped an 11. Yamaziko had unburied right next to Lucius, hit him with Master Tactician (even though I discarded for Highest Authority), and proceeded to drain my hand, then she attacked once and braced her Yari. I activated Graves to stop Ototo getting involved with Lucius, Ototo killed Graves scoring me full points for FFM, I tried to pull my remaining Rifleman out of combat with my Performer, Mizaki charged Lucius and offed him to score Assassinate in full. I ran my Doppleganger off into a corner to score Reconnoiter. 

The rest of the game was a shuffle in the center as his Oiran slowly overwhelmed my Lawyer, Sgt. and Rifleman. He scored twice for the strat on 4 and 5 ending the game at 5-4.

I was well set-up to receive a charge, but the charge never came. If I'd gotten luckier with the initiative I could have gotten something to happen, since my control hand was quite good. Spreading out definitely helped me to keep from getting locked down quite so easily, and having FFM in the scheme pool helped keep me from getting completely behind on points. The doppleganger can be quite survivable so long as your opponent doesn't go for a mixed arms approach, and Graves is a fantastic candidate for FFM.

Comments? Critiques? I know the list I was up against wasn't technically a slingshot, but it had a similar sort of fast engagement plan.

Also, thank you Omenbringer for confirming that the problems I've been running into around countering the move aren't mine alone. Putting more defensive buffs into play will definitely be a Thing. Hopefully when the guild constructs come out in plastic they look less awful (I'm looking at you Guardian, Warden).

Edited October 7, 2014 by admiralvorkraft

[admiralvorkraft]

In a completely unrelated side-note; the Guardian is Relentless, does that mean that any time Lucius walks within 18" of it I can Commanding Presence it for free? Or does it mean that it can't be targeted because it can't take the horror duel?

[Kadeton]

How do Yamaziko and Ototo bury themselves?

[admiralvorkraft]

I'm honestly not sure, 10 Thunderers as a faction haven't really caught my eye, so I just took it on faith that there was some upgrade that allowed it. I'll glance through the book.

 

The upgrade is Smoke and Shadows, the action is Shadow Stride. He wasn't flipping any cards for it though, so that might have been part of my problem.

Just reread it, and it specifies minions. This is what we get for playing too much proxy-faux.

Edited October 7, 2014 by admiralvorkraft

[Kadeton]

Plus the action can only be performed by minions.

[admiralvorkraft]

Duly noted. "Make sure your opponent is playing by the rules." Is probably a decent tactic as well...

[Adran]

In a completely unrelated side-note; the Guardian is Relentless, does that mean that any time Lucius walks within 18" of it I can Commanding Presence it for free? Or does it mean that it can't be targeted because it can't take the horror duel?

Firstly I'm pretty sure relentless only applies during its own activation. Secondly, if you ignore the duel, you will ignore everythign related to it, so you won't the downsides for failing or the up sides for passing, the duel just doesn't happen.

 

 

On a side note, alot of the boards I play on contain builidings so I am used to a high amount of Impassable terrain, and a low amount of Severe. Tactics I am used to may well be terrain dependant. Such as blocking routes.

 

I would break slingshots up into 2 different styles - early slingshots and late slingshots. In a late slingshot, the oppoennt has often relied on out activation to get the several key activations togetehr at the end, in which case you should have been able to set your crew up. Early slingshots (Vik-apult is one that can happen in the first 2 or 3 activations for example) don't let you positiion to counter, but give you a chance to counter attack the same turn.

I agree Each slingshot works on its own way, and you will need to know how it works to counter it. Some use charges, which is probably the most common as it gets you 2 attacks and movement for 2 ap, and you can stop them in one way, but if they have enough movement then you might not stop them reachign you to strike normally.

Place and push are harder to stop, but probably rarer. The Misaki one is place, but then relies on initiative.

 

Of course following the rules makes things easier...