Melee beaters problem in m3e

[darksoul281]

3 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

How do you get matures turn one outside of Nekima? I thought they could only do their free action to eat a marker once?

With vasillisa

[darksoul281]

3 minutes ago, Plaag said:

not everyone here knows it)

Excuse me, but you seem to get some results with Nekima, would you mind sharing some tips with me, so I understand better how to play her keyword?)) 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, darksoul281 said:

Excuse me, but you seem to get some results with Nekima, would you mind sharing some tips with me, so I understand better how to play her keyword?)) 

i played against her and have seen some shit) like not activated nekima in my deployment 1 turn and 3/5/6 dmg hurts; try to play more aggressive, stack focuses with your bbs, use good position for u; and talking abt ressers-they are the weakest faction in the game, but some good players can play with it insane way because of their mind

[darksoul281]

9 minutes ago, Plaag said:

i played against her and have seen some shit) like not activated nekima in my deployment 1 turn and 3/5/6 dmg hurts; try to play more aggressive, stack focuses with your bbs, use good position for u; and talking abt ressers-they are the weakest faction in the game, but some good players can play with it insane way because of their mind

I think the same about ressers xD

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

I'm not a fan of the "if you are killing a XSS model, you are not killing something more important" argument. That point could be made for objectively terrible picks like Bultungins or Bloodwretchs, but not for that they are worth it.

But being said that, I don't really think BBS need any buff tbh. Their defense and mobility are in line with the keyword, they see a lot of keyword and OOK play, and the Focused pulse plus being able to get replaced by a mature make them very solid models.

I see your point, but I think its not quite right. I would be happy if my opponent is killing bad picks rather than my good models, but that's clearly bad play on their part. If they are playing well and still killing your support pieces rather than the beaters then that says something about the potential power of the support pieces. 

So I think it is a valid counter to the argument "a model is bad because my opponent always kills it really early. " which is similarly flawed. 

 

 

 

[Daniel Walker]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

I would be happy if my opponent is killing BAD picks rather than my good models, but that's clearly bad play on their part.

 

 

 

It's not about bad or good pick, but about allowable losses. If bbs or other model is your "combo piece", then you're fucked up. But if you trying to use that tech just as backup plan, or the model that your opponent desperately-want's-to-kill, it's really win-win situation.

[Adran]

32 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

It's not about bad or good pick, but about allowable losses. If bbs or other model is your "combo piece", then you're fucked up. But if you trying to use that tech just as backup plan, or the model that your opponent desperately-want's-to-kill, it's really win-win situation.

I must admit I try to never have a critical piece, so every model in the crew can be an allowable loss. But I know others don't play that way. 

[Daniel Walker]

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

I must admit I try to never have a critical piece, so every model in the crew can be an allowable loss. But I know others don't play that way. 

There're some fancy lists, which are impossible without critical pieces( 

[Ogid]

6 hours ago, Plaag said:

i played against her and have seen some shit) like not activated nekima in my deployment 1 turn and 3/5/6 dmg hurts;

I'm interested in this part. Was it a rougarou pushing twice or Savages using Shattering Shove? or was it any other thing?

6 hours ago, Adran said:

So I think it is a valid counter to the argument "a model is bad because my opponent always kills it really early. " which is similarly flawed.

I've seen that argument before (and I've even used it), but I realiced I don't like it because it gives few useful information... It's a valid counter, but not on it's own

If a model is good enough (like in this case imho) but is played too agresive, it'll be focused down. If a model is too weak to fulfill its role (like in the other cases I named), it'll be obliterated accomplishing nothing. Same result very different case.

I rather see how much it is played in the keyword and OOK and how much it impacts the game in addition to how easy or difficult it's to slay.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

I'm interested in this part. Was it a rougarou pushing twice or Savages using Shattering Shove? or was it any other thing?

I've seen that argument before (and I've even used it), but I realiced I don't like it because it gives few useful information... It's a valid counter, but not on it's own

If a model is good enough (like in this case imho) but is played too agresive, it'll be focused down. If a model is too weak to fulfill its role (like in the other cases I named), it'll be obliterated accomplishing nothing. Same result very different case.

I rather see how much it is played in the keyword and OOK and how much it impacts the game in addition to how easy or difficult it's to slay.

yes, eurepid tp

[Ogid]

I thought about a version of that combo long ago but I haven't tried it yet, good to hear it's legit.

[Cranky Old Man]

On 9/10/2020 at 11:02 PM, Plaag said:

i played against her and have seen some shit) like not activated nekima in my deployment 1 turn and 3/5/6 dmg hurts; try to play more aggressive, stack focuses with your bbs, use good position for u; and talking abt ressers-they are the weakest faction in the game, but some good players can play with it insane way because of their mind

Why do you say ressers are the weakest faction? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

35 minutes ago, Cranky Old Man said:

Why do you say ressers are the weakest faction? 

Yeah this raised an eyebrow for me. There's even a thread in this forum complaining about how much stronger Ressers are than Neverborn xD

Pretty respectable UK players have swapped to playing Ressers this edition, and I've found them to be monstrously strong (although I'm one of the strongest players in my meta, so that could be clouding my judgement).

[Plaag]

10 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah this raised an eyebrow for me. There's even a thread in this forum complaining about how much stronger Ressers are than Neverborn xD

Pretty respectable UK players have swapped to playing Ressers this edition, and I've found them to be monstrously strong (although I'm one of the strongest players in my meta, so that could be clouding my judgement).

gg1 means u nead to make a lot of interacts, droping markers, ressers havent got dont mind me, good card draw; they have few options

[Saduhem]

10 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah this raised an eyebrow for me. There's even a thread in this forum complaining about how much stronger Ressers are than Neverborn xD

Pretty respectable UK players have swapped to playing Ressers this edition, and I've found them to be monstrously strong (although I'm one of the strongest players in my meta, so that could be clouding my judgement).

I think there's a movement away from Ressers in favor of Guild/Arcanists actually.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

gg1 means u nead to make a lot of interacts, droping markers, ressers havent got dont mind me, good card draw; they have few options

Fair enough. I play Molly (with loads of card draw, leaps and By Your Side to scheme even if engaged, etc) and Reva (who has some crazy options for ley lines especially). I always thought interacting was one of our strengths, especially compared to Neverborn who seem super weak on the interacting side of things a lot of the time. I guess it's a bit different this season where Don't Mind Me is now possibly comparable in power to leap, while leap was clearly vastly superior last season.

[Plaag]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Fair enough. I play Molly (with loads of card draw, leaps and By Your Side to scheme even if engaged, etc) and Reva (who has some crazy options for ley lines especially). I always thought interacting was one of our strengths, especially compared to Neverborn who seem super weak on the interacting side of things a lot of the time. I guess it's a bit different this season where Don't Mind Me is now possibly comparable in power to leap, while leap was clearly vastly superior last season.

all leaping models in ressers are not so tough(archie, manos, necropanks) and could do only 1 marker and/or interact if engaged; some models like first mate, vasques, stalker, desper live and do their work better; also ressers dont have any non-scheme marker removal than molly, its too bad; thats why symbols is very hard strategy; intel tokens without dont mind sometimes very hard to remove; few irridusible and armour piercing dmg

[Ogid]

Not everyone has to have access to all tools but work well with the ones given to them, I personally don't want a simmetric game where every faction has dopplegangers of each other good models or tech... and in fact RES has some crazy tech not that common in other factions and a lot of Masters in a good place. I don't think they are in a bad place scheme wise... if the main comparing point is Colette, then everyone is bad at scheming.

Archie, Manos and Necropunks aren't squishy by any strech... Necropunks are point by point one of the best schemers in the game, avaliable OOK and summonables by Schtook (who also has other shenanigans to drop scheme markers btw). And RES has also a lots of good movement tech...

A few crazy things they can do taking in count schemes from the top of my head:

Yan-Lo can make that his 5SS minion get replaced by very powerful henchmans, now those henchmans are the targets for schemes like Vendetta or Catch and Release. Turn 4 or 5 Yan-Lo can score take prisioner with his 8-10'' push very easily (and Yin is also very good for that).

Tough crews and also very good bubble crews to control the center in pools with Claim Jump and Leave your Mark.

Let them bleed is hard versus them, not only the faction is hard as nails and have good healing; but also summoning a few zombies in obscure areas is enough to make almost impossible to score the second point of it versus them.

Research Mission is easy with so many corpse markers and the emissary creating coffins.

A lot of fast/jumpy/by your side models, some of them with good punch, to score things like Breakthrough, Sabotage or Spread them out. Also Seamus... who has a ludicrous ranged attack, but also in practice 4 APs and Secret pasage to drop 2 Schemes per turn. And consuming a corpse marker he can ignore limitations of actions... with the right set up he may drop a scheme marker/pick intel while engaged (and Seamus may make schemes that declare particular models very tricky to play versus them)

I'm sure the faction has their weaknesses as every other one, but the worst faction? I really doubt it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Not to mention tons of abilities to reposition enemies, the ability to self bury models for lodestones, etc.

Symbols are pretty hard to lock down with melee (you need 2" engagement range to do it, spread all over the map). But Ressers can use Toshiro to summon Ashigaru on them which gives awesome coverage.

And of course Molly has basically everything you listed as necessary for a good crew xD

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Not to mention tons of abilities to reposition enemies, the ability to self bury models for lodestones, etc.

Symbols are pretty hard to lock down with melee (you need 2" engagement range to do it, spread all over the map). But Ressers can use Toshiro to summon Ashigaru on them which gives awesome coverage.

And of course Molly has basically everything you listed as necessary for a good crew xD

molly is not so strong and they can score schemes and strats very hard way

[scratchnsniff]

Been following this with interest. For me it's great that some people like and dislike nekima for what she does, suggests that style is a key part of the game which is one of the things I love about it. 

Same with Molly, she's probably one of the best masters I've encountered. Card draw, scheming, maneuverability, killing, shes a pretty great package and I hater her 😊.

 

[Nagi21]

16 hours ago, scratchnsniff said:

Been following this with interest. For me it's great that some people like and dislike nekima for what she does, suggests that style is a key part of the game which is one of the things I love about it. 

Same with Molly, she's probably one of the best masters I've encountered. Card draw, scheming, maneuverability, killing, shes a pretty great package and I hater her 😊.

 

Been following the same and I've come to two conclusions:

1) Nekima is at the bottom tier of masters that are focused on high damage output in melee due to a lack of defense, and her style being too easy to counter and build around for most factions/crews.

2) Plaag is a troll that probably plays with a weak meta, and challenges any disagreement with "u mad, fite me".

[Maniacal_cackle]

I don't think someone has to necessarily be in a weak meta for their opinions to be different.

Different metas have different strongest crews (and even if the game could be solved for 'strongest' crew, there would likely be multiple Nash equilibria for those who use Game Theory).

For example Molly is an absolute powerhouse in a meta with lots of Kaeris and Rasputina, but I can imagine she is quite weak in a meta full of Shenlongs. Similarly, Nekima is often quite a hard master for me to beat, as mature nephilim match up well against my ressers.

[ShinChan]

21 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Been following the same and I've come to two conclusions:

1) Nekima is at the bottom tier of masters that are focused on high damage output in melee due to a lack of defense, and her style being too easy to counter and build around for most factions/crews.

2) Plaag is a troll that probably plays with a weak meta, and challenges any disagreement with "u mad, fite me".

2 is not an option since he's in the final of the Vassal World Cup and if I recall correctly, he didn't lose any games

[Saduhem]

30 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

2 is not an option since he's in the final of the Vassal World Cup and if I recall correctly, he didn't lose any games

1 isn't an option either with, pardon me if I'm wrong, @Kharnage kicking buckets of tail with Nekima. I still wouldn't remotely put her in the category of masters that need toning down though. She's already suffered enough :}