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Melee beaters problem in m3e


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Hi, I speak about this problem a lot of times in my community (and we talk about this with Felix the winner of UK national of the past year, because he is my close friend) and we think the dame about this... Okay I start to explain

The Melee beaters models in this case masters because this Is the "most powerfull Melee beaters" Are a hungry machine of eat soulstone and cards, I speak about nekima because Is one of the masters that I play More times and have very serious problems.

Nekima Is a Melee model with 5 defense and no defensive triggers with 12 wounds this Is a big problem because the most damaging action in the game attack to defense

The second problem of nekima Is she is slow, she fly yes and have a stat 6 in this movement but she havent fly with me or other action to move, if you compare with other Melee masters like lady justice with leap or viktoria with the battle tempo or other actions and habilities to move

The mechanic of black blood Is nice in the theory but a squeezy model with a auto damage mechanic Is not a great idea

And the last think about this Is the posivility to make extra attacks or More damage triggers, for example, lady justice have Positive in damage, critical and one trigger to hit other model, vikis have a trigger to make other model hit the target etc

This Is not only the problem of nekima, but I think that nekima Is one of the worse Melee master of the game for all I say, I try to play a lot of times in a competitive spot but always have problems to win games (I win games with nekima but Is not easy xD) 

I think that the community undestand the problems of Melee masters before that says bad words or speak about this. 

Ty wyrdos

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Hey, it's ya boi, Kharnage, back at it again with the God Empress Nekima. Good news to those of you who were dismayed when I faltered in my faith of Nekima; I have been restored to belief that she is

I find it amusing that the Neverborn rag on Nekima compared to Lady J and the Guild rag on Lady J compared to Nekima That said, I do think both keywords could do with a helping hand (not much th

Aight, just so everyone's aware, it's Schtook vs Colette Symbols of Authority, standard deployment Breakthrough Take Prisoner Spread Them Out Claim Jump Runic Binding Crews: Schtook

She is pure mobility and damage... and pays the price in her defense; she also needs a ton of enablers to work well. The few times I've used her the list was built around her with a Focused engine, some way to more her forward and inititiative bonuses; it worked well for me. However 2 big disclaimers: I'm not talking about top tables of big tournaments and I also play her OOK, not as leader.

The reason I don't play her as leader is because there are very good defensive tech to stop her on her tracks that will be included if the pick is telegraphed. So I pick her with masters that don't alpha strike to build an alpha strike list around her that my oponent is not expecting; I don't know how she would work versus someone expecting her.

In my experience she needs to strike first and in a back to back activation (and even use hit and run tactics retreating in the second one; I've even stonned her Shove Aside trigger to get extra distance while retreating). Her damage potential is quite high (as long as she has IR, Focused and she isn't versus H2W); but as she can take very little retaliation without folding like wet paper after eating the whole cache, the list has to be built around her and the execution is very important.

Also I'm not sure in what point Nekima as leader is in competitive, but she got some nerfs the last GG, I've seen very little play in the Vassal league (and she lost that one game) and one of her best players left her for Von Schtook after GG1... It doesn't look promising. She maybe needs something, however balancing models fast and killy like Nekima is hard, those might go from weak to opressive real fast... 

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Kharnage (one of the experts on Nekima) has largely given up on her, so I imagine she is a bit underpowered now (partially because of the strats/schemes).

But one thing to note about her is that terrain will make a massive difference to how good she is. 2" engagement range and flight are key parts of her defensive kit, and if you've not got terrain that is helping you abuse that, it can be tricky.

For example, a dream play with Nekima is:

  • Charge something
  • Attack 
  • Shove aside trigger
  • Attack two more times
  • Move behind a building so she isn't accessible for a retaliatory attack.

Then she's dished out 9 damage while staying super safe (at stat 7, so pretty easy to get that damage flowing), or more if you're using focus tricks like Ogid suggests. 3 attacks + 16" of movement is quite a bit of action.

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I find it amusing that the Neverborn rag on Nekima compared to Lady J and the Guild rag on Lady J compared to Nekima :D

That said, I do think both keywords could do with a helping hand (not much though!). For what it's worth, I'd probably rate Justice over Nekima but the Nephilim models over the Marshal models.

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I think the 'melee beater' is just a hard master style to build. As you gotta balance 'paper bag' with 'terminator'. 

Also feels like m3e is a game where if you overextend a key piece or 2 early... Well it's getting blown off a table with a few lucky shots.

I do find it interesting that if a master is created more melee they always tend to fall into more berserker (high damage low def) than sword + board (lower damage more tarpit + def).  Tho I guess some of the bubble of grossness masters or stuff like titania could feel a bit more like a defensive tarpit beater....

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The issue with melee beaters is that the damage spike bump they get (min 3) is not worth all the flexibility you lose.

McCabe has a decent damage output (probably more than he should), df6, gives upgrades, has ride with me

Von Schill has a decent gun, gives upgrades and is tanky as hell.

The melee beaters that work are: Misaki (lower damage but teleport and 6/7 stats)

Ironsides (built in triggers, tons of aoe buffs in keyword and a lure)

 

Viks, Nekima and Lady J are all basically 2SS behind because they need the faction df up to not die very fast.

All 3 of those also have a keyword that doesn't offer them much support

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24 minutes ago, touchdown said:

Isn't being a tarpit Ironside's whole deal? Also Mei Feng is a pretty tough melee master.

It is. but she is so overbuffed (2 built in offensive triggers, potentially 4 actions, built in df trigger with an decent autohit, 14 Wds, Injured Workers Act, Caught in the ring, unionized) she works.

I don't think Mei is a good damage dealer but she's Df6 Armor +1 base and her crew has insane mobility.

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2 hours ago, trikk said:

The issue with melee beaters is that the damage spike bump they get (min 3) is not worth all the flexibility you lose.

McCabe has a decent damage output (probably more than he should), df6, gives upgrades, has ride with me

VS has a decent gun, gives upgrades and is tanky as hell.

The melee beaters that work are: Misaki (lower damage but teleport and 6/7 stats)

Ironsides (built in triggers, tons of aoe buffs in keyword and a lure)

 

Viks, Nekima and Lady J are all basically 2SS behind because they need the faction df up to not die very fast.

All 3 of those also have a keyword that doesn't offer them much support

Dont forget the invincible shenlong in GG0 xD 

But now shenlong Is better máster, he have the irreducible damage with 8 stat and to much other tricks to move, Scheme, counter Scheme and heal

I think nekima Is the worse Melee máster 😕

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13 hours ago, darksoul281 said:

Hi, I speak about this problem a lot of times in my community (and we talk about this with Felix the winner of UK national of the past year, because he is my close friend) and we think the dame about this... Okay I start to explain

The Melee beaters models in this case masters because this Is the "most powerfull Melee beaters" Are a hungry machine of eat soulstone and cards, I speak about nekima because Is one of the masters that I play More times and have very serious problems.

Nekima Is a Melee model with 5 defense and no defensive triggers with 12 wounds this Is a big problem because the most damaging action in the game attack to defense

The second problem of nekima Is she is slow, she fly yes and have a stat 6 in this movement but she havent fly with me or other action to move, if you compare with other Melee masters like lady justice with leap or viktoria with the battle tempo or other actions and habilities to move

The mechanic of black blood Is nice in the theory but a squeezy model with a auto damage mechanic Is not a great idea

And the last think about this Is the posivility to make extra attacks or More damage triggers, for example, lady justice have Positive in damage, critical and one trigger to hit other model, vikis have a trigger to make other model hit the target etc

This Is not only the problem of nekima, but I think that nekima Is one of the worse Melee master of the game for all I say, I try to play a lot of times in a competitive spot but always have problems to win games (I win games with nekima but Is not easy xD) 

I think that the community undestand the problems of Melee masters before that says bad words or speak about this. 

Ty wyrdos

u need to practise more, she is a very strong master

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2 minutes ago, Plaag said:

u need to practise more, she is a very strong master

Sorry but I dont think this, im very competitive player and I have a lot of tops in Madrid and y remember in My community we have Felix, the winner of malifaux UK national, I never see Felix lose a game in m3e, this Is the level of my community xD

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1 hour ago, darksoul281 said:

Sorry but I dont think this, im very competitive player and I have a lot of tops in Madrid and y remember in My community we have Felix, the winner of malifaux UK national, I never see Felix lose a game in m3e, this Is the level of my community xD

i dont think that all that people are strong, we can just play in vassal

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Hey, it's ya boi, Kharnage, back at it again with the God Empress Nekima. Good news to those of you who were dismayed when I faltered in my faith of Nekima; I have been restored to belief that she is actually still strong. 
Make no mistakes; Von Schtook is without a doubt the dumbest master in the game. If you want to farm easy wins and destroy morale, Von Schtook is the way to go. He has such a comically overtuned kit that I'm literally playing him to get him nerfed because apparently when I do well with a master they nerf them (RIP GG0 Nekima)
But that being said, Nekima is still crazy scary to deal with if you know what you're doing with her. I would love to get a game in against your heralded champion Felix with my girl Nekima, I think it would be a gratifying game to play. Playing Nekima to her fullest requires a consummate understanding of when and where to go in, and how to leverage positioning to your advantage. While losing Butterfly Jump hurt, Scamper was a solid replacement, and now can work in the middle of her activation to cause more blade rush even into reach 2 foes. Additionally, the crew I used to run got retooled a bit since the Inhuman Reflexes nerf; Hayreddin doesn't use it well anymore. Instead, Ancient Pact on Hayreddin is my go to since Necrotic Decay + Black Joker = feels bad, and guaranteeing a quadruple pustule round is quite fulfilling. Dropping a mature for Serena w/ Ancient Pact, and giving my remaining Mature Inhuman Reflexes. While he technically "reduces the effectiveness" of Scamper because of Combat Finesse, there's still plenty of cheating that happens in a melee that he can take advantage of, and we gained some plink damage and mobility to boot. While this lost me some card draw in comparison with my infamous double Mature build, I gained a reliable targeted healer with some armor pen and condition removal, which were things I sorely longed for in my previous build. It also leaves me with 9 stones, which helps to serve the God Empress.
If you're having problems with playing Nekima to victory and have as many games under your belt as you say, then... maybe her play style is not your thing? At the end of the day, she's hard to play because knowing what she can and cannot deal with is important. If that's not something you want to deal with, then a squishball beater isn't going to be for you. 

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16 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Hey, it's ya boi, Kharnage, back at it again with the God Empress Nekima. Good news to those of you who were dismayed when I faltered in my faith of Nekima; I have been restored to belief that she is actually still strong. 
Make no mistakes; Von Schtook is without a doubt the dumbest master in the game. If you want to farm easy wins and destroy morale, Von Schtook is the way to go. He has such a comically overtuned kit that I'm literally playing him to get him nerfed because apparently when I do well with a master they nerf them (RIP GG0 Nekima)
But that being said, Nekima is still crazy scary to deal with if you know what you're doing with her. I would love to get a game in against your heralded champion Felix with my girl Nekima, I think it would be a gratifying game to play. Playing Nekima to her fullest requires a consummate understanding of when and where to go in, and how to leverage positioning to your advantage. While losing Butterfly Jump hurt, Scamper was a solid replacement, and now can work in the middle of her activation to cause more blade rush even into reach 2 foes. Additionally, the crew I used to run got retooled a bit since the Inhuman Reflexes nerf; Hayreddin doesn't use it well anymore. Instead, Ancient Pact on Hayreddin is my go to since Necrotic Decay + Black Joker = feels bad, and guaranteeing a quadruple pustule round is quite fulfilling. Dropping a mature for Serena w/ Ancient Pact, and giving my remaining Mature Inhuman Reflexes. While he technically "reduces the effectiveness" of Scamper because of Combat Finesse, there's still plenty of cheating that happens in a melee that he can take advantage of, and we gained some plink damage and mobility to boot. While this lost me some card draw in comparison with my infamous double Mature build, I gained a reliable targeted healer with some armor pen and condition removal, which were things I sorely longed for in my previous build. It also leaves me with 9 stones, which helps to serve the God Empress.
If you're having problems with playing Nekima to victory and have as many games under your belt as you say, then... maybe her play style is not your thing? At the end of the day, she's hard to play because knowing what she can and cannot deal with is important. If that's not something you want to deal with, then a squishball beater isn't going to be for you. 

I approve of this crusade. After restoring Nekima to her rightful throne and bringing Von Schtook back among the mortals, I would support further endeavors aimed at bringing Dashel down too (Or just anyone in general with obscene card draw) :}

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I don't agree with Dashel. All his card draw basically doesn't exist after T1. He's still a strong master, but I think it's not a problem. After the changes I don't know if Shenlong needs nerfs too. I`m more worried about By Your Side in high-card draw crews and unkillable masters like Leveticus, Ironsides and Colette.

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3 hours ago, trikk said:

The issue with melee beaters is that the damage spike bump they get (min 3) is not worth all the flexibility you lose.

McCabe has a decent damage output (probably more than he should), df6, gives upgrades, has ride with me

VS has a decent gun, gives upgrades and is tanky as hell.

The melee beaters that work are: Misaki (lower damage but teleport and 6/7 stats)

Ironsides (built in triggers, tons of aoe buffs in keyword and a lure)

 

Viks, Nekima and Lady J are all basically 2SS behind because they need the faction df up to not die very fast.

All 3 of those also have a keyword that doesn't offer them much support

I don't consider Misaki or Ironsides to be comparable to Nekima, Justice or Vicks. Justice and Vicks are 2 "on your face" type of masters like her; that's maybe a good starting point to compare.

Misaki has good damage potential, but she has to expend more resources to buy triggers to reach it (kind of like Titania); but in exange she is super safe, has better Df stats and tech, and has a lot of playmaking potential with her shadows. Compared with Nekima she has better supports in the faction, it's easier to stack Focused on her and charge through is like a free Focused per turn; but even with all that she has a very hard time matching Nekima in damage and mobility the first turn (I'm not saying Nekima wins with the trade tho). Ironsides with a Lure and all her defensive tech on top of decent damage is another flavour of opressive, but she won't dart around the board in turn 1 to hunt down your best model.

Min 3 is good, but what make those "berserker" type of masters stand out if their ability to go way beyond that on top of their speed. Nekima has a moderate damage of 5 and with IR she may push it to 5+1 ping damage; in the best set up it's possible to give her from Focused+2 to +4 (trigger reliant tho) on top of a good push and even Mv7 if you like Puppets. With the above plus stat 7 in her attack, you may pick and kill a lot of things between turns 1 and 2; that's her strenght. However with no other Df tech herself, the poor defensive tech and bodyguards of NVB and no other good tricks for schemings, she is a one trick pony. If her trick is countered, she is left in a bad spot.

16 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Hey, it's ya boi, Kharnage, back at it again with the God Empress Nekima. Good news to those of you who were dismayed when I faltered in my faith of Nekima; I have been restored to belief that she is actually still strong.

I'm not sure If being glad or concerned... the last time you played her, you managed to bring a new meaning to the word "another" :D

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1 minute ago, trikk said:

I don't agree with Dashel. All his card draw basically doesn't exist after T1. He's still a strong master, but I think it's not a problem. After the changes I don't know if Shenlong needs nerfs too. I`m more worried about By Your Side in high-card draw crews and unkillable masters like Leveticus, Ironsides and Colette.

Shenlong Is provably the most versatille master of the game, his attacks ignore all the defenses of the game (shoot ignore the Demise and the Melee Is irreducible) he can counter schemes with the push, because he move all the markets, strong healing, pushes, Is very resillent etc

He have a lot of draw with sensei you and yasunori, summon with the ototo and Minako combo etc

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3 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I don't consider Misaki or Ironsides to be comparable to Nekima, Justice or Vicks. Justice and Vicks are 2 "on your face" type of masters like her; that's maybe a good starting point to compare.

Misaki has good damage potential, but she has to expend more resources to buy triggers to reach it (kind of like Titania); but in exange she is super safe, has better Df stats and tech, and has a lot of playmaking potential with her shadows. Compared with Nekima she has better supports in the faction, it's easier to stack Focused on her and charge through is like a free Focused per turn; but even with all that she has a very hard time matching Nekima in damage and mobility the first turn (I'm not saying Nekima wins with the trade tho). Ironsides with a Lure and all her defensive tech on top of decent damage is another flavour of opressive, but she won't dart around the board in turn 1 to hunt down your best model.

Min 3 is good, but what make those "berserker" type of masters stand out if their ability to go way beyond that on top of their speed. Nekima has a moderate damage of 5 and with IR she may push it to 5+1 ping damage; in the best set up it's possible to give her from Focused+2 to +4 (trigger reliant tho) on top of a good push and even Mv7 if you like Puppets. With the above plus stat 7 in her attack, you may pick and kill a lot of things between turns 1 and 2; that's her strenght. However with no other Df tech herself, the poor defensive tech and bodyguards of NVB and no other good tricks for schemings, she is a one trick pony. If her trick is countered, she is left in a bad spot.

I'm not sure If being glad or concerned... the last time you played her, you managed to bring a new meaning to the word "another" :D

I undestand you, but one of the biggest problem of nekima (and Melee beaters that no have defensive techs) is the card draw, with nekima you Need all the cards to hit hard but you Need all Your cards to survive xD nekima easy eat 8/9 stones in prevent and draw cards in the start phase and not compensate the 23/24 ss (the "cost" and the ss you use) compared with other masters that make a very nice rol without using ss and a lot of cards

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10 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I don't consider Misaki or Ironsides to be comparable to Nekima, Justice or Vicks. Justice and Vicks are 2 "on your face" type of masters like her; that's maybe a good starting point to compare.

Thats kind of my point. That extra damage you do is usually not worth all the flexibility that you lose by picking Nekima/ Lady J

 

9 minutes ago, darksoul281 said:

Shenlong Is provably the most versatille master of the game, his attacks ignore all the defenses of the game (shoot ignore the Demise and the Melee Is irreducible) he can counter schemes with the push, because he move all the markets, strong healing, pushes, Is very resillent etc

He have a lot of draw with sensei you and yasunori, summon with the ototo and Minako combo etc

I'm not saying he's bad. But I don't feel he's that obnoxious. I did not however play vs him for awhile. Right now Schtook, Ironsides, Sandeep, Colette and Levi seem way stronger to me.

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1 hour ago, darksoul281 said:

Pls compare von schtook with the top masters of the game xD

Sandeep, shenlong or dashell are the best masters of the game, they have all You Need in the game, damage, draw, speed crew etc xD

sandeep and dashell are not so strong; the best master in the game is colette 

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Shenlong is no longer the best master of the game with a obvious different but he is now one of the best masters of the game because 10t have the perfect mix of OOK and versatile models with one of the versatille and strong master 

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