Do optimised Dreamer lists need to run lure/obey?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I'm picking up The Dreamer and suspect he is going to be one of my mains for tournaments.

If going for really competitive environments, would you say an optimised Dreamer list needs access to lure or obey? There's 7 lure options and 1 obey option (Zoraida) in faction, so there's quite a few things to pick from. Which do you think are best? Baby Kade appeals on the grounds of being a good partner for Teddy anyway.

A 12" range on an ability that pulls a model closer to your crew and then pulls a summoned model out of bury into base contact seems like a pretty devastating combo.

Just wanting to get some thoughts on things like this as I'm learning the crew! Until I'm in a competitive environment, of course, I won't bother picking up the lure models. Thanks in advance!

[Trample]

Not at all. A Dreamer list can be competitive with only the Lucid Dreams foundation. It will, almost regardless of makeup, bring enough damage output, movement, terrifying, summoning, and other good qualities to be effective. The Dreamer can field a very solid crew without worrying about obey or lure.  

[Wyamphri]

Honestly, I wouldn't go much outside of the nightmare keyword. The crew is just so solid without OOK models. A usual list is 

Dreamer, Chompy, 3x daydreams, 2 stitched together, Widow weaver and maybe like an alp and coppelius 

[Angelshard]

You can  do fine with just the nightmare keyword. 

I especially wouldn't buy them if you only plan to get them shortly before you go to a competition. You'll get a lot further knowing your crew well than using new models. 

If you are looking for a lure model I would go with hinamatsu and use her as my second beater. 

[Wyamphri]

Idk, I feel the crew is pretty easy to run. Lucid dream spam, play carefully turns 1 and 2. Turn 3+ wreck face with your better deck lol

[Hawkoon]

I also think Wrath could have a place with the Dreamer if you want a "lure".

[Grim]

yup, thin your deck, wreck face. repeat.

[Dubh]

This might be an option to consider depending on what master you are going up against. Since m3e has us announcing masters before we buy crews, you can keep this as a backpocket idea for some of those models you feel might need to be obeyed or lured. Most of the time the keyword models should be enough but ook models do allow flexibility against particularly difficult crews.

[Ceodoc]

I would say 'optimized Dreamer lists' need to run WP duels, as Lure tends to be a good range for WP duels, the answer is yes a Dreamer list needs access to Lures.

[santaclaws01]

58 minutes ago, Ceodoc said:

I would say 'optimized Dreamer lists' need to run WP duels, as Lure tends to be a good range for WP duels, the answer is yes a Dreamer list needs access to Lures.

The only turn that range matters is turn 1, and getting summons out turn 1 that far away is far from optimized.

[Mycellanious]

41 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

The only turn that range matters is turn 1, and getting summons out turn 1 that far away is far from optimized.

What would be the timing for that? Would the model move first, would the summons be placed, then the model walk away, or is it the active player's choice?

[Wyamphri]

It's after resolving the action

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

What would be the timing for that? Would the model move first, would the summons be placed, then the model walk away, or is it the active player's choice?

After the model moves.

[Ceodoc]

On 8/24/2019 at 4:45 AM, santaclaws01 said:

The only turn that range matters is turn 1, and getting summons out turn 1 that far away is far from optimized.

Range always matters.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Ceodoc said:

Range always matters.

Sorry wasn't clear enough, I meant to say that the 18" range doesn't matter.

[LeperColony]

How's the rider with Dreamer?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think Lure is a 12" range, not 18".

I was more thinking that because it is such a powerful effect for WP, it might be worthwhile. However, I wrote the initial post before realising how strong terrorize is.

Of course, in reckoning, lure still seems like it'd be powerful.

Not sure about the rider, sorry!

[santaclaws01]

16 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think Lure is a 12" range, not 18".

I was more thinking that because it is such a powerful effect for WP, it might be worthwhile. However, I wrote the initial post before realising how strong terrorize is.

Of course, in reckoning, lure still seems like it'd be powerful.

Not sure about the rider, sorry!

Oh right. had 2e rules in my head. Honeslty that just makes the extra range from lure even less appealing.

[Ceodoc]

We agree that a failed WP duel opening up the opportunity to unbury a summoned model in b2b is a huge part of Dreamers power?

So what ranged WP attacks are you thinking of that are longer than 12"?

Nb genuine question not a argument 👍

[Adran]

4 minutes ago, Ceodoc said:

We agree that a failed WP duel opening up the opportunity to unbury a summoned model in b2b is a huge part of Dreamers power?

So what ranged WP attacks are you thinking of that are longer than 12"?

Nb genuine question not a argument 👍

I'm not the person the question was aimed at, but I'll offer a possible answer. You might well not want to put your models out so far away from your forces as it leaves them unsupported. In which case the 12" range is a trap, rather than a feature.

If you play a more stand off list and don't want to engage, then the 12" range might be more useful (only then the lure effect isn't something that you want all the time).

There is certainly a style of Dreamer play that really wants to focus on WP duels, and for those lists, Lure is probably a good choice.

I think there are other ways to build Dreamer lists, where you don't need so may WP duels, and hiring out of keyword for lure will be diluting what you want. For example if you're trying to maximise the effect of Lucid dreams, you probably don't want to spend 1/5th of your points on a support model that isn't supporting your main focus.

 

This will also change depending on what you're facing. Face a gun line and Lure is great. Face a crew of Melee monsters, and it is much less useful.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I imagine the point is that range doesn't matter as much as result. It's better to have a strong 8" than a weak 12".

That said, I think lure is potentially quite powerful an effect if you can fit it in. Adran's point about being an enemy-specific choice is relevant (although even then, I like luring people off of important models more than I like terrifying them sometimes, depending on the angle). Lure can be a potent tool for keeping people from running too far into your line, I would imagine!

[Ceodoc]

Thank you for replies.

Bit lost now though if Dreamer's playstyle is not 'summoning'???

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Ceodoc said:

Thank you for replies.

Bit lost now though if Dreamer's playstyle is not 'summoning'???

To me - "summoning" is not a playstyle in itself. You can only do the action once per turn.  And other than making sure you have ways to unbury them (and even that isn't always what you want if you're hoping to use the cricket bat at maximum damage) the rest of the turn is not at all related to summoning or setting up for summoning.

If you are trying to summon lots of little models, then you need to cause more unburying, but if you are only summoning 1 model a turn then you probably already have a decent chance to make the opponent fail a WP duel else where.

And then, primarily focused on Summoning stitched for damage can lead to playing the game very differently to you being focused on Summoning Insidious madness for scheme running, or building a list that is relatively balanced, and summoning what is appropriate at the time to get the best results.

 

[Ogid]

32 minutes ago, Ceodoc said:

Thank you for replies.

Bit lost now though if Dreamer's playstyle is not 'summoning'???

You only need 1 or 2 failed WP duels/turns maximum to get the summons out and insidius madness can use disembodied voices buried (and buried models would increase dreamer's mele damage, however it'll be better if the little brat don't have many oportunities to swing his bat). The creed has some good WP abilities you will be using anyway and Terrifying can also trigger summoning; it's not something you need to specifically build for. Summoning (+lucid dream) is more a way to put pressure into the other creed. Each turn your crew will be more powerful (more models + hotter deck), so they need to hit you hard early or get a lot of points early.

Lure can be a really good tool, but there are ways to get around it; just putting a disposable model in front of good lure targets would reduce a lot the impact of these.

For getting enemies wildly out of position the crew can use the Bandersnatch + WW combo (or just WW, but that rely on your adversary making mistakes). With Bandersnatch, put a web within 7'' of an enemy (much better if that enemy has already been activated) and 12'' of WW. Activate WW, pace her in the web, charge and cheat/stone to trigger "Into the Dream Web", place the enemy in the web between WW and the nightnare crew. Terrorize to make it run into your team, preferabily into engaging/charge range of a beater like teddy or LCB (and that wp roll may even summon something to cut his retreat). This would leave WW pretty exposed tho, so it's better as a final turn move.

[Maniacal_cackle]

As an example of a summoning strategy:

One game I terrorised an enemy model into the middle of their crew and this unburied an insidious madness. It proceeded to eat so many attacks the rest of my crew got into position and won.

So summoning and getting it unburied is not the goal. Summoning and getting it unburied is a tool that can be useful. If it isn't the most useful thing you can be doing, you do something else.

It is not enough to just make them fail a random test and drop a summon in a place of no strategic value.

So summoning isn't a playstyle, summoning is split into a bunch of strategic tools you use as necessary.

My favourite tool in the toolbox is sacrificing minions on purpose, knowing it'll provide some strategic payoff. But to do that, the summon needs to be in the right place.