Balance

[Justin]

Yeah he did admit he was getting some pretty "decent" cards every turn.

 

Still, even getting 2 every turn seems tough: Df 6 Wp 6 Armor 1, unimpeded, reduces enemy Df and can make interactions.

 

Last game I played was 50 SS and I summoned a rogue necromancy and a hanged guy... that's basically me playing 69 SS vs 54 because he got a single abomination in play. A big difference I would think?

 

Sort of.

 

One key thing to consider is value over time.

 

If you summon a model on the last Turn of the game, you will get far less use out of it than if you summoned it on the first Turn, as it will only get a single Activation (and be slow and unable to interact at that).

 

Where if you start with 69 vs 54, all of those models start on the table and get to take advantage of every Turn.

 

You also need to weigh it against masters which spend their AP killing opposing models. You could make the claim that Lady J killed 15 ss worth of opposing models so the game was basically 35 ss Vs 50 ss.

 

Not saying it is/isn't balanced. I'm obviously bias. Just putting things in perspective. Carry on.

[Omenbringer]

Summoning isn't always so potent.

 

For example Som'er is very limited in the models he can summon (exactly two types). To summon a full Strength Piglet requires a successful hit with his Pig Prodder (always dangerous to have Som'er anywhere near melee range), a suit (though he can provide it with his 0 action Do it like Dis! if he is willing to hinder the Bayou Gremlin's ranged attacks and has the suit in his hand to discard) and additionally requires him to "reduce the target model to 0 Wounds" with the attack. That is a lot of effort for that piglet even if he does use his own wounded Bayou Gremlins for targets.

 

For the Bayou Gremlins it requires a 2 SS upgrade, a Suit (which again he can provide via Do it like Dis! if he has the suit in his hand to discard), a healthy Bayou Gremlin (or more correctly one that has at least 3 wounds to keep it going) and an action. Add in that until those two Bayou Gremlin's are healed (both summoned model and target for the Get Your Bro action) they die to virtually any attack of Moderate or higher level. Until they are healed they are also hampered with their own ability use as well. To do this turn in and turn out requires tenders for both Som'er and the summoned models (i.e. Slop Haulers for healing, Piglets for movement up field, Skeeters for projecting Som'er's support, etc).

 

That is a lot of limitation for the summoned models.

 

I think the issues with summoning become major when their is a large pool to choose from, the summoned models are very durable or come out with full health, and/ or dont require a large investiture of effort or support to perform consistently.

[DeleteAccount]

To add to what's stated, yes, Nicodem is very powerful, but do keep in mind that he is also blowing his high cards, needs a suit/stone and dedicates a big part of his activation to doing it. Other masters remove models, he brings new ones, no denying it's powerful, but first off, if you actively want to do it first turn, you have to use Mortimer, use an upgrade like Corpse Bloat or his Favorite Shovel if you don't want Mortimer to just lag behind, ensure you get the corpse out, meaning at least an 8 and then the actual summon. So basically, I have to design my crew to take advantage of the summoning, I may drop some of the first turn momentum to get those models out and more importantly of all, Nicodem monopolizes the crew's hand, meaning the rest of the crew tends to kind of go around winging it and working with what they get.

 

Of course, it's powerful since if it wasn't, they wouldn't be used, but a bad hand can KILL a summoner oriented crews gameplay and it's frankly liberating using a Master who doesn't really need to monopolize his hand to work (Mei Feng for example can work perfectly with a 7 or two in hand, Lady Justice doesn't even need that nor Misaki).

[Jimbobovalsocks]

I think it's balanced. A master using his APs for summoning isn't using them for movement, interactions or combat. Since the aim of the game is to acheive your strategy and schemes, spending your turns summoning isn't going to win you the game. It's not something I've ever had a problem with during a game, and I often play below 50ss.

[Omenbringer]

I think it's balanced. A master using his APs for summoning isn't using them for movement, interactions or combat. Since the aim of the game is to acheive your strategy and schemes, spending your turns summoning isn't going to win you the game. It's not something I've ever had a problem with during a game, and I often play below 50ss.

Generally speaking though that is what the summoned models are there to do for the Master. Each new summoned model creates another scoring piece (especially if done early) and adds an activation (which is a potent tool in itself).

 

Som'er for example doesn't have a lot of these deficiencies. He has crew options that can move him about the board without giving up his more valuable actions (Piglets via Truffles), project his support up field (Skeeters via Som'ers Totem) and can easily summon three Bayou Gremlin's per turn for objective completion. This is in addition to the rest of the hired crew which delay/ distract your opponents pieces (Som'er isn't really known for his combat prowess after all). There is a reason Som'er has some of the heavier limitations on summoning and Bayou Gremlin's increased in cost (not that I necessarily agreed with that particular point). Much like last edition Som'er is a dark horse that can be absolutely dominating when piloted well (though he has a rather high learning curve).

[Erik1978]

Thanks for the input, guys, I appreciate it. Makes sense, and I DID notice how I sometimes didn't have card and/or corpses to summon and when I did, my attacks were left with no high cards to help them, good point. 

[dancater]

I think a critical thing to consider is the Balance relation to Learning Curve.

 

That is to say certain Masters and crews have a fairly obvious/simple "this is the evil trick" and are thus easy to play and get good value from very early (as with most things in Malifaux true dominance requires a long time but the good progress in a short time is the key). The summoner Masters are a generally good example of this, you summon many small/irritating/useful models and win by scheme en masse. Several of the blunt instrument smash face this way Masters are the same. It is worth noting that the generally simpler "win" strat is equally simpler for a good opponent to understand, anticipate and counter.

 

In contrast certain Masters have a much more complex/delicate arsenal of terrible doom. I've seen numerous examples of Collette and Jack Daw in a orgy of horror where the opponents have been literally slaughtered. But each of these Masters requires really understanding both their and the games critical mechanics to maximise them, I've equally seen inexperieced players essentially doom themselves trying to use both. Here it equally is noteworthy that because they are more challenging to play the harder Masters are more usually less well understood by opponents meaning that any opponent is at a serious disadvantage, even wih warning of "this is the strat" nature, hearing is different to looking across the game table as the engine of destruction revs up and going 'how the hell did that even happen?'.

 

So far I think that Malifaux and the community seems to have manufactured pretty solid balance in what is always an imperfect environment. There are no clearly uber dominant pieces, some are obvious-simple-powerful and others are nuanced-complex-horrifying. It classically falls to a delicate balance where the person who understands the crews on the tables best has the real edge, not the specific Master and crew but the insight into them. This for me is the way it should be.

 

Is the game perfectly balanced? No. But it cannot be it is evolving, multifacted (with essentially infinite variable list/crew/scheme combos) and does rely on a randomisation mechanic to create the uncertainty which will further magnify any imbalance as often as subduing it. So far Wyrd please hold the current 2E course because you've got me pretty damn pleased with the journey. :+fate :+fate

[rancor709]

Great statements Dancater couldn't agree more. The one bit I'll add is there is no correct way to win this game, it supports a lot of different playstyles and builds that have chance for success even domination of an opponent when played properly. The luck factor while present can be minimized a great deal through the mechanics of the game itself namely in the nature of how victory points are acquired. Support masters are very good this edition, as are damage masters, or the crafty scheme masters. Essentially there are a lot of options in this game, and it takes time to learn them all and even then the nature of the combinations in this game means the learning can take a bit. Summoning is a neat mechanic I play summoners a lot, and have lost many a game where I over summoned and undersupported. Its a balancing act always.

[brdparker]

I actually love playing Ironsides against summoners, because there's always a healthy supply of adrenaline and enemies to give Df bonuses to. More adrenaline, more death and destruction. I've had her stand in a crowd of two flesh constructs, a canine remains, and 2 belles and not get hit once (unless I wanted her to). I'd imagine there are other masters that feel the same way (I think McCabe has something that helps in crowds). I think there are enough archtypes that enjoy seeing the summoners that there's some play there.

 

Consider all of the triggers that say "After killing target enemy model, do this great thing" (i.e., gain a SS, heal a friendly, summon a something, push something, drop a scheme marker, draw a card etc.). More enemies, more chances to have that go off, and summoned models typically come into play with fewer wounds, with very few exceptions.

 

And Dancanter's post is spot-on. Kudos for the use of the phrase "orgy of horror."

[HowNot2Wargame]

Yep, I can testify that Jack Saw is an orgy of horror...Poor Perdita...

[wopr1986]

Hi everyone.

I've played only 4 games, 2 of the games against my friend who is also new.

I've played Nicodem every time and we both seem to feel he's over powered? Actually anyone who can summon a lot of extra models seems to have a huge advantage?

Why is noone complaining about summoning 20+ SS worth of models in a 35 SS or 50 SS game?

I mean: Ress. models don't seem to be inferior to other factions, which means those extra models are just a big advatage, aren't they?

Also Ramos, who summoned 3 mech spiders every turn, for 5 turns, that seem a bit off balance? 15 spiders

What are your thoughts? Anyone here with many games who can tell me why summoning Masters isn't way better than non-summoners? I realize my experience with the world's best game is limited but how can it not be crazy to summon 2 rogue necromancies to your crew, for free?

Anyone with AOE will usually do, had a game as sonnia vs Nico and killed all his summons as soon as they came in with extra collateral damage to toshiro. However he did keep summoning flesh constructs which I tried to tell him was a bad idea ca9 vs wp2 whilst she had papa loco's hold this was brutal.

Another game with the ortegas had francisco jump in and kill a weakened Mortimer and flurry nico to death perdita charged izamu ignoring armour so he folded in one activation, then papa loco went boom boom BOOM followed by Santiago with tormenta de plomo, after the dust had settled there was nothing left but corpse counters

[moxypoo]

Long post incoming!

 

 

Malifaux is hands down the best balanced wargame that I’ve played, and I’ve at least dabbled in X-Wing, Warhammer 40K, Warhammer Fantasy, tried out Warmahordes, and played some Dungeon Crawlers such as Descent 1^st and 2^nd ed.  I attribute this level of balance to the excellent playtesting (including the open beta) that Wyrd did. 

 

Before Malifaux, I was an avid 40k player.  That game has the most horrific balance I’ve ever encountered in a wargame, so coming to Malifaux was like a breath of fresh air.  Outside of a few corner cases (Hamelin and the Dreamer in M1.5E), I could pretty much pick any models I liked and have a reasonable chance of having a balanced game.  M2E only improved upon the balance, and it’s gotten to the point that I think I could pick a legal crew of random models and still have a chance at victory if I outplayed my opponent.  Your in-game decisions are more important than your list – this is the most important feature of a balanced game in my opinion.

 

I think that the Strategy and Scheme system is where the true balance lies.  The most common complaint I’ve encountered is from people who just try to kill opposing models and ignore VP while opponent focuses on VP.  However, playing to your victory conditions largely mitigates bad matchups.  Naturally, there will be some bad matchups, but I’ve learned that no matchup in this game is unwinnable.  It all comes down to outplaying your opponent, which is exactly where you want a wargame to be.

 

My last point is this: Nothing is overpowered when everything is.  I’ve been on both the giving and receiving end of some truly crazy combos in this game (Tara dropping Bete Noir, Killjoy, and the Nothing Beast in the enemy deployment zone Turn 1, Hoffman shooting a super-buffed up Rail Golem into my crew first turn, Ramos summoning 60 SS worth of spiders over a game, Victoria killing 40 SS of the enemy crew, Som'er summoning hordes of gremlins and discarding my hand, etc.).  The point is that every master has extremely powerful combos, so you’re often surprised when you first see them.  However, this makes one a better player by learning to adapt and overcome.

[default_108]

Guild Autopsies stand out as...I don't want to say overpowered or unbalanced as they aren't but more like you get more than you have to pay for them.  4 SS for a psuedo regen (embalmed) hard to wound, and the ability to summon Mindless Zombies, just seems like comparable models at that cost don't get quite as big a bang for their buck.  But that might just be my lack of experience among the different factions speaking.

[Dirial]

Guild Autopsies stand out as...I don't want to say overpowered or unbalanced as they aren't but more like you get more than you have to pay for them.  4 SS for a psuedo regen (embalmed) hard to wound, and the ability to summon Mindless Zombies, just seems like comparable models at that cost don't get quite as big a bang for their buck.  But that might just be my lack of experience among the different factions speaking.

I don't think that they get more bang for the buck. For the same SS cost, Terror Tots do Schemes. I never heard of them being overpowered, but I have lost games way more often to Terror Tot actions than to Autopsies. Also, Neverborn get Depleted for 4 SS. Ever tried to kill 4 Depleted? I takes forever, Autopsies never hold up.

 

I don't want to disregard your point, as Autopsies are good models. However, I don't think them too strong, or even the best 4 SS model in the game.

[Math Mathonwy]

One of the challenges of rating Summoning against other Master styles is that Summmoning is so easy to quantify. If all your Master does is summon 60SS worth of Spiders that is very easy to calculate and seems utterly excessive (110 SS vs 50 SS!).

But you don't summon them on the first turn, so if you count up the extra Spider AP summoned, that is different. Then, if you take a killy Master, you can calculate how many enemy AP were denied by killing models.

If you take a buffing Master, how much better your models become? How much more SS should they have costed since they are now taking extra action, getting to flips, healing up or whatever.

If you have a debuffing Master, how much less should your opponent's models have costed? If a model is Paralyzed and Distracted the whole game, how many SS should it have costed?

If you have a mobile Master that nets you Scheme VP, how do you take that into account in the 50SS vs 110SS numbers?

So yeah, Summoning is easy to quatify in a rough way and therefore may seem excessive (and indeed often is in small games) but that doesn't mean that it dominates other styles in any way.

[Bengt]

It's also notable that best case summoning (like those 15 spiders) require some quite high cards. Most summoned models also comes in with less than full wounds, so they are not necessarily worth their full SS cost.

[Adran]

Yes, you might look at it and go Wow 15 extra spiders. I'm 60 ss up, how can I not win?

But thats not really true.

Summoning 3 spiders a turn costs you 1 of only 4 cards in the deck each turn as well as a soulstone and a scrap counter.

It also will net you a total of 75 AP, 15 of which can not be used to interact, where as a normal spider will generate 10 AP, so you are down to the equivalent of 30 SS with restrictions on what they can do - 5 for the stones spent on the action so 25. (Spiders summoned on the last turn are generally not going to achieve much in most games) (Although it is possible that the summoned spider is in a better location to begin, so therefore may need less walk actions which might add to their value).

Each spider is only at half wounds. And you have used 5 Master AP in addition to any AP used to generate the scrap.

 

Still good, but less than half as good as you might have originally thought.

[Erik1978]

Still, each spider gives the opponent a Df 6 enemy that give -1 Df to all in b2b contact, and apart from the summoning turn, it can make interactions. It also has armor 1, to help it further.

 

I think the worst part is that you can make 3 from ONE scrap marker and each spider yields a new scrap marker. You can also heal them all quite easily.

 

Even without the interact option, all those extra models are getting in the way, blocking, herassing etc.

[Erik1978]

BTW he killed off some cheap thing to start summoning 3 spiders on turn 1. Electric creation or something?

[Adran]

Still, each spider gives the opponent a Df 6 enemy that give -1 Df to all in b2b contact, and apart from the summoning turn, it can make interactions. It also has armor 1, to help it further.

 

I think the worst part is that you can make 3 from ONE scrap marker and each spider yields a new scrap marker. You can also heal them all quite easily.

 

Even without the interact option, all those extra models are getting in the way, blocking, herassing etc.

 

As I said, Its good, but there are some often unrealised restrictions.

 

There is no way to garentee getting 15 spiders in a game, as you can not garentee the card required. Tryng to get it may well mean you have bought the arcane resevoir upgrade (2 extra ss cost) and spending SS to try and get extra cards. 11 is what Iwould consider the normal amount from a player who is trying to make as many as possible. (and even then they probably won't have more than 8 at any one time)

And he paid for the electrical creation, so thats another 4 ss cost. If you don't kill one of his iniital spiders he eitehr has to kill his own, or have no scrap on the second turn, or come up with another way to generate the scrap. Its not always practical to not kill enemy models, but then again there are several models that will gain bonuses from models dying, and summoning badly injured spiders will probably result in alot of death. Good is you are playing Reckoning, or have picked make them suffer.

If you can use 1 AP to kill a turn 1 spider on turn 2, thats 8 of those 75 max AP you have already stopped. If your opponet has to kill one of their own spiders to generate the scrap.

You can pick your crew to deny scrap counters, meaning he has to be much more careful with his activation order, or have no scrap availible. Its even possible for you to use his scrap yourself for various things (Guild, ressurectionist, Arcanist, Ten Thunder and Outcast can ceratinly all pick models that can use up scrap).  

 

I have had games where due to a slight misplacement on one of my models in deployment, I lost half my crew (25 ss) to Rasputina on turn 1.  

Ramos will struggle to kill that much of my crew during the whole game in the best of circumstances.

In a game where I do really well with Rasputina I will possibly wipe you out in turn 3.

In a game I'm doing really well with Ramos, I'll probably wipe you out turn 5, and have an extra 7 or 8 models on the table.

 

The second one will look more impressive, but actually the first one may well have got me a better VP score, as you've had less chance to score. Its just different masters do different things, not that one is better than the other.

[Vlad]

According to my expirience, some masters are much more powerful than others. F. e. Raspy with her resistance to melee attacks (via defensive trigger), immunity to Horror/Paralyze, blasts/pulses and Black Joker via upgrades. Also she has strong Ca attack with blasts, and if she is supported by Snow Storm she will get solid resistance to Sh attacks. I mean, it's good idea try not to confront her directly and complete non-killing strategies/schemes... but it's very hard when more than half of your crew is wrecked by her in one turn and you're not to be able to do her any considerable harm.
Sorry about complaining, but I definitely need a good advice.

[Dirial]

Vlad, Raspy is a strong Master, and so are all the others. If you want specific advice against her, it would be better to open a Thread asking that question. In this thread, we were discussing the overall balance, and I personally see no reason why she would be any stronger than e.g. Criid.

[Vlad]

Got it, thanks.

[Jimbobovalsocks]

I think it's the nature of the game. Many of the masters feel like they're so powerful as to feel broken when you first come accross them. It can be very dis-spiriting when you feel like 'I'm always on the recieveing end of other people's masters and they never seem to struggle against mine'. However, figuring out how to deal with the wide variety of different issues you come up against is a big part of the fun of the game. For example, I kept getting beaten by Collodi. I went away, thought about what I could do differently and asked some questions on here. In my next game I beat him hard (it was something like 8-0) and felt like the man! I do feel that there are loose 'categories' of master though and if you can develop strategies to deal with them then you are well on your way to becoming a good player. For example there are masters which summon, masters which hand out conditions, caster masters, shooty masters and mellee masters amongst others. If you can figure out how to deal with these different 'tricks' then it will be your opponent who's left feeling like your master is overpowered!!!

[Jimbobovalsocks]

Vlad, do start another thread though mate. I'd be interested to see what people have to say. Rasputina is one of those powerful 'caster masters' that can be a hard counter. Dirial's tone came accross harsh but he is a cool guy with an encyclopeadic knowledge of malifaux and he has helped my game a lot with his advice.