Did we get nerfed in m3e

[Wildcard626]

What's people's thoughts on the bayou faction after the m3e beta release the way I read it we've lost so many of our little tricks etc but gained very little. All the models now seem to be... How do I put this... boring am I missing all the fun stuff? 

[Davie]

3 minutes ago, Wildcard626 said:

What's people's thoughts on the bayou faction after the m3e beta release the way I read it we've lost so many of our little tricks etc but gained very little. All the models now seem to be... How do I put this... boring am I missing all the fun stuff? 

play it and see for yourself.

what exactly do you have in mind?

What were those Little tricks?

I can tell you, we have some very neat tricks in M3E Beta. Scamper for Example is crazy good. Growing Piglets into Warpigs is amazing etc.

[Adran]

I think there are still plenty of tricks. Remember not all the M2E tricks were obvious when people first started using them.

 

[Wildcard626]

Can't put my finger on it just don't like the new stats and abilities just doesn't feel like the gremlin faction and models I fell in love with. Francois is not the mean do or die guy he was with dumb luck etc every models changed in one way or another from swinecursed to trixibelle  to zipp their just not who they were in m2e 

[Davie]

9 minutes ago, Wildcard626 said:

Can't put my finger on it just don't like the new stats and abilities just doesn't feel like the gremlin faction and models I fell in love with. Francois is not the mean do or die guy he was with dumb luck etc every models changed in one way or another from swinecursed to trixibelle  to zipp their just not who they were in m2e 

if you Keep on comparing m3e to m2e you'll have a bad time.

M3E is a new Thing, yes. Some changes hurt, yes. Some are awesome. Try to keep a fresh and open attitude to M3E. It's worth it.

Yes, some models have lost some of their individuality, but what M3E really does really really well is giving far more models a place to shine.

[rober695]

I played primarily thunders in 2e with Ulix and Somer on the side. Ive not had that long to parse the files. But Ulix looks amazing. He will absolutely be my first game/master in 3e. Pigs losing pig charge, gaining stampede and reckless. Is nuts. Wild boars seem hireable. Hog whisperer gets piglets on a 6. They added a ranged pig. Super excited for this crew haha. 

[Davie]

2 minutes ago, rober695 said:

Wild boars seem hireable

Very much so. Even if you "only" grow it into a War Pig on your first turn.

[Jenova Painting]

1 hour ago, rober695 said:

I played primarily thunders in 2e with Ulix and Somer on the side. Ive not had that long to parse the files. But Ulix looks amazing. He will absolutely be my first game/master in 3e. Pigs losing pig charge, gaining stampede and reckless. Is nuts. Wild boars seem hireable. Hog whisperer gets piglets on a 6. They added a ranged pig. Super excited for this crew haha. 

I love new Ulix. He is super fun

[LunarSol]

I think you'll find across the board there's a little more of a ceiling on individual models.  There's also less focus on individual models that do outlandish things as is there is on crews that do outlandish things together.  Personally, while I find some character lost in the enforcer level stuff, the game more than makes up for it by really making the masters stand out as unique and full of flavor.

[wizuriel]

honestly the thing I miss the most going from 2E to 3E is Gremlin's lost a lot of their flavour and only kept the negatives.

in 2E Gremlins had a lot of controlled choas. Actions would have 4 triggers where you had 2 good options, 1 okay option and 1 bad option. Now we just seem to have bad triggers because Gremlins. Likewise you had abilities with really strong effects, but 25% of the time they would backfire and a lot of those are gone (or the backfire percentage is so costly they aren't worth the risk).

in 2E when something went wrong you had ways around it (either a lot of healing, suit manipulation ect). A lot of that is gone

while I do think 2E made the controlled part of controlled choas too easy, 3E has just removed controlled imo where we still have Gremlin flavour. 

 

I don't think Bayou is under powered (they have been very competitive in the games I played) but Bayou imo has no where near the flavour of Gremlins. 

[Wildcard626]

25 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

honestly the thing I miss the most going from 2E to 3E is Gremlin's lost a lot of their flavour and only kept the negatives.

in 2E Gremlins had a lot of controlled choas. Actions would have 4 triggers where you had 2 good options, 1 okay option and 1 bad option. Now we just seem to have bad triggers because Gremlins. Likewise you had abilities with really strong effects, but 25% of the time they would backfire and a lot of those are gone (or the backfire percentage is so costly they aren't worth the risk).

in 2E when something went wrong you had ways around it (either a lot of healing, suit manipulation ect). A lot of that is gone

while I do think 2E made the controlled part of controlled choas too easy, 3E has just removed controlled imo where we still have Gremlin flavour. 

 

I don't think Bayou is under powered (they have been very competitive in the games I played) but Bayou imo has no where near the flavour of Gremlins. 

Finally someone agrees lol when you look at the other factions they all have the same models doing the same damage spread with the same triggers. Yes we can grow piglets into bigger pigs but terror tots do exactly the same in their faction so where is the bayou uniqueness? Wheres all our little quirks gone the dumb luck the bayou 2 card without having to have model x within 3". We have lost our flavour and our uniqueness we are no different from all the other factions now and it's a real shame 

[Thedeadclaw]

5 minutes ago, Wildcard626 said:

Finally someone agrees lol when you look at the other factions they all have the same models doing the same damage spread with the same triggers. Yes we can grow piglets into bigger pigs but terror tots do exactly the same in their faction so where is the bayou uniqueness? Wheres all our little quirks gone the dumb luck the bayou 2 card without having to have model x within 3". We have lost our flavour and our uniqueness we are no different from all the other factions now and it's a real shame 

I'm still working my way through the rules, and admittedly the only bayou masters I play are the weird 3 (brewmaster(still not painted though), zoraida and Zipp), but I think Zoraida and Zipp got more flavorful in this edition? Zipp felt more like a caricature than an infamous if somewhat incompetent pirate last edition, and I really like the flavor of his new abilities and crew. Zoraida never felt like a viable Gremlin master to me and always was a choice for me for Neverborn control instead, but now while she still has that archetype she has a conniving luck based brawling archetype to play in Bayou. I haven't played Brewmaster yet so I'll refrain from commenting there, but I think some Bayou masters have better flavour in M3E. And my spouse, who exclusively plays Ophelia and Rocinante(alt Ulix) is through the moon about a lot of the changes, because upon first read they're pretty convinced that there's more tricks for edging out a win against WP duel masters, which are pretty prominent in our meta.

I totally feel you about the luck based triggers, it was one of the things that made Zipp my first kit instead of a kit from one of my main factions, but I think there's still good flavour there, it's just different now.

[Primate]

I played brewmaster and he feels very functional. There's a small chance of setting fire to all your own models but it's not chaotic. Cooper's definitely got fun flavour though, with all her abilities based around ramming barrels on things.

[rober695]

3 hours ago, Jenova Painting said:

I love new Ulix. He is super fun

Out of curiosity. How many war pigs should you own. They seem pretty hard to kill. ATM I only have one and am trying to gage if that is sufficient or if I should pick up at least one more. 

[wizuriel]

17 minutes ago, rober695 said:

Out of curiosity. How many war pigs should you own. They seem pretty hard to kill. ATM I only have one and am trying to gage if that is sufficient or if I should pick up at least one more. 

You still limited by the rare 3 limit so I wouldn't go with more than the original 2

[Jenova Painting]

24 minutes ago, rober695 said:

Out of curiosity. How many war pigs should you own. They seem pretty hard to kill. ATM I only have one and am trying to gage if that is sufficient or if I should pick up at least one more. 

I have 3 (at one point in the beta; they were very easy to summon  😁 ). I think 2 is a reasonable number if you don’t hire any. I have used 2 in the last couple of games.

[Omenbringer]

On 1/17/2019 at 6:38 AM, Davie said:

I can tell you, we have some very neat tricks in M3E Beta. Scamper for Example is crazy good. Growing Piglets into Warpigs is amazing etc.

While I think Ulix took the fewest hits in M3e growing piglets is no where near as good as Ulix's outright summons in M2e (which probably did need to be toned down).

On 1/17/2019 at 7:39 AM, Wildcard626 said:

Can't put my finger on it just don't like the new stats and abilities just doesn't feel like the gremlin faction and models I fell in love with. Francois is not the mean do or die guy he was with dumb luck etc every models changed in one way or another from swinecursed to trixibelle  to zipp their just not who they were in m2e 

Many of the changes seem inconsistent, while a lot have received adjustments down, some have changed in surprising ways for the better. I like some but dislike many others.

I think the primary reason Gremlins dont feel like themselves (aside from another faction name change) is the proliferation of Healing among all factions. While I don't have numbers, it definitely feels like every faction has decent healing abilities or actions now, that is very troubling and surprising giving the frequent complaints about Slop Haulers. A low cost, low wound model (like a Bayou Gremlin) with access to healing is not as dominating as a high cost, high wound model with it (looking at Lady Justice as a sterling example of this).

On 1/17/2019 at 7:51 AM, Davie said:

if you Keep on comparing m3e to m2e you'll have a bad time.

M3E is a new Thing, yes. Some changes hurt, yes. Some are awesome. Try to keep a fresh and open attitude to M3E. It's worth it.

Yes, some models have lost some of their individuality, but what M3E really does really really well is giving far more models a place to shine.

I have some serious heart burn with this sentiment. Comparisons between editions are inevitable and trying to dissuade them is disingenuous. A lot of the community were not expecting the wholesale changes that they are seeing. More than a few crews now play completely different than they used to. Somer is a great example. He has changed significantly with each new edition, negating many of his previous crew choices and play styles. He definitely doesn't feel or play anything like his original version, and that smarts quite a bit for someone that has played and sung his praises from very near the start of the game (when he was called the least competitive master/crew in the game).

I do agree that M3e has made many models more playable now. The real question is will it stick, or will everything be undone with the next released supplement? Rebalancing and making things more playable was a design intent of M2e and it didn't really last or even succeed.

On 1/17/2019 at 1:29 PM, wizuriel said:

You still limited by the rare 3 limit so I wouldn't go with more than the original 2

Not a big fan of the addition of Rare values to models that never had them. Bayou Gremlins are a perfect example, though they are now trending toward a more positive value. Too bad I have 14 along with 9 Piglets (not to mention my 4 Skeeters that were allowed in 1st edition).

Overall, M3e has produced a lot of mixed emotions for me. On one hand, I am ecstatic about  some of the changes, elevation rules that might actually function on a tabletop, a return to theme, and the new Shockwave mechanic. On the other, I am disappointed with some of the rebalancing attempts (and not just in the Gremlin/Bayou faction), though to be fair nothing is completely carved in stone just yet. This is the primary reason I am not as involved in play testing as I have been in the past and why I am playing a lot of other game systems than I ever have before. Figure both of these things will aid in approaching the new edition with fresh eyes and ease the stings that are inevitable.

What I am very thankful for...Wyrd is managing this edition change a lot more effectively than the last one. The Waldo's Weekly articles are great for explaining the designers intent with specific models. And, so far, it seems like the community is not as adversarial as it was during the last edition transition. Perhaps entire communities won't have to be rebuilt this time. I am optimistic but also perturbed. I think this is a normal reaction when things are changed in a major way. Somer is not the Master/ or crew that I fell in love with so many years ago (and I am not talking about when there were abuses like the Infinite red joker draws or skeeter summons which I worked very hard to have fixed) and that is a hard pill to swallow, but I will enjoy relearning him. As a whole, Malifaux is not the same game that I fell in love with either, but understand why many of the changes were implemented. I do wish each new Malifaux edition didn't have a feel of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", probably somewhat inevitable given the high turnover of lead developers/ designers though.

These are just my thoughts and opinions and no more valuable than anyone elses. As always, everyone should judge for themselves.

[Wildcard626]

It's a real shame that m3e is turning out like it is I just don't feel it and haven't got the buzz I had before. I've tried a couple of games and was unimpressed with the bayou faction as are a few of us in our little club and their respective factions. Like the owner of the store says maybe the only way to enjoy it now would be to switch to another faction so I'm not comparing gremlin m2e to bayou m3e. I'm sure some love the bayou in m3e but for me personally I don't. Guess it's time to concentrate on TOS instead that way I'm still supporting wyrd 😊

[Steve-El-Tragger]

You guys should write your concerns in the beta Forum. Whenever i do, i get a lot of disagrees so it is in a Strange way refteshing to see there are people out there with the same point of view.

I think they need to get rid off that pass tokens again. It's ridiculous how our arcanist player is thinking about not taking the mechanical doves because they are worse then giving the enemy pass tokens. The same problem i feel while playing somer. Bayou gremlins just suck at this point.

Our whole meta is already tending to play 7-8 model elite crews all of the time, regardless of faction because of this.

Everyone got healing, everyone got similar summoning masters, one master with Upgrade shenanigans, everyone has a similar crewsize now. I just feel like the factions all together lost a lot of their identities. At this point, i feel like our only bit of identity left is overall worse stats and triggers.

[Wildcard626]

17 minutes ago, Steve-El-Tragger said:

You guys schuld write your concerns in the beta Forum. Whenever i do, i get a lot of disagrees so it is in a Strange way refteshing to see there are people out there with the same point of view.

I think they need to get rid off that pass tokens again. It's ridiculous how our arcanist player is thinking about not taking the mechanical doves because they are worse then giving the enemy pass tokens. The same problem i feel while playing somer. Bayou gremlins just suck at this point.

Our whole meta is already tending to play 7-8 model elite crews all of the time, regardless of faction because of this.

Everyone got healing, everyone got similar summoning masters, one master with Upgrade shenanigans, everyone has a similar crewsize now. I just feel like the factions all together lost a lot of their identities. At this point, i feel like our only bit of identity left is overall worse stats and triggers.

It's a mess alright they have stuffed the gremlins big time. Bayou gremlins are crap (I own 16) piglets are only good for growing now they've lost the def6 stat loved throwing them to tie up key models . I loved the faction I'm ranked 4th in the UK for playing them in tournaments and now their just boring do the same stuff as models in every one else's faction. I tried the beta test tell them what I thought route to get shot down everytime so gave up. So wanted to like m3e but it's just not that good/fun to me agree 100% gremlins have lost what made them great to play everything is so generic now 

[Fixxer]

 

Im not sure how many games all of you have played of M3E or if you are just making direct comparisons to your experience in 2E. Regardless the negativity without data or suggestion does nothing to help change these models.

The bayou factions still has a lot of options for significant 3ss models and have access to 2ss models. I'd argue that their 4-6ss minions are some of the best in the game. I still feel like this crew benefits from spamming 3 minions of a similar type and looking to bring crews of 10-12 models despite pass tokens. Learning how to play around passing or not going first is fine when you have the numbers and create a board state where you dont care which model your opponent activates first. You'll have multiple lanes to score VP and they'll only have an options to stop one. Gremlins also have a lot of maneuverability, pushes to disengage, even if they're only 1" pips... they're effective. Heck Mahs scamper ability is insane....  Perhaps Bayou wont be blowing anyone out, but I dont know if any crew/faction is in M3E.

They're really hard to stop in terms of scheming and perhaps offer a crew that dies while it wins. Sure that might not "feel" great, but its a victory none the less. I think being a bit more imaginative at your approach will help as opposed to having expectations for overpowered and wonky rules we had in M2E.  I prefer to get away from the wide swing of 0 or 10VP this faction was scoring in 2E, and perhaps to you guys that means "boring, watered down, just like everyone else" but to me its cleaned up and puts the Bayou faction inline with all the others..

On 1/25/2019 at 5:10 AM, Omenbringer said:

A lot of the community were not expecting the wholesale changes that they are seeing. More than a few crews now play completely different than they used to. Somer is a great example. He has changed significantly with each new edition, negating many of his previous crew choices and play styles. He definitely doesn't feel or play anything like his original version, and that smarts quite a bit for someone that has played and sung his praises from very near the start of the game (when he was called the least competitive master/crew in the game).

I appreciate an opinion but I couldnt disagree with this more. I normally hate outwardly contradicting people online but these opinions are on the level of misinformation. 

 How are they THAT different? Mah hits stuff, pushes, gets bonuses to initiative, gives a crewwide ability based on suits. Ophelias crew shoots, has arsenal upgrades, and a crew of enforcers that all serve a purpose. Very similar to her other versions. Zipp... he's practically the same with some reservations on "up we go" which was warranted, other than that, his card is practically the same. Brewmaster lost Obey for a Lure with an Obey trigger but also gained a ridiculous melee attack and auras that really wreck crews with poison. He still operates similar in that nobody on the opposing crew wants to be anywhere near brewie. Wong has changed the most due to the introduction of shockwaves but I'd argue that it makes him a bit more interesting. I always found blast masters to be boring in 2E, I like his new playstyle and wold argue that he's the only one that saw wholesale changes.  Somers, plays very similar to his inception. He's a summoner with guns, lots of models, and card draw. I dont see much difference there other than he mightve changed more into a denial master than a 8vp master. Using those extra models for denial or to get in the way because you cannot interact if you've taken a disengage action, bayou gremlins are great at this. Ulix, growing pigs vs summoning them in droves is different but his support is similar. He can get his pigs swinging big and moving/charging out of activation. Ulix has changed a bit, but still has similar properties of support, summoning, glass cannon... 

I wouldnt call any of this stuff BAD from my experience. I understand having a negative opinion based on expectations not living up though. I'd just suggest that examples are presented with possible solutions or ideas. Ulix wouldnt be where he is now without 

 

[Adran]

4 hours ago, Wildcard626 said:

 I tried the beta test tell them what I thought route to get shot down everytime so gave up. So wanted to like m3e but it's just not that good/fun to me agree 100% gremlins have lost what made them great to play everything is so generic now 

I can fully understand this. There is the option to send reports and feedback directly rather than post on the forums and feel your points just get hidden in the noise. 

[Wildcard626]

12 minutes ago, Adran said:

I can fully understand this. There is the option to send reports and feedback directly rather than post on the forums and feel your points just get hidden in the noise. 

To be fare the beta killed malifaux off at our gaming shop and the release of the new updated beta hasn't swayed anyone to start again. Me and my sons have had a number of games and just aren't feeling it in m3e for some reason. Shame really as we own every crew in 3 different factions 

[Omenbringer]

1 hour ago, Fixxer said:

I appreciate an opinion but I couldnt disagree with this more. I normally hate outwardly contradicting people online but these opinions are on the level of misinformation. 

 How are they THAT different? Mah hits stuff, pushes, gets bonuses to initiative, gives a crewwide ability based on suits. Ophelias crew shoots, has arsenal upgrades, and a crew of enforcers that all serve a purpose. Very similar to her other versions. Zipp... he's practically the same with some reservations on "up we go" which was warranted, other than that, his card is practically the same. Brewmaster lost Obey for a Lure with an Obey trigger but also gained a ridiculous melee attack and auras that really wreck crews with poison. He still operates similar in that nobody on the opposing crew wants to be anywhere near brewie. Wong has changed the most due to the introduction of shockwaves but I'd argue that it makes him a bit more interesting. I always found blast masters to be boring in 2E, I like his new playstyle and wold argue that he's the only one that saw wholesale changes.  Somers, plays very similar to his inception. He's a summoner with guns, lots of models, and card draw. I dont see much difference there other than he mightve changed more into a denial master than a 8vp master. Using those extra models for denial or to get in the way because you cannot interact if you've taken a disengage action, bayou gremlins are great at this. Ulix, growing pigs vs summoning them in droves is different but his support is similar. He can get his pigs swinging big and moving/charging out of activation. Ulix has changed a bit, but still has similar properties of support, summoning, glass cannon... 

I wouldnt call any of this stuff BAD from my experience. I understand having a negative opinion based on expectations not living up though. I'd just suggest that examples are presented with possible solutions or ideas. Ulix wouldnt be where he is now without

Well Fixxer, we are likely going to have to agree to disagree but...

1st edition Som'er was an awesome crew with plenty of deep play options. Winning with him required understanding of how each piece could assist the others in overcoming there idiosyncrasies. Things like pig ladders, Bacon bombing assassination runs, and pig boomerangs (many of which I either authored or described for fellow Gremlin players, way back when Somer was widely considered completely non-competitive) were potent but balanced, requiring a combined force approach and significant set up. 2nd edition Somer shifted toward a larger support role with a summon option that could be abused for card draws (I have never really agreed with this but I was only 1 voice during M2e closed play testing). 3rd edition Somer is all over the place. It is difficult to see what he is really focused on. I despise his dissolve mechanic especially when coupled to the pass mechanic. It is this particular change that is most egregious for Gremlin players. In my opinion, out activation is only a problem in crews that weren't designed for it (something I argued during closed play testing) and the Pass mechanic is just a new option for abuse and power gaming.

I have posted my concerns in the Closed beta several times, being accused of having a faction bias when disagreeing with the status quo. After many, many Wyrd closed play test periods (since way back in 1st edition with Rising Powers) and many open play tests, I just don't have the energy anymore to fight the very high noise to signal ratio found in the play test format or the Bullying. I am glad that they are now apparently trying to combat this by offering another, non-forum method of reporting concerns to the developers.

Though this is the internet and tone can be very difficult to gauge, I feel as if you are being incredibly dismissive of players with other opinions that differ from yours. Since I have been around the block a couple of times with this, there really isn't a point to continuing with a discussion that is likely to end with forum warnings being thrown around. You like the changes, cool happy for you, others do not and that is fine as well. In the end each of us will have to make the decision whether we continue with the new edition or not. Currently, I am waiting until the final published version to make my decision and that is the best I can offer.

[Fixxer]

7 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Though this is the internet and tone can be very difficult to gauge, I feel as if you are being incredibly dismissive of players with other opinions that differ from yours. Since I have been around the block a couple of times with this, there really isn't a point to continuing with a discussion that is likely to end with forum warnings being thrown around. You like the changes, cool happy for you, others do not and that is fine as well. In the end each of us will have to make the decision whether we continue with the new edition or not. Currently, I am waiting until the final published version to make my decision and that is the best I can offer.

That’s fine. Tone is difficult to gauge over the internet and by no means meant any offense. I speak and write direct and concise. And prefaced my statement.... 

I reluctantly contradicted your position . Im  Very sorry you took any offense. I have no fear of any mod warnings being thrown around at all, im not attacking anyone, just voicing the opposite side of the coin... or a positive outlook in response to a dire one. And this upsets you? I want M3E to thrive, I want to stoke folks out about the game, not discourage them. 

I appreciate you breaking down what you were talking about in terms of Somers, at least there are some terms or ideas about what he was doing in 1ed... I’m not sure how relevant it is now in 3E considering the overall changes to the game and a whole edition later. Yearning for the olden days is always warranted, perhaps Somers has some more room to grow with data and suggestions from you.