Malifaux alternatives formats

[SEV]

There's a lot of talk in different thread on Alternate format. Moreover, the world series events on vassal dips its toe in it (trying the 15 ook/ versatile limit). Here's my take on the topic (brace yourself,  it's going to be a long post and please indulge my English).

Comments and idea are welcome.

As I said in other thread, I think restrictions and alternatives format are a good way to balance the game at the competitive level (casual game will balanced itself by mutual agreement). It also creates design space and can refresh a stalled game.

As I said there's other way to change the balance of the game : 1) introducing new models ; 2) introducing new rules (having a new gaining ground each year is one of the thing that makes Malifaux competitive scene alive imo).

Alternative format is just an other tool. It's usually easier to implement and can be use to fine tune the game or quickly fix a stalled meta. It should alway be optional (i.e. a no limit format always exist and should be available for play). Formats will be played if people enjoyed them and will disappear if they don't (if there's alot of demand for the X or Y formats, a TO will use it but if those formats are disliked people won't register to the tournament and they will disappear by theirself).

Different formats are used in most deck building game for the reason mentioned above.

IMO everything should be done 

I think there's three big categories of alternate format :

1) restrictions to the models you're allowed to select (thin the 15 ook limits used in the WS February event or 1 master only allowed);

2) Alternative crew building mechanism (Think HH, as you can see this is often pair with an alternative rule set);

3) Changing restrictions, this is a broad category encompassing any restriction that changes from game to game (usually because of your opponent choices) or that are the consequences of previous choices (think scorpius format).

Crew building restrictions

Ban and restricted list

 This is the elephant in the room. I think this is almost as bad as errata (put I still prefer this option, since I think errata in tabletops games are the worst). People don't like to have their toys confiscated (rightly so, because we pay real money for them), but sometimes it's necessary to keep the game balanced. Think about it : if a model is so obnoxious that he heavily restricted crew selection, this models effectively ban the used of several other model. Therefore, by banning it you make the meta more diverse and effectively allow the use of a wider range of models...

Since, I really think this should be a last resort especially in a game with a relatively small pool of models like Malifaux.

SS hiring restrictions 

This is really hard to balanced (since you don't want to limit counterpick to heavily). I see 2 ways to do it : put a cap to the SS allowed to hire certain type of models (usually OOk and/or versatile, but that could also be for enforcer/henchman, etc.); change the tax limit (right now it's 1 for every models ook). For example by making it progressive (firs model +1, second +2, etc.) or by adjusting the threshold for the power of the models (5 or less SS +0, 6 to 8 +1, 9 and more +2)... 

Restrictions to the models count

This is the single master format. But we could think of a 2 minions minimum or 8 models crew minimum format (note : I'm not saying those would help the game in anyway). More practically for the balance of the game and diversity sake I could see a format limiting OOk/Versatile pick to 3 models. 

 Crew building mecanism

This is where th real funk begin (and where there's a lot of design space, especially in Malifaux). This can be used to balance the game, but mostly it's there to change you play experience and keep things fresh.

Draft format

I advocate for one form of draft format earlier (here). But there's several that could be imagine. Like a counter draft format (each player lock a master than bring at most 70SS of models, than you removed a model from you oponent and he does the same, so on until both players are under 40ss, than each player add his master and can removed models from their own crew to adjust their SS cash). 

Rotative formats 

This one is simple. You applied a rotation to the ropster allowed (in cards games it's done whe n new set are added, but the addition of new models are to scarce to used it as a rotation rules). This could come with a GG removing  specific crew or specific models from the format for a period of time. This could also combined really well with a thematic format.

Commoners or Elite formats 

I would like to see a minion only format... Mayne with a Totem as the leader for the funk! A pure elite format (no minion allowed) could be funny too. 

Rules braking formats

Once in a while it's fun to go for the most OP/unbalanced thing. An unlimited format could be play : no ook/versatile restrictions, cross faction hiring allowed. But that could also be something as simple as allowing Totems hired withou their master or giving access to all generic upgrade (in or out of faction... I just want to play with flush with cash too 😋). Those thing will make the game Unbalanced for sure, but if it's something you only do for a special event (usually low stake), it can be a lot of fun.

Changing restrictions 

I'm a big fan of this one when it allows for more player agency in tournament play.

Opponent banning

This is simple, your oponent as something to say on how you select or build your crew. For tournament play I like the master banning format. You and you opponent propose a list of 3 masters. After seeing each other list, you can banned one master and your oponent choose between the remaining 2. But that could also be something like models banning. For example, after you declared you crew but before declaring master, both player can banned up to 15ss of non master/totems models from your opponent declares faction. Those models can't be use for this game (this is quite cool, because you can ban annoying counter pick for your faction, generally powerful model like a rider or an Emissary or just crippled one keyword to discourage your oponent from picking it). All in all, because Master are not selected yet, you should have plenty of options. Because this is done simultaneously, there's a lot of mind game involved too.

Open information crew selection

Instead of having a hidden crew selection, we could think of a crew selection process that is do e while you know what your oponent doing. For example : you only declare a faction. Than you and you oponent pick one model at the time in their faction (including master), going back and forth. You can stop as soon as you master is selected. You can't do a selection that will bring your crew over the 50ss limits. That would be cool, because you can try to just out tech you opponent but you can also bluff early by taking a minions that signal a master (like a Crooligan that signal molly), let you oponent tech against this for a pick or 2, than change gear completely (picking McMourning for example). 

Well that's it for now. I'm sure you'll have plenty of other Ideas. Let me think if some of those formats appeal to you (or if they don't why)... I would also be down to test some of this on vassal if someone is interested.

Finally, note that I didn't talk about how to implement those formats (some are quite easy, some are quite hard, but all are doable). Many of this encourage owning a large collection (which can be a problem irl), so they're all easier to play on Vassal or the like.

[RisingPhoenix]

I don't think hiring restrictions improve balance, for the simple reason that they already favor "the rich".  The best masters tend to have the best keywords.

For instance Sandeep has Elementals and Academics, which gives me a hiring pool of 13 models, and includes fast scheme runners, support pieces, mass card drawing, and huge beaters.  I fairly comfortably could solo master Sandeep with 0 points OOK for an entire tournament.

Now Euripides has Savage, which has access to 7 models.   This keyword gives me 4 melee beaters, 2 short range attackers/melee beaters, and one piece of total junk. Notably it includes no scheme runners, no long range options, no real healing, and a general lack of utility.

So, um, we have a format where we brutally nerf Euripides access to things like Dopplegangers, Serena Bowman, Wicked Dolls, and the Hooded Rider, while Sandeep can hire on the one model he needs to give himself some flexibility without issue.  Wow, poor Sandeep isn't going to have to suffer under Euripedes evil yoke anymore, right?

Iron Scorpius

Is great.  Except for new players.  New players are like uber fucked.  It moves this game from $200 barrier to entry to a $400-500 one, easy.  If it wasn't for that, then I'd say "make every damn tournament Iron Scorpius" because it's great fun.  But watching a new player's face fall when they realize they can't really do it is an annoying thing.  I wish there was a good way to portion that out.  Maybe just some sort of 'new player' prize for people who haven't played in tournaments much and place well?  It'd involve some central tracking, but we're already kind of doing that a bit. 

All in all, Iron Scorpius is the one version of this "Warhammer 40k comp points" I actually liked. 

Master Banning

I think this works if you just get to ban one master in a faction.  Otherwise masters like Ironsides, Jack Daw, and the like are going to just not see the table, because if it's "name 3 ban one" they'll only be unbanned in situations where they're going to get absolutely dumpstered.

The Best Answer

Actually nerf and buff a few of these problem children.  Just... not GG1 style.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Iron Scorpius

Is great.  Except for new players.  New players are like uber fucked.  It moves this game from $200 barrier to entry to a $400-500 one, easy.  If it wasn't for that, then I'd say "make every damn tournament Iron Scorpius" because it's great fun.  But watching a new player's face fall when they realize they can't really do it is an annoying thing.  I wish there was a good way to portion that out.  Maybe just some sort of 'new player' prize for people who haven't played in tournaments much and place well?  It'd involve some central tracking, but we're already kind of doing that a bit. 

I'm a big advocate of making all Iron Scorpius tournaments on vassal, or make them like qualifier events. 

In general, tournaments are a great stepping stone for new players, so Iron Scorpius is a no-go for me locally. Wouldn't ever organise it.

2 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I don't think hiring restrictions improve balance, for the simple reason that they already favor "the rich".  The best masters tend to have the best keywords.

For instance Sandeep has Elementals and Academics, which gives me a hiring pool of 13 models, and includes fast scheme runners, support pieces, mass card drawing, and huge beaters.  I fairly comfortably could solo master Sandeep with 0 points OOK for an entire tournament.

Now Euripides has Savage, which has access to 7 models.   This keyword gives me 4 melee beaters, 2 short range attackers/melee beaters, and one piece of total junk. Notably it includes no scheme runners, no long range options, no real healing, and a general lack of utility.

So, um, we have a format where we brutally nerf Euripides access to things like Dopplegangers, Serena Bowman, Wicked Dolls, and the Hooded Rider, while Sandeep can hire on the one model he needs to give himself some flexibility without issue.  Wow, poor Sandeep isn't going to have to suffer under Euripedes evil yoke anymore, right?

That's true to some degree, but also some OP masters heavily make use of OOK & Versatiles (Colette, Ivan, Cadmus, Etc). Additionally, limiting OOKs & Versatiles favours new players/players with smaller collections.

That said, I don't think the 15 SS limit should be a regular thing xD

[RisingPhoenix]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That's true to some degree, but also some OP masters heavily make use of OOK & Versatiles (Colette, Ivan, Cadmus, Etc). Additionally, limiting OOKs & Versatiles favours new players/players with smaller collections.

That said, I don't think the 15 SS limit should be a regular thing xD

Certainly true, but again I think this probably should be addressed by buffing the performers crew, especially models like Carlos, Ice Dancers and Showgirls, and transferring some power off the core models (like the Duet and Colette).  I agree the new player help is very useful, although I think it's the most help for players in the weird intermediate zone where they've played quite a bit, but don't really have a fleshed out collection - no offense to new players, but you rarely need to work especially hard to beat them, they often waste AP like mad. 

That being said, it'd probably help them more to tune up models, especially models in core boxes, so we no longer have problems like Ironside's core box, where you could reasonably field nothing but your totem from the core box and have a great Ironsides list.  I refuse to touch the Explorer's society with a 10' pole, that's some real Games Workshop tuning over there.  All I'll really say is their cheap models are as good as other factions cheap models should be, and their expensive models are... better than that. 

 

Maybe for variants, it'd be better to look at ones that make you think and play differently, like Iron Scorpius.  For instance, what if we had:

• Special weird terrain rules like gun turrets, clouds of thick smoke that moved (completely blocking terrain), treasure chests with various minor boosts (health potions, card potions, action restore potions, soulstones, etc.)
• Weird starting conditions, like neutral forces, like lurking animals that will go after things that get near them.
• A bonus for 'being sneaky' that rewards you VP for not firing too many guns/explosives

These would all really force you to think differently about the game in fun ways. Not 'restrict lists' but 'force us to stop thinking with our forum brains, and start adapting with our on-the-ground brains'. 

I could even see something like a grab bag of minor rule variants, and you pull out two before a game.

[MrPieChee]

Here's a curve ball from a new player:

Minions are sold in boxes of 2-4, but it's very rare I see more than one of any specific minion in lists.

So, why not make additional minions of a type already picked cost one less ss?

This has some big outliers where the minions are already great (or really cheap). Also 1ss is quite a lot, but the lack of granularity in model costs makes it difficult to do anything else. I think that perhaps the emphasis on activation control might help balance this? It could be restricted to a single minion type?

In tournaments with new players this will help, since they will have duplicate models that more experienced players with bigger collections won't be using.

 

 

A more complex system could be to give card draw (with a discard?) when activating the second and successive minions of a given type. Obviously with the restriction of it being only models bought at crew selection (i.e. not summoned models). This would give players a boost early on, but as minions die, remove this bonus.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

Here's a curve ball from a new player:

Minions are sold in boxes of 2-4, but it's very rare I see more than one of any specific minion in lists.

So, why not make additional minions of a type already picked cost one less ss?

This has some big outliers where the minions are already great (or really cheap). Also 1ss is quite a lot, but the lack of granularity in model costs makes it difficult to do anything else. I think that perhaps the emphasis on activation control might help balance this? It could be restricted to a single minion type?

In tournaments with new players this will help, since they will have duplicate models that more experienced players with bigger collections won't be using.

 

 

A more complex system could be to give card draw (with a discard?) when activating the second and successive minions of a given type. Obviously with the restriction of it being only models bought at crew selection (i.e. not summoned models). This would give players a boost early on, but as minions die, remove this bonus.

 

I think this is a really cool mechanic and would be a great thing to include, except it makes list building quite a bit more complex and people already find it confusing enough.

But as a fun variant to do, could be neat! 3 Belles are already close to being worth 15 stones, being able to hire 3 for 12 does appeal! Or would it not increase the discount (is the cost 5-4-4, or 5-4-3?)

EDIT: Some minions are nuts strong/always taken in multiples, though. So I wouldn't be surprised if this broke something. Mindless zombies for example would be pretty sweet to snag 5 for 3 stones xD

[extremor]

As much as I appreciate your thoughts and value them it seems to me that Malifaux is a way too complex game for these general rules. There are so many different models and synergies that there will be new problems rising from generally changing the game (15ss cap/ minion cost reduction etc) It hurts to say but I think the most urgent way to balance malifaux is errata and buffing/nerfing. 
 

BUT it is soooo much fun to read your thoughts. Please go on. I love it. 
 

 

edit: I like the idea of optional alternate settings a lot

 

[MrPieChee]

I wouldn't increase the cost with more minions - the first is full price and all others are one less.

The advantage of having such a good app supporting the game is that this could be done very simply. It does need some support for custom formats though, and a way to group crews by format.

I'm also a big fan of fixing problems with erratas where possible. Again, with the app, it's very easy to push updates to players. 

However, even with a good set of erratas, I think that due to the nature of the game, there will still be a tendancy to take singles of minions. I don't think that this tweak would be used in high level games, but could be popular in new player friendly tournaments and, if officially supported, in casual games.

[Maniacal_cackle]

One issue with relying on the app is a lot of players don't use it. I know people here prefer to play with cards (and even order the GG packs to have the scheme and strategy cards).

So calculations should be doable manually.

[RisingPhoenix]

32 minutes ago, extremor said:

As much as I appreciate your thoughts and value them it seems to me that Malifaux is a way too complex game for these general rules. There are so many different models and synergies that there will be new problems rising from generally changing the game (15ss cap/ minion cost reduction etc) It hurts to say but I think the most urgent way to balance malifaux is errata and buffing/nerfing.

BUT it is soooo much fun to read your thoughts. Please go on. I love it.

edit: I like the idea of optional alternate settings a lot

 

I agree any format change would just break the game differently, but what if we did a grab bag and pulled them out?  Something like you pulled from a bag that had

 

Strange Robots - You start with a construct that counts as any minion or enforcer construct (NB: a few generic "robot" models are available if you don't have one).  You pay SS for it as if it were in your faction and keyword.  You cannot hire any other non-master constructs

Endless Waves - Attach a "Reinforcements" upgrade to all minions you hire.  When a minion with Reinforcements dies, summon a new one in your deployment zone

Surprise Encounter - You start with 20 soulstones worth of models.  During the first, second, and third round you may deploy new models worth up to 10 soulstones.  For each soulstone you don't spend during rnd 2/3/4 deployment, you may add it to your cache or carry it to a future round's deployment.  The game lasts 6 rounds.

Shadowy Figures - Instead of deploying your units as normal, deploy blank bases with the names of the units written on the underside.  All shadowy figures have Mv 6 and take 2 actions, and may take any general action (track focus etc. with the base).  Whenever you declare an action or target a base, reveal the name underneath the base, and replace the base with the unit.

 

Etc.  Each one of those would DRASTICALLY change the game, but without knowing them it'd be very hard to plan and 'pick the right models'.  It'd mostly come down to just playing it out on the table.

 

 

[MrPieChee]

Love endless wave, surprise encounter and shadowy figures!

This feels very much like an evolution of the game variants already in gaining grounds.

It would be great to see more of these 'wildcard' options in the next GG...

[Adran]

Malifaux used to have a very indepth terrain/event set up, but it was largely ignored (certainly in Tournements and probably most of the time in casual) where you picked a location for each game, each area had a 1-13 chart that told you the strange terrain/event that would happen this game.  and then flipped to see what extra rules you got in the game. So, for example, if you fought in an arcanists lab, there might be a strange glowing machine in it that caused a possible good outcomes if you interacted with it, or you might find the place was filled with Arcing lightening so on some turns everything was hazardous, where as if you fought in a wastland you may get sand storms or healing Oasis. 

In addition there are things like Blind deployment from previous editions (take a deck of cards and each pick a suit. take as many cards of that suit as you have models in your crew. Shuffle this new deck together and take turns in placing face down cards from that deck on the table. Once all the cards are played face down, take it in turns turning a card face up, and the person who matches the suit deploys a figure there, continue until all figures are deployed). 

You can even try going back to the original individual scenarios, where each crew was doing its own strategy. 

There are plenty of story encounters out there as well.

This would all require a little work on updatign old rules to M3, but not a lot. 

 

On the whole restrictions and alternative formats don't balance a format, they just alter the balance, and force people to experiment. In a shor time the new overpowered crews/model in that format will show in the same way they do in GG events. It just might be a different collection of names that make the list. m

[touchdown]

In 2ed, Oxphordian Mages were considered really bad and in an effort to balance them, they got a 0 cost upgrade that reduced their price by 1 if you hired all 3. So reducing the cost for taking multiple of one model is something that's been done before.

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, touchdown said:

In 2ed, Oxphordian Mages were considered really bad and in an effort to balance them, they got a 0 cost upgrade that reduced their price by 1 if you hired all 3. So reducing the cost for taking multiple of one model is something that's been done before.

In M1 I think I remember Guild hounds had a rule that every second one got a ss discount when hired (One cost 3 ss, 2 cost 5 3 cost 8  and so on)

[Thatguy]

Idk about alternative forms as balance. It seems to me that they shake up a meta more than create balance. 

My example would be Henchmen Hardcore. I like the format a lot for the locked model count and speed of play. But it also has a set strategy and schemes. So for example Montressor and Bad Juju and tough henchmen do better since Assassinate is always in the objectives. Henchmen Hardcore isn't balanced as much as now weighted in a new direction.

I would like to see more alternative formats like Henchman Hardcore and see them expanded/supported. 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

We did a Slow Grow League where your model pool was tied to profile cards so if you picked, say, Moon Shinobi, you could pick all three of them for your force.

I can't remember the exact particulars of the league (the number of cards we started with, the size of the games or such) but it was a good way to set up a slow grow league and I could see it codified into a format that could be used for leagues but also for tournaments if one were so inclined.

Also, depending on whether you pick the new card(s) before or after knowing the Strat and Schemes and the opponent for the next game it would change the experience quite a bit. Naturally heavily favors "all-comers" type Masters.