Gamers Lounge Ep. 77 - Therapy

[HalcyonSeraph]

Fact, eh?

Lol.

Go fish.

Are you unfamiliar with the phrase "in fact" or are you just hung up on the word? Obviously it's my opinion. Go fish yourself.

[PierceSternum]

Lol.

In fact = in my opinion.

In fact, I think you are wrong, but its not important. So dropping it.

Edited July 23, 2013 by PierceSternum

[thebarbalag]

Deep breaths, everybody. This has become unproductive.

[CrouchingMoose]

Bill has all the right in the world to say what he thinks and feels, specially in his own channels (his blog and podcast). He did the episode by popular demand afterall. On the other side, there is quite a bit of hostility in there, I fail to see how others haven't noticed this. His hostility doesn't seem so much based on the rules themselves as much as how his current relations stand with Wyrd. I have no idea what happened, so I won't even pretend to guess who is "in the right" on that front, but it makes every ounce of sense to me that it taints his vision of everything, specially with all the passion he has poured into the game. It's not like a big number of us here haven't gone into a big hate diatribe about Games Workshop for example.

While I personally disagree with a lot of what Bill and Spencer talked about, I certainly found it interesting to finally hear both of their opinions fully expressed. And while I did notice a certain amount of disdain for Wyrd coming from Bill, I'm glad that he would stop himself before he started down the road of bashing either Wyrd or any of it's employees.

As for everybody snapping at each other, it's time to stop. As Razhem said, Bill's blog and podcast are his little corner of the internet. Don't like the opinion or get upset by it, then just leave because snapping and attacking others for their opinions never ends well, for either side that might be doing it.

[sharpobjects]

Wow, that was the first 3 hour podcast I have ever listened to! I always thought podcasts were similar to short stories. I have spoken with Bill numerous times over the last 2-3 years at each Adepticon and Gen Con but I wouldn't claim to know him personally very well. I have of course interacted with him on these forums over the years and especially during multiple beta testing. Bill has put a lot of blood sweat and tears into the game and has become one of the more knowledgeable players in the community. He is very smart and successful person in his own right. After listening to the podcast my initial reaction was he should have taken the high road instead of making so many personal jabs at Justin and Mack. He has a right to his opinion but from my personal stand point I would have rather he just stuck to discussing the game. Like so many of us I too want to hear what Bill has to say but about halfway through I felt like turning it off.

I took several pages of notes from the podcast and was prepared to go point for point with Bill and Spencer's opinions. There are several things pointed out by both of them that I agree with but many of it I did not. Instead of a long post detailing things I agree and disagreed with the podcast I thought it would be better to highlight something that Bill mentioned at about the 2 hour and 44 min mark that I feel drives home the most important point.

The real impact of how successful or unsuccessful M2E will become won't be seen until at least the summer of 2014. We need to see the actual finished product on the table and then spend several months after that playing a lot of games before we know if the game is something we want to praise or dismiss. Going even further we need to see the release of Book 2 before we can even make that proper determination. As has been stated numerous times on this forum, many of us play Book 2 masters still to this date. There is a large chunk of the audience waiting for open beta book 2 and eventually its official release. It's way too early for disdain or praise until the masses get the new stuff in their hands for a few months at least. I hate to break it to many of you but only a small portion of the player base read these forums on a daily or weekly basis. There are quite a few people out there that don’t know there is an Errata for V1.

I wouldn’t call M2E a success or failure but rather an undertaking. Wyrd from a business stand point has decided it needed to make this change and many of us have been involved in helping them develop the game into something we hope to eventually appreciate. Some have decided to throw their hands up in the air in the early stages. I am of the opinion that after investing a small fortune in 500+ painted models and my time organizing events that it behooves me to try and make this undertaking as successful as it can possibly be. Only the future knows what level of success or failure that will be.

[HalcyonSeraph]

While I personally disagree with a lot of what Bill and Spencer talked about, I certainly found it interesting to finally hear both of their opinions fully expressed. And while I did notice a certain amount of disdain for Wyrd coming from Bill, I'm glad that he would stop himself before he started down the road of bashing either Wyrd or any of it's employees.

As for everybody snapping at each other, it's time to stop. As Razhem said, Bill's blog and podcast are his little corner of the internet. Don't like the opinion or get upset by it, then just leave because snapping and attacking others for their opinions never ends well, for either side that might be doing it.

I seem to remember some people around here being pretty upset by the concept of "If you don't like it then leave" not too long ago.

Also, yes, as stated several times, Bill can record whatever he wants, and has no obligation to Wyrd to be balanced or fair. But when he posts it here for comments, he's going to get comments. And he doesn't need your help, he's pretty eloquent and perfectly capable of defending himself or choosing not to as he sees fit.

Edited July 23, 2013 by HalcyonSeraph

[Guy in Suit]

Wow all the butthurt being passed around this thread is even worse than that which was bandied about in the episode...

People need to lighten up and await the rebuddle!

Kudos to Bill and Spencer for putting their thoughts out there for the world to freak out over. You guys sure are able to strike a nerve!

[CrouchingMoose]

I seem to remember some people around here being pretty upset by the concept of "If you don't like it then leave" not too long ago.

I believe you missunderstood me. I don't mean leave here. I meant don't listen to the podcast or read his blog if your just going to attack or other agreeing with him.

[PierceSternum]

In fact, I dunno.

[Ender101]

I really enjoyed the episode Bill, thanks a lot for putting out I'd been in the camp of hoping you'd come back and do an episode.

While I didn't agree with everything you thought about the new edition, I thought that you and Spencer presented a good case for some of the things you pointed out (the 'most specific rule takes precedence' bit made me wince, I'd forgotten about that).

Overall I think that this was a useful episode and I hope that no matter which side of the line (or the fence you sit) that one finds themselves on, that they can appreciate the points presented.

[AgentRock]

So, I will admit this was kind of painful to listen to. I've met Bill and I like him. On the other hand I enjoy M2E quite a lot. I can respect a lot of the arguments made against the game in the podcast, but I can't say I agreed with all that many of them. Since both hosts have played games of M2E, it isn't as if I can say "go play some games, there are things you aren't seeing here," which is odd because a number of my local players that have voiced similar opposition opinions have, after actually playing M2E games, changed their minds. Still, Spencer and Bill quite obviously have their minds made up, and that's fine. I hope future episodes can put aside the anti-Mack snark a bit, as that was definitely cringe-inducing, and that the opposition opinion host gets a real chance to express opinion rather than being a token host there to be argued with and disproven like a political pundit co-host. I don't know how much more I'll listen to of the show, but that's mostly because I came to the Gamer's Lounge because it was the best done Malifaux Podcast available, and I can't imagine it will continue to be a Malifaux cast in the future if Bill is this anti the game.

And on an entirely personal note, it figures now that moving to Virginia so I could join in with some of their tournaments is a possibility, Bill's going to be done with it. Hopefully wrabbit37 keeps events like the NOVA Open going.

[wrabbit37]

And on an entirely personal note, it figures now that moving to Virginia so I could join in with some of their tournaments is a possibility, Bill's going to be done with it. Hopefully wrabbit37 keeps events like the NOVA Open going.

I won't be picking up the mantle with events in NoVA, but Skill-less Brian has just been made a Henchman in the area and will be working that front.

Edited July 23, 2013 by wrabbit37

[Lucidicide]

I won't be picking up the mantle with events in NoVA, but Skill-less Brian has just been made a Henchman in the area and will be working that front.

And there are some other (much much cooler) groups in NoVA anyway, so you don't need to worry about those smelly Huzzah kids.

[Judgeman]

You know what, nevermind. I've already sold off my Malifaux collection, have no intention of purchasing 2.0, and truly have no reason to come back to these forums ever again.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Judgeman
Keeping myself sane.

[Forar]

Wow all the butthurt being passed around this thread is even worse than that which was bandied about in the episode...

Err...

People need to lighten up and await the rebuddle!

Because if there's anything to get people to 'lighten up', it's referring to differing views as "butthurt". >.>

There are certainly some factually based statements that are incorrect or misinformed (Paired is less common but certainly not gone, etc), but there are also some fairly well reasoned differences of opinion (disliking the new Red Joker mechanic, or how soul stones are now used, etc). These changes, subtle and significant alike, are no less legitimate reasons to dislike a new edition then they are reasons to like the old one.

Yes, people are generally reluctant to change, but we do ourselves and the community a disservice by treating them poorly, at least when expressed in a clear and hopefully (but not always) eloquent manner.

Full disclosure; I have not listened to the episode in question (podcasts other than Zero Punctuation aren't really my thing), but in thread there's mostly been some reasoned discussion, so painting it all negatively comes across (at least to me) as needlessly antagonistic.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Forar

[Tuttleboy]

Sorry Bill and Spencer, I couldn't make it through this episode. I was looking forward to hearing why you're quitting the scene, but I couldn't make it through the sarcasm and Mack hate.

I think it comes down to the fact that the game is no longer fun for either of you, and I think that's a great reason not to pick up the shiny new toy when the old toy is still pretty cool. I hope it's not because of the fact that the new edition's designers are arsehats in your eyes.

I hope to be able to live up to the standard you set for Henchmen and tournament organizers. I really hope that you can find the passion for M2E that you had for 1.5 because that passion made the entire community better.

[IntereoVivo]

I hope to be able to live up to the standard you set for Henchmen and tournament organizers. I really hope that you can find the passion for M2E that you had for 1.5 because that passion made the entire community better.

This. I am not a henchie but I do recognize the excellent standard that has been set. Thank you both for your community building work, it has been a boon to all of us. I hope that in spite of your current thoughts on 2.0 and those involved in developing it you are able to come back to this community with the enthusiasm and passion that was so infectious in 1.5. If you can't we (well, I guess some of us) understand and wish you the best.

[PierceSternum]

I think it comes down to the fact that the game is no longer fun for either of you,

I think what they are clearly saying is that M2E is not fun for them. I do not believe they said much about disliking M1E... Which is STILL "the game".

[Justin]

Listened to the podcast. Obviously I disagree with your points about the game, but you're spot on about that Mack guy.

Try sitting next to him.

[Mack.Martin]

Listened to the podcast. Obviously I disagree with your points about the game, but you're spot on about that Mack guy.

Try sitting next to him.

I feel like this is the perfect time to start an edit war... but that's probably abusing my moderation privileges

[edonil]

...now I just want to see that.

[Mister Shine]

i feel like this is the perfect time to start an edit war... But that's probably abusing my moderation privileges

listened to the podcast. Obviously i disagree with your points about that mack guy.

He's a swell guy.

it begins!!

[nix]

And on an entirely personal note, it figures now that moving to Virginia so I could join in with some of their tournaments is a possibility, Bill's going to be done with it. Hopefully wrabbit37 keeps events like the NOVA Open going.

I am always up for a game of Malifaux Classic, and happy to run tournaments if there are 6+ people who want to play.

*grin*

[Manic Mouse]

The overhaul was certainly warranted for 2 big reasons. First, the game had gotten too cumbersome, too many rules, too many models, with no room to grow. Secondly, the game was already—even from book 1—too complex for casual gamers, and therefore limited its audience. I can't tell you how many players dropped it because it was way too complicated for them. You can't blame Wyrd for wanting to grow the player base.

Nobody's disputing that making the game simpler isn't a good business decision, we're arguing that it means the game isn't as good for us (the ones for whom 1.5 wasn't too complicated, who enjoyed complex masters and models).

For us gamers that Malifaux previously catered for, those who enjoyed the masters with novels for cards, what are we to play?

I bought the Mei Feng crew because of the complexity of the rail golem, what am I supposed to do with that crew now? Yes "casual gamers" can now use the Rail Golem effectively, but I'm not going to be getting the same enjoyment (or competitive advantage) from the new one. Should I be happy that my crew is both less interesting to play and that the skill gap has been narrowed? Same for the game in general?

I'm happy to play M2E, I still like Malifaux. But I think it's a real mixed bag personally - for everything it improves it makes something else worse, almost invariably to appeal to a broader audience. Some would call that pandering to the lowest common denominator. I always thought of Malifaux as The Artist rather than Transformers, but it's definitely taken a step in the Michael Bay direction in M2E.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Manic Mouse

[PierceSternum]

The number of rules on a card has nothing to do with the skill necessary to be good at the game, so I wish that people would stop saying that M2E is less skill.

The game "Go" has exactly ONE thing that can be done for each stone and I defy anyone to claim that game does not take more skill than just about any game on the planet to be great at.

Please throw "skill" out of the arguments. Its not about that.

If I read the M1E folks right, I think what they are saying is DEPTH of the individual models was important to them and as the models have become more focused, the depth is gone.

Its funny to me that people that LIKE the new direction would say something like "The models are more focused now".

And people that do NOT like the new direction might say "The models are more shallow now."

They are both saying the same sort of thing, its just whether they think those are good or bad things.

I am definitely starting to feel that the depth of the original cards could have been kept and that some rules clean-up and model-balance tweaking on the edges of good and bad could have been done much quicker and kept a larger number of people happy.

Edited July 24, 2013 by PierceSternum