Tiny Terrors format (aka, cheap stuff only)?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I've been trying to think of different variations of a Tiny Terrors format. Initially I tried doing it with a leader that's worth something like 7-8 stones, but it just doesn't feel like Malifaux without masters. So instead I arrived at this format, what do you think?

Updated 14/05/2021

• Master & totem + 35 stones.
• Other than the master, no models that cost more than 6 stones.
  • Can't hire them, can't summon, can't replace into them, etc. 6 is the limit.
  • Totems are excluded as well, so no Lord Chompy Bits! You get one badass on the table.
• No OOK tax.
• Normal keyword/faction limits apply (i.e., you can't hire from outside your faction unless it shares a keyword).
• No faction upgrades.
• Soulstone cache limit: 2.

Thoughts? Would this be a fun format? Reasonably balanced or horribly dominated by particular models?

I think the lack of OOK tax means you could actually do quite a bit of teching (opponent has a bunch of stitched together? Good thing I brought a bunch of distracted...)

Any obvious flaws to point out before I try to organise some games like this? Obviously it is a casual format so not necessarily meant for the extreme power-gaming, but I would potentially organise a local tournament for this if it takes off.

[SEV]

This sound fun... i think it's more fitting as a henchman leader format. 

I think the power disparity between masters and the other models on the table will skew the game heavily (just think about Seamus or Misaki in this format). This disparity will also be obvious if you can't tech against a specific master (because the 6ss option don't allow you to).

So all in all Henchman + effigy seems more balance (still something like Hinamatsu will be a beast in that format).

I'm willing to try this thoug (masters or henchman) because I always like alternative format.

 

[muraki]

I think it's an interesting concept.  I think it'd be fine with a Master Lead Crew rather than Henchman led (as someone who plays regular 35 stone games), cause, sure some masters will mow down those cheap models (looking at you j if they clump up) but with the lower stone count there'll be more 'oh geez, i gotta score points!' moves so unless a master is really good at doing both schemes/strats + killing stuff, some of your weaklings may sneak free.

My bigger issue is that some keywords just don't have a lot of low costed models, so it may feel like 'choose the best master + best cheap minions in the faction' super friend list.  Like, for instance, last blossom you can only hire torakage, while wastrel gets cryptos / hucksters / ruffians.  So any keyword that needs more internal synergy to function will be left on the drawing room floor as they may just not have the pieces that help it to function.  Losing the OOK cost would also make it easier for someone to just say 'guess it's (choose strongest master here) and 3 hucksters, lets go!', so I'd probably keep the OOK cost, even if it would make some keywords/masters even less viable.

Another idea could be that X% of your stones need to be minions, or you need X minions on your team, which will force more cheap model picks, but not stop you from getting what you need/want in higher costed models.  Cause who's to say that Dreamer/Carver/Serena/3 wicked dolls is any better than Dreamer/3 stitched/insidious/alp/daydream.  If anything I'd be more worried about the stitched crew as that's just way more useful AP than the carver/serena crew (not saying either crew is good, just was going through to see what you could make if you had a 'at least 3 minions, or even at least 3 minions of sub 6 cost'.

One thing to note (if you haven't done many 35 stone games) is 35 is actually a decent amount of stones for a game, as with a normal crew list, I tend to bring 1ish less model in a 35 stone game compared to a 50, and 3-4 less stones (as my cards last a bit longer, and I have fewer stone users).  With a 'all cheapos' list you'll only have 1-2 stone users (depending on the master/totem combo) so I really don't think you'll need more than 2-3 stones for a cache, which gives you a lot of cheap AP to throw around (hench that dreamer list where I would bring 8 models, with 1 insignificant one).

[NoisyAssassin]

Agree with Muraki that this seems like it would quickly just become "best master in faction + best cheap faction minions for scheming the pool" 

[touchdown]

Henchman Hardcore also warps hiring quite a bit. You kind of have to drop the idea that all crews will work in a modified format. Instead ask can all the factions make roughly balanced crews and can all factions make multiple fun crews.

What are you planning for pools? Full schemes and strats or a fixed pool or something in between?

[MrPieChee]

I like making it a henchmen leader thing simply because then you don't have to worry about losing some totems.

You could have a requirement that you must take the maximum number of one type of in keyword minion.

This has two bonuses - a large number of SS go into keyword, limiting shenanigans, and you actually get to use the full set of models you bought!

 

But, this is a great casual format!

[Vessien]

The format sounds like fun. Our playgroup is trying something similar, but with Henchman as leader and a couple mire tweaks. (Here is the link if you are interested).

I would limit summoning somehow, maybe even forbid it, because anti-summoning tech would rarely be available and at lower SS it is more impactful.

[Thatguy]

After going through all the totems in another thread I had a similar idea, but even smaller. Something like:

Tiny Terrors-

Pick one 5-6 stone model to be your leader. Your leader may use soulstones.

20ss pool.

Ignore OoK Restrictions.

You cannot hire models cost 5 or higher, other than your leader.

You can hire outside faction at +1ss

You can hire totems in faction at +1ss

Models can only be summoned via Demise Abilities.

 

The idea is still half baked though.

 

[Thatguy]

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Any obvious flaws to point out before I try to organise some games like this?

I think with a 15ss master and then no models over 6ss it will be less about little guys and not about your master running around murdering little guys. 

But that may be a feature more than a bug if that's what you're going for.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Wow, I did not expect such great responses! Really well thought out comments here, will try to respond to all the points raised (let me know if I miss anything).

7 hours ago, SEV said:

This sound fun... i think it's more fitting as a henchman leader format. 

I think the power disparity between masters and the other models on the table will skew the game heavily (just think about Seamus or Misaki in this format). This disparity will also be obvious if you can't tech against a specific master (because the 6ss option don't allow you to).

So all in all Henchman + effigy seems more balance (still something like Hinamatsu will be a beast in that format).

I'm willing to try this thoug (masters or henchman) because I always like alternative format.

 

I did worry about that, but then I also thought murder masters don't have as many good murder targets. There is only one badass on the board, and they can only cover so many parts of the board (like a master becomes a lot less powerful if they have to walk, walk, charge). So I think someone like Seamus becomes weaker than he appears.

However, I am quite worried about masters that can hunt other masters effectively. Titania for example can murder another master over a turn or two while staying pretty safe herself. I'd probably want to see how the meta shakes out, but suspect you are right there are probably a few masters that would be too overpowered in this format.

Another interesting thought is what if masters were limited to 2 AP? Then you'd have masters on the table but they'd still not be very game-defining.

That said, I kind of like the idea of a game where masters are absolutely game-defining, but you still have lots of little models being useful.

7 hours ago, muraki said:

My bigger issue is that some keywords just don't have a lot of low costed models, so it may feel like 'choose the best master + best cheap minions in the faction' super friend list.  Like, for instance, last blossom you can only hire torakage, while wastrel gets cryptos / hucksters / ruffians.  So any keyword that needs more internal synergy to function will be left on the drawing room floor as they may just not have the pieces that help it to function.  Losing the OOK cost would also make it easier for someone to just say 'guess it's (choose strongest master here) and 3 hucksters, lets go!', so I'd probably keep the OOK cost, even if it would make some keywords/masters even less viable.

My hope is that while this would happen to a degree, there'd be a lot of cross keyword synergies that could be unlocked. 

I've always wanted to do triple Rotten Belle with Molly, or Canine Remains with Reva for example. I do know Ressers have a lot more 'good' cheap models than other factions, so my view would be skewed. But also the minions that qualify as 'good' may change once they don't have to worry about being one-shot by as many other models. Frontiersman for example suddenly become a LOT better.

And even if you do superfriends, it will probably vary which ones are best in a given pool, so you may still get pretty good variety based on pools?

7 hours ago, muraki said:

Another idea could be that X% of your stones need to be minions, or you need X minions on your team, which will force more cheap model picks, but not stop you from getting what you need/want in higher costed models.  Cause who's to say that Dreamer/Carver/Serena/3 wicked dolls is any better than Dreamer/3 stitched/insidious/alp/daydream.  If anything I'd be more worried about the stitched crew as that's just way more useful AP than the carver/serena crew (not saying either crew is good, just was going through to see what you could make if you had a 'at least 3 minions, or even at least 3 minions of sub 6 cost'.

One thing to note (if you haven't done many 35 stone games) is 35 is actually a decent amount of stones for a game, as with a normal crew list, I tend to bring 1ish less model in a 35 stone game compared to a 50, and 3-4 less stones (as my cards last a bit longer, and I have fewer stone users).  With a 'all cheapos' list you'll only have 1-2 stone users (depending on the master/totem combo) so I really don't think you'll need more than 2-3 stones for a cache, which gives you a lot of cheap AP to throw around (hench that dreamer list where I would bring 8 models, with 1 insignificant one).

My thinking is it would be like a regular game in terms of model numbers, but everything is weaker. So I'm hoping 35 is right! Although I thought maybe there needs to be a soulstone cache limit so masters can't be invincible...

The Dreamer crew is an interesting example. Like Kirai, he loses his best summons and his totem, so I'm hoping it will balance out. Sandeep can't make golems. Som'er might be too strong, but won't have his critical enforcers and henchmen. So I would probably allow summoners at first and then ban it if needed. But summoning is definitely one of the top things on my list to watch out for.

4 hours ago, touchdown said:

Henchman Hardcore also warps hiring quite a bit. You kind of have to drop the idea that all crews will work in a modified format. Instead ask can all the factions make roughly balanced crews and can all factions make multiple fun crews.

What are you planning for pools? Full schemes and strats or a fixed pool or something in between?

This is a great outlook, I hadn't considered that! I thought every crew had to be viable, but even if half the crews were viable it'd be a great format. Thanks for the thought!

17 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

After going through all the totems in another thread I had a similar idea, but even smaller. Something like:

Tiny Terrors-

Pick one 5-6 stone model to be your leader. Your leader may use soulstones.

20ss pool.

Ignore OoK Restrictions.

You cannot hire models cost 5 or higher, other than your leader.

You can hire outside faction at +1ss

You can hire totems in faction at +1ss

Models can only be summoned via Demise Abilities.

 

The idea is still half baked though.

 

I thought about the small leader, but it just didn't have the 'epic' feeling of Malifaux. Probably worth trying it both ways, though. One issue with the OOK tax is you elimiante so many keywords because they just can't create a coherent crew with the restrictions. It also eliminates part of the point of the format (I want to see lots of things like Canine Remains on the table, but no way is anyone going to try them at 4 stones, even in Tiny Terrors).

Totems I wanted to include, but then realised how terribly costed some of them are... Luna/Iggy Pup is going to be in every TT/ES list for example xD

13 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I think with a 15ss master and then no models over 6ss it will be less about little guys and not about your master running around murdering little guys. 

But that may be a feature more than a bug if that's what you're going for.

Yeah, for me that is a feature. A single master can't murder everything on the table. Shenlong without Fuhatsu for instance can't clear a board. They can go for a "I kill lots of things" approach, but the opponent still has options to out-scheme is what I'm hoping for.

It may just degenerate and not work out, though. It is one of the biggest risks of the format (alongside summoning), I think...

[Maniacal_cackle]

So in summary, the two biggest issues appear to be masters and summoning, which everyone is quite right to point out... But I think I'll give it a go and then update the format if needed for it.

[touchdown]

I think there are a number of masters who could pretty reliably take out 2 models a turn in this format. Lady J, Misaki, Nekima, and Seamus all come to mind having the damage and movement to get you even if you spread out. Of course, your opponent would still have their master.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, touchdown said:

I think there are a number of masters who could pretty reliably take out 2 models a turn in this format. Lady J, Misaki, Nekima, and Seamus all come to mind having the damage and movement to get you even if you spread out. Of course, your opponent would still have their master.

Hmmm... Maybe 'no soulstone cache' is the solution.

These masters all become a lot less lethal and easier to kill if there are no stones.

I also thought maybe masters shouldn't be able to have upgrades (Seamus with whisper, Nekima with IR), but wondered if that is too clunky?

[muraki]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Hmmm... Maybe 'no soulstone cache' is the solution.

These masters all become a lot less lethal and easier to kill if there are no stones.

I also thought maybe masters shouldn't be able to have upgrades (Seamus with whisper, Nekima with IR), but wondered if that is too clunky?

I'd almost say just play sans upgrades.  Or upgrades on minions only (which is nearly the same thing).  Depends on the feel you're going for.

You could also do a fixed cache (say 2-3) or allow any sizes cache but only let stones be used for cards (so basically the same thing) cause nothing steams me as much as a radically bad starting hand. 

[muraki]

Also, this is a terrible idea, but if you're already playing with the rule set enough that you're changing hiring rules / messing with caches / etc.  And still want to do a similar feel for summoners... What about just replacing the summon action to a standard one for all summons?

Say 'back to the fight' - rg 3 stat 6 TN 15 mask.  Once per turn.  Name a model that was killed this game with cost 6 or les.  Summon the named model with slow anywhere within range.

Obvs you could just use the true summon skills and just limit it to a single model of cost 6 or less. But having it be something hired would allow you to rehire non-keyworded models (since you're dropping the keyword tax).  You can play with the stat a bit (most summon skills are cost +3ish hence the 15 TN) and could increase the range to 6 or drop it to base contact.  Could also drop the 'killed this game' and turn it to 'hired'.  I also purposefully left out the 'minion' as while there aren't a lot of cheat enforcers... Why not leave em back on the table.  Biggest issue would be big power totems, so maybe non-totem could be a restriction.

Obvs this messes with the game more than a little but would at least let your summoner masters still feel like they could do something like a summon (not that I think summoners are terrible in formats where they can't summon)

[Maniacal_cackle]

All good suggestions! Will start tinkering!

[Thatguy]

1 hour ago, muraki said:

Also, this is a terrible idea, but if you're already playing with the rule set enough that you're changing hiring rules / messing with caches / etc.  And still want to do a similar feel for summoners... What about just replacing the summon action to a standard one for all summons?

I'd be tempted to go even further. Like what if you made it completely asymmetric? Like one player hires a crew normally using a 30 stone pool. 

The other player selects 30ss of models cost 5 or less with no master. When one of their models dies, they can resummon it for free next turn on a board edge. Or maybe they can summon it anywhere outside of LoS from an enemy model, Left for Dead style. 

This would take a lot more thought. But I'm tempted to work on it. Kinda like the old old Killteam rules for 40k.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

19 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I'd be tempted to go even further. Like what if you made it completely asymmetric? Like one player hires a crew normally using a 30 stone pool. 

The other player selects 30ss of models cost 5 or less with no master. When one of their models dies, they can resummon it for free next turn on a board edge. Or maybe they can summon it anywhere outside of LoS from an enemy model, Left for Dead style. 

This would take a lot more thought. But I'm tempted to work on it. Kinda like the old old Killteam rules for 40k.

 

Neat idea!

You would probably want to include a mechanic for models to die on their own. Otherwise the master crew could just disable all the others and avoid killing them?

Maybe end of turn, kill as many of your own models as you like? Or kill as many as you like but draw one less card for each?

[Burnin4tor]

21 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I've been trying to think of different variations of a Tiny Terrors format. Initially I tried doing it with a leader that's worth something like 7-8 stones, but it just doesn't feel like Malifaux without masters. So instead I arrived at this format, what do you think?

• Master & totem + 35 stones.
• Other than the master, no models that cost more than 6 stones.
  • Can't hire them, can't summon, can't replace into them, etc. 6 is the limit.
  • Totems are excluded as well, so no Lord Chompy Bits! You get one badass on the table.
• No OOK tax.
• Normal keyword/faction limits apply (i.e., you can't hire from outside your faction unless it shares a keyword).

Thoughts? Would this be a fun format? Reasonably balanced or horribly dominated by particular models?

I think the lack of OOK tax means you could actually do quite a bit of teching (opponent has a bunch of stitched together? Good thing I brought a bunch of distracted...)

Any obvious flaws to point out before I try to organise some games like this? Obviously it is a casual format so not necessarily meant for the extreme power-gaming, but I would potentially organise a local tournament for this if it takes off.

Won’t this exclude Chompy Bits as a non master costing too much? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, Burnin4tor said:

Won’t this exclude Chompy Bits as a non master costing too much? 

Yeah, so you can't have the expensive totems. I think it is mostly summoners that have expensive totems (other than Anya), so it largely should balance out I think.

[touchdown]

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, so you can't have the expensive totems. I think it is mostly summoners that have expensive totems (other than Anya), so it largely should balance out I think.

Except for the Viks, Anya, and Lynch. I think you just have to live with that.

[eddy]

Maybe free effigy for masters with expensive totems?

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, touchdown said:

Except for the Viks, Anya, and Lynch. I think you just have to live with that.

Lynch is a summoner as well, but yeah Viktorias are hit pretty hard. But it'd be even worse to have two Viktorias in this format, I reckon 😜

4 hours ago, eddy said:

Maybe free effigy for masters with expensive totems?

That's a possibility!

[MrPieChee]

In most situations the master is cheaper if they have an expensive totem. I know dreamer has just had his price increased, but that doesn't make much sense, and it's difficult to price masters when they are normally free. Further to that, masters are never balanced without their totems, so saying some masters can't use their totem, is probably the same as saying "you can't use this master". It's not necessarily a bad thing to exclude some masters from some formats, but we should be clear that that's what's happening.

Double masters throws most of this out of the window though (in terms of pricing, and how that is achieved).

It's also worth mentioning that masters are balanced against their keyword, and that's the point of the OOK tax - to reduce the burden on testing/balance. If a model is balanced in keyword, then an extra tax OOK should mean nothing is too crazy. Of course this doesn't seem to be true with cheap models since they are very underused in many cases, so dropping the tax should be fine...

 

[Edit: well it turns out half the totems  7 SS  or above are cheaper - but since in most cases the totem is free, I don't think the cost really relates much to their power]

[Maniacal_cackle]

It is probably easier to just comment on each affected model since there are so few:

• Ikiryo - Kirai is a summoner, not fussed about her starting without her totem.
• Lord chompy bits - Dreamer is a summoner
• Sovereign - Anya's affected for sure, but Anya + Sovereign seems pretty overpowered.
• Banasuva - Sandeep is a summoner.
• Hungering darkness - Lynch is a summoner.
• Viktoria -  Viktoria is affected for sure, but double Viktorias just seems like it auto-wins the format.

So for most of these crews, I think they're probably still plenty playable (and possibly so powerful that they get summons banned). Viktoria and Anya being affected is unfortunate, but I think they'd break the format having their totems.