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McMourning and Co. Tactica

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As a question, how essential have others found Sebastian to be to a McMorning list? I bought my crew last edition and bought it piecemeal since many of the models weren't effective last edition. I only got nurses because I wanted to paint 1 and got a miss pack from a friend. So long story short I don't own a Sebastian, and don't current have any real hope of getting one with the lack of a secondary market. My question is from those who have played McMorning a great deal, is Sebastion essential?

I mean in a purely competitive sense, not in a "why certainly you can play and win without him" sort of way. I mean if you are trying to build the absolute best, most competitive lists for any specific scenario, how critical is Sebastian to those builds?

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On 12/1/2015 at 1:24 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

As a question, how essential have others found Sebastian to be to a McMorning list? I bought my crew last edition and bought it piecemeal since many of the models weren't effective last edition. I only got nurses because I wanted to paint 1 and got a miss pack from a friend. So long story short I don't own a Sebastian, and don't current have any real hope of getting one with the lack of a secondary market. My question is from those who have played McMorning a great deal, is Sebastion essential?

I mean in a purely competitive sense, not in a "why certainly you can play and win without him" sort of way. I mean if you are trying to build the absolute best, most competitive lists for any specific scenario, how critical is Sebastian to those builds?

Edits are in bold

Sebastian is a tricky model and probably the trickiest model of the bunch for Mcmourning's lists to play effectively due to the fact he is height 1, fairly squishy, and not the best henchmen out there statline wise. By no means do I consider him necessary. I want to say I dont want to consider any model necessary for a master, as they all can win without a model and auto picking models is bad for learning how to play and master the game. If given an all comers or competitive McMourning list, he should be included. He just has a learning curve, as does the whole crew, on learning how vantage points, terrain, pulses all work and how you can use them to your advantage. I originally had a ton of problems getting McM and Sebastian to work for me because I was new to the game and Nicodem spoils you to just ignoring or not needing those rules. But he brings alot to the table in that regard. 

Take this all with a grain of salt. I've been playing the game off and on for eight months sparingly, and this is just my opinion mixed with some statlines. 

Pros of Running Sebastian

  • He brings anti-shooting tech by offering pseudo soft cover (- to the attack flip) for shooting icon actions within 8", which is useful for moving your crew up the board vs guild and the like. Just requires a 4 of crows. I highly recommend using this early turn 1, by activating Sebastian first to pop this aura, then moving poison to McMourning for Plastic Surgery to give him free movement, if you cant Expunge a target. 
  • He, like McM has Catalyst which can help heal your models on their activation for the ones with Mithralization and equivalent abilities like Flesh Constructs, Rafkin, etc. In addition, if you took Plastic Surgery on McM and McM has at least one poison counter on himself, it allows McM to push 5" at the beginning of his activation, which is like gaining an extra AP on your master. Crazy good for getting McM into position to Expunge a target or start laying scheme markers. 
  • Induction is where many people think Sebastian really shines. Makes the opponent's take an additional 2 points of damage when poison ticks, due to Catalyst and at the end of the turn. Against Arcanists and other armies with alot of armor, this is key. Coryphee drop QUICKLY. 
  • He also has accomplice which makes pulling off the Transfusion -> Expunge combo with McM much more reliable if the opponent's have condition removal. 
  • And finally, since his melee is nothing to write home about, he does have the "poison bomb". Transfuse like 9 poison from a nearby Fleshie and walk up to your opponent for a TN 17 pulse 3" Df duel or suffer 4 damage, requiring a 7 on your part. Great for dealing with Ramos's spiders or Hamelin's rats. (I dont have cards in front of me to see if theyre immune to pulses)
  • He is the best Frame for Murder target, if that tickles your fancy. I usually load him up with the poison bomb and send him in. Damned if they do, damned if they dont. Especially juicy in turf war, since models will be clumped up anyway. Throw poison on the group, then send him in. They'll be taking an obscene amount of damage. Then toss the poison on another one of their models nearby for Induction and Catalyst damage. Force them to deal with him! He is the most scary model in your crew. He isn't a melee monster like Killjoy, he is just a dangerous support model that enables you to tear through their crew. 

Cons of Running Sebastian

  • Poor statline. 5 def and 5 wp means most models dont need to cheat to hit him, and he will probably be needing to soulstone for defense or to prevent damage if caught with his pants down. If the opponent wants to kill him, they will. Abuse terrain and the anti shooting aura he gives out as long as you can. Make hiring him worth it. Sybelle has many defensive measures to keep her alive (def 6, terrifying, hard to wound), and this spoiled me so when I ran Sebastian the first few times, he got shot off the table before I could blink!
  • Positioning him is also very tricky given his height and wanting to be in LOS of poisoned models to trigger Induction and Catalyst. Belles can help with this. Nurse can help with survivability by giving the little guy some armor if he is in danger. 

Factions, schemes and strategies to take Sebastian

In general I think if you're playing McM against Guild, outcasts, or Arcanists, he is an amazing pick. the anti-shooty aura helps against outcasts and guild, and for arcanists with their large swath of models that have armor, his Induction gets by that. Effigy's and Coryphee suddenly become incredibly squishy. 

Turf War really benefits bringing sebastian as well. Anything which forces the opponents to bubble up so they can be caught in his aura. 

Frame for Murder as stated above is a really great strategy for this. Vendetta might also be good if they decide to target him. Usually they will, since Rafkin, while dangerous, doesn't pose as much danger from the POV of the other side of the table. 

Carrion Emissary?

Honestly I've been wanting to try to play McM with Carrion Emissary over Sebastian or Rafkin for more Poison to apply at range with min damage 3 (with blasts), gaining a 0 action for cast 6, shooting, for 1/1BB/1BBB poison damage that applies poison to ALL models damaged, not just the initial target. Or his generic upgrade. I tried this once. Giving Belles positive flips to Undress and Lure makes them downright nasty models to deal with. Same deal goes for Nurses if you dont have the cards to cheat high to incapacitate enemy models. Guild Autopsies can shoot twice and start laying down some hurt for a 4 point model. But with his McMourning specific upgrade, ideally you target a flesh construct and cheat in something high to nail all of your opponent's models with poison. Then the emissary also gains + to attack flips against poisoned models. And he will give your nearby models +1 walk, which is just gravy. The only disadvantage here is that the emissary wont be able to carry a second copy of Transfusion, and that is a BIG thing to consider. Do you take Transfusion? Or gain the + to attack flips against poisoned models and a 0 to throw blasts around? 

Another thing one poster mentioned in a previous topic is the over reliance on Transfusion and the Expunge combos by new players. Particularly myself, as McMourning is quite flexible and this places him in a very narrow playstyle that requires alot of finesse and really bummed me out when playing him early on. I've been getting by with 1-2 copies of Transfusion these days. I definitely want one to be able to move poison when needed. Ie, more than once I've had an autopsy with 2-3 poison left on it, about to die from Burning or something else. I'll save those poisons and throw them on Rafkin/McM/Flesh Constructs. It depends on how much you value the poison as well. Is it worth 1ss to be able to  save poison? Or to move it without loading a model up with Rancid Transplant? I think it highly depends on how you value your AP, if you want to Expunge models, etc. Especially since some models spend 1AP to apply Poison 1-3. 

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I run Sebastian every time I play McMourning because I like to use his Aura to make McMourning even more manoeuvrable with 'That's the Stuff' pushes.  Generally I move up first turn and use McMourning's Injection to bring Seb along who Transfuses the poison back onto McMourning.  The anti-shoot aura is nice plus you have an option of another summon to bring a Canine Remains in and 'Destroy Evidence' is great.  I've recently (well, recently for games with my Ressers who I've not played for a while) run Seb with Nico which makes for a horrible combo as you can Destroy Mindless Zombies for two cards and a SS if they're within Nico's aura too.

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So based on people's comments, I went to a game store today and purchased some things.

Another Flesh Construct. Blister of Guild Autopsies. Also a random Carrion Effigy. Also the Wave 2 box so I had cards for the Autopsies.

Sadly, no Rafkin.

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What models would you generally play? And avoid?

Any suggestions on a base 50pt McMourning list?

 

 

Resurrectionists Crew - 50 - Scrap

Dr. Douglas McMourning -- 4 Pool
+Moonlighting [1]
+Plastic Surgery [1]

Zombie Chihuahua [2]
Flesh Construct [6]
Guild Autopsy [4]
Guild Autopsy [4]
Nurse [5]
Rafkin [7]
+Transfusion [1]
Rotten Belle [5]
Rotten Belle [5]
Sebastian [7]
+Those Are Not Ours! [1]
+Transfusion [1]

 

 

I like this. I have been doing -1 Belle, +1 Flesh Construct -1 Those are not Ours! 

How has Those our not Ours worked out for you? Do you just murder nearly dead, activated models? or canine remains you create from McM? 

I like double belle because it allows for easier expunges, to pull the opposing models into range and out of their master's auras. I've been doing double flesh construct as more sources of poison on deployment and as additional tarpits, sort of as a first wave to absorb shots from the opposing crew while rafkin/mcm/sebby get into position for turns 2-3. I've not been impressed with guild autopsies except for occasionally draining cards or applying poison. They mostly just help me out activate the opponent. 

I haven't played McM. as much as i'd like, so far "Those are not ours!" hasn't done too much but i still want to try it out some more.
I realy don't get to play much :-(

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Rafkin is one of the easier models to make from the TTB Multipart kit.

Im using one of my Orderlys from the starterbox, the "hushing" one who hides a syringe behind his back.

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Has anyone any experience with Shikomes with McMourning.

Ive not get the chanse yet since ive not had any models (got 2 now though yey!)

Primary job to hunt scheme-runners on the flanks and then swoop in charging poisoned targets. Giving out Poison with a built in trigger on its Melee attacks.

8 SS is alot but you get a quite good and fast! model aswell.

What would you take instead?
 

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Been playing with the good Doc for a few months now (not that many games tbh). I've done well. Even if i didnt win it was always close, and I have to say just playing the Doc is really fun by itself. Today I faced a good friend in a short game (35 SS) and he played with his new Lynch crew. Strategy was Turf War. Schemes: Assassination, Murder Protege, Protect Territory, Deliver a Message, LitS. Anyway... I got a sound beating. :D

The things Lynch does with his hand... its disgusting... :D

His band hits like a truck on steroids ("oh... fleshy with 14 wounds... here... have some brilliance..." and its gone). "Oh... but Lynch is just a support master, he doesnt hit that hard". Then proceeds to activate Lynch (last thing in his turn) and one-shot a nurse with that "inflict damage equal to hand size shenanigan...". Makes expunge look bad (it does need a lot more setup). 

Well... I'm sure its just the initial shock and I have to play a few times against Lynch to get some better measure of his abilities. I also have to say that my buddie is really good at strategy games  (better than me for sure) and has had many more games. But here I am, looking for some ideas/advice. Perhaps zFiend or any of you have some experience fighting Lynch and can give me some tips. They would be more than welcomed! ;)

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I haven't seen much discussion of Guild Lawyers with Rezzer beatstick/hybird McM...are they at all useful with him? Seems like stacking an additional HtW on him and other Rezzer beatsticks could be fun, in addition to the slow/Paralyze/Fees.

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9 minutes ago, Pyrflamme said:

I haven't seen much discussion of Guild Lawyers with Rezzer beatstick/hybird McM...are they at all useful with him? Seems like stacking an additional HtW on him and other Rezzer beatsticks could be fun, in addition to the slow/Paralyze/Fees.

The only reason I'd be tempted to take one is Reminder of a Worse Fate (6" aura, granting +flips in Horror duels) against Neverborn or Ressers, but I don't have any in-game experience with them.

I like them thematically (being a law student helps), but they don't really seem to bring too much other than that aura for Ressers. Stacking even more HtW is a bit of an overkill imho, usually the opponent will be in double negatives against HtW models anyhow. He only deals Slow/Paralyze in melee, and I'm not sure I want him to be there, and it also needs a moderate/Severe card, so the Nurses can do Paralyze more reliably. Multiple stacks of Fees can be fun, but I don't really see them devastating. Also they unfortunately need a Crow to hand out Poison and while McM is not that really hungry for them, the rest of your crew might need them more.
 

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On 2016-01-15 at 11:59 PM, huntroll said:

The only reason I'd be tempted to take one is Reminder of a Worse Fate (6" aura, granting +flips in Horror duels) against Neverborn or Ressers, but I don't have any in-game experience with them.

I like them thematically (being a law student helps), but they don't really seem to bring too much other than that aura for Ressers. Stacking even more HtW is a bit of an overkill imho, usually the opponent will be in double negatives against HtW models anyhow. He only deals Slow/Paralyze in melee, and I'm not sure I want him to be there, and it also needs a moderate/Severe card, so the Nurses can do Paralyze more reliably. Multiple stacks of Fees can be fun, but I don't really see them devastating. Also they unfortunately need a Crow to hand out Poison and while McM is not that really hungry for them, the rest of your crew might need them more.
 

I think i would go for a Mercenary Performer over Laywer most of the time.

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I'm new to the whole thing and I'm wondering about "Transfusion". I can only find this card in the wave1 pack. Why isn't this card in the wave2 anymore? Is it still allowed to play it? Do I just have to buy a wave 1 arsenal box?

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Huh?

think you are misunderstanding what the term "wave" means in the Malifaux context. In the shift from last edition to the current 2nd edition of Malifaux, the game was determined by the developers to be too big to relaunch all in one go, so they broke the model line and the new upgrades into multiple "waves" to make testing, balancing, and redesigning easier. Transfusion was in the first wave, so it was one of the first of the new upgrade cards to be introduced and tested. "waves" has nothing to do with legality or allowability to be used. Essentially think of the term wave as one of numbered releases, first wave, second wave, third wave and so on.

So yes, you are allowed to use it. Yes, it is currently still only available by arsenal pack in the first wave Resser pack. You won't find it in the second wave arsenal pack because it wasn't a second wave card. However you should still be able to get it in the general upgrade pack. Wyrd has released a pack of cards which contains all current general upgrades in the game, of which transfusion is one. Additionally, though not available at this time, War Games Vault is doing Print on demand stat cards for the Malifaux line, and while upgrades themselves are not currently available, it is very likely they will be available in the future.

Additionally, if you prefer to not buy the card you can always photocopy it out of the book and just use that if you prefer.

Does that clear up your confusion at all?

 

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So I find McMourning to be my weak spot, in that he is the one Resser master I cant make work (except against new players, which isnt fair to them). I find despite being able to out activate an opponent, or utilizing cover, most sniper models having + flips built in makes quick work of most of my models, particularly those with poison, before I can even get up the field. I also have issues with deployment (as I do with most masters). I feel I have a good grip on mechanics and what each model prefers to be doing, but I really fail to put any of that to practice. Usually I suffer turns 2-3 as a result, and begin to fight an uphill battle. 
 
So I guess my question for the group is, given any type of deployment, how do you usually run your units? Who is next to whom? 
If I was to define a standard list for McM that I take, it looks like this
McM
Chiuahua
Rafkin
Sebby 
Flesh Construct
Flesh Construct
Guild Autopsy
Belle
Nurse
 
While sometimes I play with subbing out the second construct for another autopsy/belle. I just dont love the autospies. They never seem to land a shot on anything, and arent really worth cheating up higher. While that's good for stripping the opponent's cards and they deploy with poison so you can grab that and move it around, I'm less than impressed. I like the flesh constructs as forward distractions. 
 
It may be me just playing the list wrong. Or the master wrong. One thing I find really lacking coming from WM/H are battle reports with detailed pictures of deployment/movement, so I cant find anything substantial on my biggest weakness! Maybe it's just some giant minature gaming secret. I just really suffer from it. If anyone could give me some tips, I'd appreciate it greatly! 
 
edit: played a game the other day and redeemed myself a bit with McM, taking 2 autopsies and 1 flesh construct, per the list above. I think it's alot of activation priorities, and making sure Sebastian is well hidden and can put his anti-shooty aura up. Then just hugging terrain until you can get upfield and start murdering things. Rafkin and the Autopsies pretend to care about doing things, but are just there to eat activations and cause mayhem. Same with the Flesh constructs. Belles lure expunge targets into position. 

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On January 21, 2016 at 6:47 AM, MEGAHORSE said:
So I find McMourning to be my weak spot, in that he is the one Resser master I cant make work (except against new players, which isnt fair to them). I find despite being able to out activate an opponent, or utilizing cover, most sniper models having + flips built in makes quick work of most of my models, particularly those with poison, before I can even get up the field. I also have issues with deployment (as I do with most masters). I feel I have a good grip on mechanics and what each model prefers to be doing, but I really fail to put any of that to practice. Usually I suffer turns 2-3 as a result, and begin to fight an uphill battle. 
 
So I guess my question for the group is, given any type of deployment, how do you usually run your units? Who is next to whom? 
If I was to define a standard list for McM that I take, it looks like this
McM
Chiuahua
Rafkin
Sebby 
Flesh Construct
Flesh Construct
Guild Autopsy
Belle
Nurse
 
While sometimes I play with subbing out the second construct for another autopsy/belle. I just dont love the autospies. They never seem to land a shot on anything, and arent really worth cheating up higher. While that's good for stripping the opponent's cards and they deploy with poison so you can grab that and move it around, I'm less than impressed. I like the flesh constructs as forward distractions. 
 
It may be me just playing the list wrong. Or the master wrong. One thing I find really lacking coming from WM/H are battle reports with detailed pictures of deployment/movement, so I cant find anything substantial on my biggest weakness! Maybe it's just some giant minature gaming secret. I just really suffer from it. If anyone could give me some tips, I'd appreciate it greatly! 
 
edit: played a game the other day and redeemed myself a bit with McM, taking 2 autopsies and 1 flesh construct, per the list above. I think it's alot of activation priorities, and making sure Sebastian is well hidden and can put his anti-shooty aura up. Then just hugging terrain until you can get upfield and start murdering things. Rafkin and the Autopsies pretend to care about doing things, but are just there to eat activations and cause mayhem. Same with the Flesh constructs. Belles lure expunge targets into position. 

I think deployment is very important for mcmourning. I will often have my nurse flanked by McM and rafkin. Activate her, she puts +4 poison on both of them. 

I like to use the big bases of the flesh constructs to block for mortimer. But I prefer good blocking terrain for the negative flips.

I dont use autopsy, though I will when the come out in plastic. Right now I sub in Crooked Men instead. It makes worth cheating if you can get an early blast off and spread out poison.

I just did a battle report for McM. Check out the battle report section. I'll be putting out more as I practice for my first large tourament.

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On 21 January 2016 at 2:45 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

Huh?

think you are misunderstanding what the term "wave" means in the Malifaux context. In the shift from last edition to the current 2nd edition of Malifaux, the game was determined by the developers to be too big to relaunch all in one go, so they broke the model line and the new upgrades into multiple "waves" to make testing, balancing, and redesigning easier. Transfusion was in the first wave, so it was one of the first of the new upgrade cards to be introduced and tested. "waves" has nothing to do with legality or allowability to be used. Essentially think of the term wave as one of numbered releases, first wave, second wave, third wave and so on.

So yes, you are allowed to use it. Yes, it is currently still only available by arsenal pack in the first wave Resser pack. You won't find it in the second wave arsenal pack because it wasn't a second wave card. However you should still be able to get it in the general upgrade pack. Wyrd has released a pack of cards which contains all current general upgrades in the game, of which transfusion is one. Additionally, though not available at this time, War Games Vault is doing Print on demand stat cards for the Malifaux line, and while upgrades themselves are not currently available, it is very likely they will be available in the future.

Additionally, if you prefer to not buy the card you can always photocopy it out of the book and just use that if you prefer.

Does that clear up your confusion at all?

 

Thanks a lot man!!! That makes it perfectly clear :)

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Just wanted to add a thanks for this info about McM here. I currently have played 5 games with him, inspired by the discussion in this thread. Also did a tournament, where I won all the games with him. McM is a beast! Some of my experiences, for those that might be interested:

  • I found that McM could do all the strats and schemes for the tournament very well. He's very mobile and creating extra models by killing enemies is very valuable. Especially the mobility; it just plain wins games;
  • Something I didn't expect, is that Expunge isn't the end to all; in a lot of situations I used the other 0 where you could push a friendly model and make a scheme marker. One of the things I realised I overused before, was Expunge. Still, Expunge is great, but it's chosing the right tool for the job;
  • McM can be squishy. When focussed he usually dies. I tried not extending him (too much), and it's very tempting to try for that combination to do something great, then be disappointed because your opponent manages to evade one of the duels you need to make. Also on models with low wounds its easy to accidently kill them with a melee attack :(
  • I wasn't really clear if poison damage ignores hard to kill (with Sebas close, ofc);
  • One game I fielded Shikome for the mobility, but found that using them for schemes only makes for quite an expensive model;
  • Taking two Belles and a Nurse is the core for my crew. Rafkin also made every cut so far, but almost died every game (so squishy!) and without making his points, imo. Nurses are insanely good;
  • Getting poison spread on a couple of enemy models is quite hard. Usually its one, maybe two, that get some poison before they die. I was looking to set up a bomb where I spread some poison on lots of models, and then rush Sebas in, but I just couldn't make that. I feel that you need to rely on a blast making poison. Rafkin can do that, but only at 6" distance (which is very hard as he tends to fold immediately when pressured), or the Crooked Man (which is much better then I gave it credit for!)
  • Decaying Aura (the you cant heal within 4", no ss reduction against dmg from this model) is so insanely good on McM. Had a game vs Mei Feng, and he just totally ripped her apart. She overextended, and McM sliced her like there's no tomorrow. She did well in undeath :)
  • Arcanists with the right upgrades can make a couple of models immune to lures (strip suits) AND conditions (poison). Without the poison the crew loses a lot of its sting. Luckily for Decaying Aura so that Kang stayed down, but otherwise I think that would be an uphill battle;
  • Choosing between the actions of McM is a great challenge sometimes. I feel Rancid Transplant is usually better than just stabbing things, until you factor in the healing stabbing does. McM needs that healing to stay topped up.

 

Just wanted to share my experiences. Cheers! McM ftw!

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20 hours ago, ttsgosadow said:

 

  • I wasn't really clear if poison damage ignores hard to kill (with Sebas close, ofc);

It can't.  It ignores armour because it specifically states so.

 

Glad you're enjoying the good doctor though, he is fun!

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Mispost - said some thing that should go in the Nicodem thread instead (given it's about him, not McM).

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Are people getting much use out of Evidence Tampering? Claiming scheme markers in 4" at the end of the game seems a great way to screw with people.

But.. that 2 stones is the difference between an extra scheme runner or not.

And Those Are Not Ours! Worth it?

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With the original book schemes that scored at the end of game it was useful, but now that most schemes score per turn it's more situational. I prefer to just give McMourning Decaying Aura.

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That's pretty fair.

Got a game with McMourning (vs Guild McMourning.. what.) next week. Will be my first game with him.

McMourning, Moonlighting and Plastic Surgery

Zombie Chihuahua

Sebastian, Transfusion

Rafkin, Transfusion

Flesh Construct, Nurse, Rotten Belle

3 Canine Remains

6 cache.

Workable as a starter list? Am I missing anything? Obviously I'll make modifications for relevant schemes/strategies.

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