Gamers Lounge Ep. 77 - Therapy

[nix]

Gamers Lounge Ep. 77 - Therapy is live on the feed. That's right folks, Gamers Lounge is back from Hiatus in some form and a new episode is released into the wild. I was joined by Spencer, previously of Cheated Fates fame, and we dive into a long overdue session discussing what we like and what we don't like about Malifaux V2. We both received a lot of requests for our opinions and in true Gamers Lounge unedited and unfiltered fashion, we express them.

As the topic is fairly controversial and appeared to be anticipated, we would love to hear your feedback and thoughts. Spencer and I love email (we can both be reached with our first name @ gamerslounge.coda.net) and comments on the podcast page, but also thought that a forum setting is a cleaner way to have a discussion.

[rancor709]

interesting topic. Glad you all had fun

[Boshea]

I agree on most of the points hit with soulstones and upgrades. I'm still on the fence with the loss of over boost, but auto-trigger is a fair trade for it.

[rancor709]

I still think if the soulstone gave a plus to teh attack and a + to the damage flip it would be far better.

[Boshea]

Maybe, but I'd rather not write another essay on my opinion about the new soulstone mechanics.

---------- Post added at 05:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------

Ha, I had a feeling it'd be my comment.

It was more in relation to the whole witch hunt thing of having a negative opinion than you playing Neverborn. That was more a terrible segue of the classic "Neverborn OP" opinion of 1.5. Its the faction I seemed to see the most "baseless" claims regarding M2E being terrible from. I'm fine with someone saying that X is bad and should be this, if they can give me a reason for why that is. I had my share of complaints regarding summons, soulstones, and the Viks. I didn't just go complain about them for the entire beta, I backed those claims up with my reasons and even games that contradicted those reasons. Its just saying that everything is bad, just for the sake saying everything is bad wasn't beneficial to play testing. I want to know why you don't like things.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Boshea

[nix]

Maybe, but I'd rather not write another essay on my opinion about the new soulstone mechanics.

---------- Post added at 05:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------

Ha, I had a feeling it'd be my comment.

It was more in relation to the whole witch hunt thing of having a negative opinion than you playing Neverborn. That was more a terrible segue of the classic "Neverborn OP" opinion of 1.5. Its the faction I seemed to see the most "baseless" claims regarding M2E being terrible from. I'm fine with someone saying that X is bad and should be this, if they can give me a reason for why that is. I had my share of complaints regarding summons, soulstones, and the Viks. I didn't just go complain about them for the entire beta, I backed those claims up with my reasons and even games that contradicted those reasons. Its just saying that everything is bad, just for the sake saying everything is bad wasn't beneficial to play testing. I want to know why you don't like things.

It was a really good comment, which is why I brought it up.

So did Spencer and I give our reasons why we did not like the things we did not like? Did we explain ourselves (well even?)?

[Boshea]

Fine opinions, I agree with a lot. I'd complain if I just spent three hours of just listening to you two repeat variants of "M2E is bad because it was dumbed-down". That's more at what I was getting at.

[nix]

Fine opinions, I agree with a lot. I'd complain if I just spent three hours of just listening to you two repeat variants of "M2E is bad because it was dumbed-down". That's more at what I was getting at.

Fair.

I do not believe "M2E is bad because it was dumbed-down" or even that V2 is necessarily bad at all. I do believe there are a fair amount of things I do not like, along with (to be fair) a number of things I do. The bad just outweighs the good for me, and its not a game I have enjoyed so far.

Who knows, maybe 8 games is the magic number to suddenly make me change my ways and fall in love with it. Doubtful but maybe.

[Boshea]

Like you mentioned on your blog we're just on opposite ends of the spectrum. We like and don't like a lot of the same mechanics and changes, just I find the good out-weighs the bad on my outlook. My biggest hope out of the new edition is to finally get more people playing the game locally. Hopefully when I get my hands on the new book I don't get screwed over by some external factor. So far I've made/planned three big pushes for Malifaux locally that all got scrapped by some external event. First was 6E 40k, second was an explosion in warmahorde popularity, and third was actually the M2E beta (because its hard to promote a system that is changing weekly).

Art is subjective, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on community in the next podcast. I'm been part of a lot of different gaming communities and each is very different.

[rancor709]

For myself the more I play the more enjoy it. The more the game reveals itself to me and the more I get those little light bulb moments. All that said its not all roses. But neither was my 1.5 feelings in general the positives outweight the negatives. Oddly the bits you dislike that make you feel more likes its another game are reasons I enjoy this edition more.

I think the greatest saddness I have with the new edition is that it doesn't have nearly as soft a landing for veterans of the old system. And that to me is a point of great frustration and consternation.

Again for me more good than bad, but I think there are something in there that could have been handled slightly different to leave a softer landing.

[DeleteAccount]

I still haven't listened to the podcast, but I am happy to see the gamers lounge up again. Hope you find enjoyment in the game itself after a while, and if not, well, interested to hear what new stuff your group gets into.

[WindlordRyu]

I agree with almost everything in the podcast, but...

The SS flips in 1.5 was just pure luck IMO, nothing anyone says can change my mind on this.

Things like Dreamer/Hamelin (especially pre-errata) and Collette being immortal made me feel like the game I just played was a waste of time, haven't encountered that in 2E yet.

A lot of the complexity in 1.5 felt like 236B, 66, 5CCCCCCCC, 6C, 6DD, 2DD, jC, 5DD, 2DD, jC, 5DD, 2DD, 214D type complexity.

Anything negative with with 2E is more than made up for by the removal of this IMO.

However, if I'm forced to buy an entire Rasputina Crew Box to get the Ice Golem I didn't buy in 1.5 because its rules were awful I will look at Wyrd the same way I look at GW.

[Dumb Luck]

Clearly, you need me on there to talk about the new faction.

[Odin1981]

I like what you both brought up Bill. Quite a bit of it is the reason I am taking a break from malifaux. I am still interested in how one of my crews that isn't out yet. But their isn't a allure of version 2 to me as well.

The main problem to me is how most/almost all figures are stripped down. 6+ months down the road one everyone gets used to how their figures work I believe there is gonna be a drop off due to using x I will always do y every time you use a model. To me their is a distinct lack of depth that will keep people coming back to a crew/faction in the hobby.

[Mach_5]

I'm about halfway through and I appreciate you guys taking the time to get your thoughts recorded. I will say I'm a bit disappointed this wasn't released as soon as the open beta started. You make some excellent points, and even though I'm generally in favour of most changes in M2e, I believe your input or at least your ability to make more people aware of some of the issues you see could have had a very positive impact on the game.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Gonna have to watch this one in pieces. I'll do an hour by hour breakdown.

[Pierowmaniac]

Enjoying listening to your viewpoints (Im about half way through the podcast) and whilst I don't totally agree with everything, some of those things mentioned are simmering at the back of my mind and I still need a few more games before I make a decision if I like them or not.

BTW totally agree Swarm tactics are going to be an issue going forward and Ive said that from day 1.

[Gruesome]

Swarm tactics are going to be an issue going forward and Ive said that from day 1.

You are not alone. It feels like people just sort of got tired of talking about it.

[rancor709]

I'm torn on it. I think on paper the swarm seems to function optimally I've not had it translate to the table as successfully if my opponent takes a balanced list. I see potential abuse but I also see in built tools to mitigate. I'd like to see a universal rarity of even if its only in the tournament pack to disease the swarm as an option. I.e. all models without a listed rarity are rare and u can exception in things like gremlins or rats make there rarity hirer.

[Gruesome]

So, you have not put 10 dogs, a vulture and a summoning-centric-upgraded Nico on the board?

I assumed you'd be amongst the first.

[nix]

I'm about halfway through and I appreciate you guys taking the time to get your thoughts recorded. I will say I'm a bit disappointed this wasn't released as soon as the open beta started. You make some excellent points, and even though I'm generally in favour of most changes in M2e, I believe your input or at least your ability to make more people aware of some of the issues you see could have had a very positive impact on the game.

All of my concerns were raised in some form (in person, in playtest, in reports, or in email) repeatedly during the playtest. I even made efforts during the playtest to "temper" my passion for those opinions. It was not always successful, but the effort was made.

Edited July 22, 2013 by nix

[NIGHTHATER]

Well it's easy for me to say I told people so, I've been an outspoken enemy of M2E sense the first ideas were released. Lets see why below...seeing this through guild eyes.

1. Stripped down masters and henchmen with upgrades can often be more or less the same except your now getting kicked in the soul and paying S.S.s for abilities worse then you had for free. You also get the added bonus of managing more cards, ya didn't it suck to have all the info on 1 card?

2. New stupid rules like charging giving 2 attacks...(so lame) I wanna move about 1 1/2 times my walk and get a +damage flip personally.

3. All the cool stuff that made the game unique from all the other miniature games out there is pretty much gone. Almost all the traits that made the game interesting are gone. Paired Weapons, Specific Aps (Melle, Ranged, Casting Experts) got blocked into 1 Ap, Magic Weapons are gone so Spirits are lame now, Slow to die, (Judges) Never Me, (Peacekeepers) Relentless, the family trait...and on and on. Sometimes its the little things like the Peacekeepers Faulty Circuits that add fun to the game, but all that kind of stuffs gone now.

4. The new V.P. system was the biggest letdown of all time. I hated the old system but now I have to keep track of V.P. each round and at the end of the game (Lame.) Also now people drop schemes tokens which is a poor system, are there not enough tokens in the game already Rezers?

Well I could go on and on but its pointless, I hate M2E and people already know this. About everyone wanted a balancing, but I just wanted a better balanced 1.5. All in all the time they wasted creating a new poorly running system could have been far better spent fixing and balancing an already great system.

1 Mans opinion....

Nighthater

Edited July 22, 2013 by NIGHTHATER

[rancor709]

I did Sonia blasted it off the board turn 3

[ninjahamster]

Well it's easy for me to say I told people so, I've been an outspoken enemy of M2E sense the first ideas were released. Lets see why below...seeing this through guild eyes.

1. Stripped down masters and henchmen with upgrades can often be more or less the same except your now getting kicked in the soul and paying S.S.s for abilities worse then you had for free. You also get the added bonus of managing more cards, ya didn't it suck to have all the info on 1 card?

Yes, you have to spend soulstones on upgrades, but the game has got bigger - so you're effectively getting them for free in the grand scheme of things - how can seemingly intelligent people not get this through their heads!

2. New stupid rules like charging giving 2 attacks...(so lame) I wanna move about 1 1/2 times my walk and get a +damage flip personally.

Can you explain why this is lame?, apart from you playing guild and therefore probably a shooty crew.

3. All the cool stuff that made the game unique from all the other miniature games out there is pretty much gone. Almost all the traits that made the game interesting are gone. Paired Weapons, Specific Aps (Melle, Ranged, Casting Experts) got blocked into 1 Ap, Magic Weapons are gone so Spirits are lame now, Slow to die, (Judges) Never Me, (Peacekeepers) Relentless, the family trait...and on and on. Sometimes its the little things like the Peacekeepers Faulty Circuits that add fun to the game, but all that kind of stuffs gone now.

This I agree with a little, but you have to admit it was getting fairly ridiculous the amount of special rules, abilities, and other stuff to keep track of during a game - most of which would only get used in a rare edge case.

4. The new V.P. system was the biggest letdown of all time. I hated the old system but now I have to keep track of V.P. each round and at the end of the game (Lame.) Also now people drop schemes tokens which is a poor system, are there not enough tokens in the game already Rezers?

Oh Noes, I have to think during the game instead of just killing everyone and doing my objectives at the end. If you hated the old system, but you hate the new system what do you want? whoever kills the most to win? - there's other games out there if you want to do that.

The VP system is one of the main draws to malifaux, the whole point that you don't just have to kill to win the game, that it's all about objectives, schemes, and things like that.

Scheme tokens may add more tokens to the mix, but now that everything just drops one corpse/scrap that reduces some of the amount of tokens on the board.

Well I could go on and on but its pointless, I hate M2E and people already know this. About everyone wanted a balancing, but I just wanted a better balanced 1.5. All in all the time they wasted creating a new poorly running system could have been far better spent fixing and balancing an already great system.

1 Mans opinion....

Nighthater

I almost didn't bother posting this as it's obvious you're not going to change your mind, but I couldn't resist pointing some things out.

Your whole rant just comes across as: I play guild - now I have to worry about schemes during the game instead of just shooting people off the board!!!!1!! Waaaaa.

[mythicFOX]

3. All the cool stuff that made the game unique from all the other miniature games out there is pretty much gone. Almost all the traits that made the game interesting are gone. Paired Weapons, Specific Aps (Melle, Ranged, Casting Experts) got blocked into 1 Ap, Magic Weapons are gone so Spirits are lame now, Slow to die, (Judges) Never Me, (Peacekeepers) Relentless, the family trait...and on and on. Sometimes its the little things like the Peacekeepers Faulty Circuits that add fun to the game, but all that kind of stuffs gone now.

I absolutely respect your right to your opinion and understand you're no fan of M2e, but that's a bit disingenuous.

Surely the key things that make MX different from the other games out there are; the fate deck, strategies and schemes, selecting your force after you know your objectives? These are the things that make MX unique as a game, not paired weapons.