English Ivan (Umbra/DUA Keywords) Discussion

[Maogrim]

17 minutes ago, Adran said:

Yes, and no. I've not looked so closely at M3 box compositions, but even in M2E whilst the normal box was master, totem, Henchman and 3 minions, that was only about 54% of the boxes. I think M3 has a higher % that fit "normal", there are still plenty that fail. This is the same make up as Pandora's box. My personal guess is that it is in part based on how complicated the sculpts are, and how much space on a sprue. 

Sure, but for Pandora I'd have guessed it was because of Candy and Baby Kade being so tiny.

Ivan now comes with seven size 2 models worth 57 Stones: English Ivan (15), Mr Mordrake (6), Eva Havenhand (7), Gibson Dewalt (8), 3 Daeva (21).

Let's compare to Youko Hamasaki.

Youko brings five size 2 models and one size one model worth just 38 Stones: Youko Hamasaki (15), Chiyo Hamasaki (2), Bill Algren (9), 3 Geishas (12). 

I think that's quite the difference, in terms of actual physical material as well as Stone value. But I guess you could make similar comparisons across other factions. Still, seven size 2 models all well over 5 Stones seems quite a lot of bang for your buck.

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Maogrim said:

Sure, but for Pandora I'd have guessed it was because of Candy and Baby Kade being so tiny.

Ivan now comes with seven size 2 models worth 57 Stones: English Ivan (15), Mr Mordrake (6), Eva Havenhand (7), Gibson Dewalt (8), 3 Daeva (21).

Let's compare to Youko Hamasaki.

Youko brings five size 2 models and one size one model worth just 38 Stones: Youko Hamasaki (15), Chiyo Hamasaki (2), Bill Algren (9), 3 Geishas (12). 

I think that's quite the difference, in terms of actual physical material as well as Stone value. But I guess you could make similar comparisons across other factions. Still, seven size 2 models all well over 5 Stones seems quite a lot of bang for your buck.

I don't think soulstone cost of the box is something Wyrd considers when they plan them. (I don't know for certain, but the vast range of box sizes does suggest it isn't a consideration). 

And the bulk of the sprue material is actually the sprue, and from what I understand of the costs of injection molding, the actual material is very cheap, its the production of the mold, followed by the machine time where the bulk of the costs are.

So what is probably more important is the number of components, and thus the area of the sprue required, and I am assuming that the Deava are relatively low number of components.

But hey as a consumer, more models is good for me. 

 

[HomelessOne]

Wasn't 2e Kirai's box "illegal" under standard rules since it was too few Stones to actually run a Master-led crew? Just for comparison.

Twisting Fates described Gibson as "very short", so he might be a smaller model as well.

[Peturd]

2 hours ago, HomelessOne said:

Wasn't 2e Kirai's box "illegal" under standard rules since it was too few Stones to actually run a Master-led crew? Just for comparison.

Twisting Fates described Gibson as "very short", so he might be a smaller model as well.

Looking at the renders he looks short, but not like, Mouse level short. Though those don't always get the size across accurately.

[Whut]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Still, demonstrates that Ivan's summons are definitely a thing that your opponent has to give you permission to do (which they probably will, since it is a lot of work to deny). But summoning Brockens requires the right cards in hand to win the duel against the critical target.

Ivan will have to play very smart to summon Daevas and Spectres consistently. Of course a 12 or 13 in hand is a (nearly) guaranteed summon, but I expect Moderate Crows to be a significant source of summoning as well - not announcing your intentions with a stone, winning the duel on the flip, and then cheating down after your opponent chooses not to cheat. The crew is hungry for a few Crows in the hand - between Ivan's summoning, Mordrake's Claimed By Shadow, and Gibson's Burn Out.

Ivan will have to utilize his friends to help him get those better summons out. Rook can reveal your opponent's hand so you know what his highest card is and force some discards with Pressure/Execute. Operatives can draw you 2 cards attacking an enemy twice from up to 11" away. Gibson is the most valuable. He can draw you 2 cards with a double Surge while healing, of course grabs you a severe with Tools when he activates, loads Ivan up with Distracted, can give him Focused+Fast for another shot using Burn Out, and most importantly can force a negative WP flip if standing within 6" of a distracted enemy for a near-guaranteed summon against a non-SS-user. I expect Austera & Twigge to be a common take for Ivan in scheme marker pools. Her Discard-two-draw-two will beef up your hand considerably and she can discard some weaks in your deck with her aura as Umbra models heal sometimes, all while being decently tanky, fast, dropping schemes everywhere (which Ivan can turn into more Shadows if nothing else), and sniping enemies for 5 damage with a focused attack.

At the end of the day though, if you get unlucky, Nocturnes are pretty decent summons. Lots of models in the game have Wp4 which are easy to summon against, and summoning in a Nocturne near a Shadow Marker comes with two Stat5 1/3/4 attacks with plus to duel and damage. More so, Ivan can sometimes kill his target after summoning and the Nocturne is left free to walk 12" away to scheme, or can charge a different target (and drop a Shadow Marker in the process, providing his own positives), or can Displace some enemies near Shadow Markers, giving them Distracted.

--------

One thing I noticed - I think DUA/Umbra is going to hurt against large quantities of Armor+1 models. With the exception of Ivan's main attack, the entire crew is packed with 2/3/4 damage tracks and 2 damage AoE effects, which struggle against Arm+1 models as those usually aren't slouching in Health (like most Arm+2) or Stats (like most H2W). The crew has almost no 3 weak, 4 moderate, or 5-6 severe damage which is the most common counters to Arm+1, and even Broken Spectres' damage track of 2/3/4 is only effectively 3/4/5 against an Arm+1 model (really shining against Arm+2 and SS users).

Ivan will have to get great mileage on his own attacks, Spectres' place effects, Mordrake's Bury, and Rook's Execute to incapacitate or kill those sorts of threats, or use Ivan's and Eva's superior mobility and anti-scheming power to scheme and counter-scheme while Umbra models hold up the enemy.

God forbid Ivan ever face off against Transmortis though. Like, that's on the hard-counter level of "I wouldn't even want to try it." Summon next to me? Anna says no! Attack my hand? I draw tons of cards! You want to do damage? Arm+1 and H2W! Lots of good triggers? Stunned! Mordrake? Manos says hello! Distracted or Concealment? I give my entire crew Focused!" Yuck.

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, Whut said:

 

God forbid Ivan ever face off against Transmortis though. Like, that's on the hard-counter level of "I wouldn't even want to try it." Summon next to me? Anna says no! Attack my hand? I draw tons of cards! You want to do damage? Arm+1 and H2W! Lots of good triggers? Stunned! Mordrake? Manos says hello! Distracted or Concealment? I give my entire crew Focused!" Yuck.

Anna, Manos, and Vincent (one shots summons) are all common tech picks in Ressers. So that might just be a bad matchup and the solution might be to not bring summoner Ivan against Ressers (or at least, bring a flexible list if you bring him at all).

Would be funny to take an Ivan list where they take Vincent and Anna, and then you put zero emphasis on summoning 😜

[Adran]

Explorers are all going to struggle against armour and hard to wound, they have so few weak 3 attacks. ( just 6, and 2 are masters. Only 4 keywords have it). 

[Whut]

38 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Anna, Manos, and Vincent (one shots summons) are all common tech picks in Ressers. So that might just be a bad matchup and the solution might be to not bring summoner Ivan against Ressers (or at least, bring a flexible list I'd you bring him at all).

Would be funny to take an Ivan list where they take Vincent and Anna, and then you put zero emphasis on summoning 😜

Speaking of which - can we get a list of all the really dangerous anti-summoning and anti-demise tech to look out for?

Anti-Summoning:
Lone Marshal, Vincent, Anna, Charm Warder, Exorcist, ?

Anti-Demise:
Manos, DatsueBa, Shenlong, Lord Cooper, Archivist, ?
Mostly Avoidable: Charm Warder, Execute, ?

--

So far it seems like declaring Ivan into Ressers is suicide, into 10T or Explorers is dangerous, into Guild is a toss-up, and into others is probably a safe bet.

[HomelessOne]

"Dark Reflections"

SKU: WYR23811

Seems fair to presume Brocken Spectres + Nocturnes, scheduled for March.

[HomelessOne]

So, what have you been doing with Mr Mordrake’s Claimed By Shadow trigger?

[Whut]

1 hour ago, HomelessOne said:

So, what have you been doing with Mr Mordrake’s Claimed By Shadow trigger?

Haven't played an Explorer's game yet, but yea, this trigger is absolutely filthy. Effective Stat 7 vs Mv on staggered models (Stat 5 otherwise, which against Mv is perfectly fine), permanent bury if the enemy can't remove the marker. If the model is buried at the end of the game, it's dead. Even if they can remove the marker, that's 1 AP to remove - effectively Slow (or worse if they had to use AP moving towards the marker). Works on everything, even Masters. Can be done to multiple models during the game. Mordrake can even make his own markers with Tomes or low Crows. And Mordrake himself is unkillable without Demise-ignoring effects (or killing/pressuring Ivan) so you can't even get rid of him.

There is one saving grace - all the models in Keyword are 30mm except the Broken Spectre (who is slow and hard to summon) so at least Ivan can't easily step on the marker to hide it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

One thing to note is that Thoon (the Savage model with a similar ability) can stone for the suit AND chuck the pillar across the table, and the ability still isn't super strong.

It is good and can win games if people aren't prepared for it (which perhaps they won't be because they'll assume you don't have the  suit), but I wouldn't consider it a plan A by any means.

[Whut]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing to note is that Thoon (the Savage model with a similar ability) can stone for the suit AND chuck the pillar across the table, and the ability still isn't super strong.

It is good and can win games if people aren't prepared for it (which perhaps they won't be because they'll assume you don't have the  suit), but I wouldn't consider it a plan A by any means.

I agree. It's not plan A. But also Mordrake has an imperceptible and larger threat range, especially if he dies and respawns before activating. And the threat this poses is itself an advantage, just scaring your opponent into not spreading out, or being too afraid to push his Mv 4 beatstick into Ivan because Mordrake is right there next to him ready to bury you.

Also, Ivan can Encroaching Shadows to push the Shadow Marker 6". The day might come where I'll bury the enemy master, activate Ivan, and push the marker 18" away behind my entire crew. I'm gonna feel really bad.

[Peturd]

Above someone mentioned giving Ivan fast. I didn’t think Leaders could get a benefit from fast.

Also, in regards to 2/3/4 tracks, keep shadow pin in mind. Can give you some min 3 attacks fairly often. And worth one less + most of the time for Ivan. Honestly, against anti summoner tech picks, I would be happy to use him as turret against a lot matchups! I have been surprised with damage output with so many free crow double positives.

[Maniacal_cackle]

19 minutes ago, Peturd said:

Above someone mentioned giving Ivan fast. I didn’t think Leaders could get a benefit from fast.

 

Ivan can't benefit from fast, but he can give it to the totem. So Gibson doing Abberation + burn out spreads a focused + fast across the two models.

[Da Git]

I had a game where Mordrake Claimed by Shadows my poor Titania and then Eva Locked it away... bye bye master activation that turn... Sad days for Neverborn with basically no ranged marker removal...

It was basically living the dream for him, top decked both a high Tomes, then high Crows 😱

[ShinChan]

On 12/8/2020 at 3:22 PM, Adran said:

Explorers are all going to struggle against armour and hard to wound, they have so few weak 3 attacks. ( just 6, and 2 are masters. Only 4 keywords have it). 

The henchwoman from EVS can make up to 6 irreducible. 

Cadmus has tons of ping damage. 

Broken Spectres do irreducible. 

They're better than other at dealing with armor. 

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing to note is that Thoon (the Savage model with a similar ability) can stone for the suit AND chuck the pillar across the table, and the ability still isn't super strong.

It is good and can win games if people aren't prepared for it (which perhaps they won't be because they'll assume you don't have the  suit), but I wouldn't consider it a plan A by any means.

Thoon can't move it away until his next activation, so that's not really a thing that should be getting mentioned. As for the differences, Mordrake isn't limited to once per turn, so it's entirely possible for Mordrake to bury up to 3 models and then you have Daevas who can all mimic it and do it up to 4 times on their own activation, as well once each other activation they get placed.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Thoon can't move it away until his next activation, so that's not really a thing that should be getting mentioned. As for the differences, Mordrake isn't limited to once per turn, so it's entirely possible for Mordrake to bury up to 3 models and then you have Daevas who can all mimic it and do it up to 4 times on their own activation, as well once each other activation they get placed.

Oh wow, wicked! How good is the crew at generating the suit? Or are there OOK combos to generate it?

[Whut]

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh wow, wicked! How good is the crew at generating the suit? Or are there OOK combos to generate it?

No help, only cards

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Whut said:

No help, only cards

So many turns you're going to not benefit from it, and occasionally you're going to see an 11, 12, 13, and 14 of crows in your hand and think wicked thoughts.

[Adran]

3 hours ago, ShinChan said:

The henchwoman from EVS can make up to 6 irreducible. 

Cadmus has tons of ping damage. 

Broken Spectres do irreducible. 

They're better than other at dealing with armor. 

I didn't say they can't handle armour, I said they would struggle against armour and hard to wound. 

They have some answers to armour ( as you listed, it's not that many, but you can always just hit more), but on the whole they have beaters with top heavy damage tracks, 2/4/6 is fairly common. That's going to struggle against hard to wound, as you probably can't cheat that top damage in even if you focus. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

13 minutes ago, Adran said:

I didn't say they can't handle armour, I said they would struggle against armour and hard to wound. 

They have some answers to armour ( as you listed, it's not that many, but you can always just hit more), but on the whole they have beaters with top heavy damage tracks, 2/4/6 is fairly common. That's going to struggle against hard to wound, as you probably can't cheat that top damage in even if you focus. 

Yeah, as a Ressers player, I'm not that nervous about facing Explorer's Society (at least, compared to Arcanists and Ten Thunders). But I'm sure there's some secret tech scattered throughout the faction that is quite good against us.

[Kevinsmith101]

I like moredrakes attack to bury but it relies on the target still being in base contact with a shadow marker, that requires setup no matter how easy. Thoon requires nothing but a stone and a high card 

 

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Kevinsmith101 said:

I like moredrakes attack to bury but it relies on the target still being in base contact with a shadow marker, that requires setup no matter how easy. Thoon requires nothing but a stone and a high card 

 

While true, it's not like the set-up is hard. Certainly not hard enough to justify the abusability.