Bad strats and schemes for a starting crew.

[WWHSD]

I'm just getting started and it seems like I'm probably going to be better off picking a fairly static crew and getting good with that first instead of trying to tailor my crew to the particular schemes, strats, and opponents that will be in each match. 

That said, I'd like to have an idea of what my chosen crew will be good at and if there's anything that they are so bad at that I need to have a fallback crew ready to handle.

 

Mei Feng (Vapormancy, Seismic Claws, and Arcane Reservoir)

Kang (Hard Worker, People's Champion)

Emberling

Sparks 

Mechanized Porkchop

3 x Rail Worker

Mei is left with a 5 stone cache. I'm tempted to move Hard Worker onto Sparks instead of Kang just to spread the upgrades around but Kang seems like he'll usually stay on the board longer.

The crew seems fairly straightforward to run without a bunch of fiddly stuff that needs to happen in the right order so that the crew can do its thing. 

The crew has 8 activations and every model is significant and able to interact. I'm not going to overwhelm anyone with an activation advantage but it seems like I won't be at much of a disadvantage against anything but spammy summoning crews.

Kang and the Rail Workers seem like they'll be good at holding a position and in some situations they can be pretty killy but they are kind of on the slow side. Outside of Mei, there isn't a lot of movement schenigans that the squad is capable of. Sparks is able to put Fast on everyone but Mei and Kang (unless Sparks makes Kang a construct) so that mighy help out a little bit with the speed.

Are there any GG2017 schemes and strats that this crew will be frustratingly bad at?

 

 

[retnab]

A lot of the crew is pretty slow moving so the Emberling is going to need to be your scheme runner, for the most part.  Things that need you to interact around the board like Covert Breakthrough, Recover Evidence, Set Up, and Inspection will be a little trickier.  Be careful of Eliminate The Leadership as well, since Mei Feng likes to get into fights herself.  However she does excel at some things, especially Undercover Entourage.

[Mxbedlam]

You will have to use mei as a scheme runner in many cases. I'd drop a single rail worker and maybe get a union miner or a wind gamin to help you scheme. Angelica with Practiced Production is another choice to help you get up the board and place markers.

[WWHSD]

3 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

mYou will have to use mei as a scheme runner in many cases. I'd drop a single rail worker and maybe get a union miner or a wind gamin to help you scheme. Angelica with Practiced Production is another choice to help you get up the board and place markers.

In addition to what I have in that crew I have the Ramos Box + Electrical Creation + Arachnid Swarm. Would it make sense to drop a Rail Worker (or two) and run Steam Arachnids instead as scheme runners?

[spooky_squirrel]

Angelica by herself gets you around all the slowness issues you'll find with Rail Workers, and if you're getting Wind Gamin up the table (or Soulstone Miners), they can be solid nodes for placing the Practiced Production Scheme marker.

 

Hard Worker on Kang is the better bet because of his base size. You end up having a better footprint for the aura, and it's a lot harder for someone to block line of sight between Kang and Mei Feng.

As for the crew, Rail Workers and Kang aren't just "pretty killy", by the by. Rail Workers hit like a truck. Due to their (0) to discard a card to get  on all attack and damage flips, you're more likely to be in a position where you're getting to cheat damage or pick the higher card. It only gets better if your opponent is using constructs or undead. Hard Worker makes it so that Kang's 3/4/6 damage spread on a melee 7 attack ignores Hard to Wound and Armor. He also benefits from his own aura. Today I surprised a couple of players at an event with how hard those drudges hit.

 

If you need schemes done, Steam Arachnids can help a lot. If you really need to hit something, they can help there too. Their latch on ability is absolutely priceless when you really need to kill sometime. I wouldn't use more than two of them, as they won't do enough on their own in limited numbers. Rail Workers are good into schemes that require holding ground or killing things, while Steam Arachnids are quicker, and thus better suited for dashing into places to drop scheme markers or mark other models.

[Ludvig]

If you take a strategy like turf war or guard the stash that doesn't require any ap to do you should be able to handle at least one interact scheme while doing a killy scheme. A spider is a better scheme runner than a rail worker, especially if there's terrain where you want to go.

When you get a showgirl with practiced production later on any list you ever field will do most marker schemes with relative ease but no need to rush into lazy plays just yet.

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

When you get a showgirl with practiced production later on any list you ever field will do most marker schemes with relative ease but no need to rush into lazy plays just yet.

Assuming that I never get any beasts or any showgirls other than Carlos, what models are going to be my best scheme runner options?

I like MS&U and Foundry but I don't care for the rest of the Arcanist faction all that much.

[Ludvig]

27 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Assuming that I never get any beasts or any showgirls other than Carlos, what models are going to be my best scheme runner options?

I like MS&U and Foundry but I don't care for the rest of the Arcanist faction all that much.

How do you feel about frozen heart and gamin? Ice dancers are really good runners and wind gamin can fly so are marginally better than spiders. I think Ramos can spawn so many spiders that he can handle most schemes but barring that you are more or less handicapping yourself in some pools if you want to play "optimally". Factions are more or less balanced to do any scheme pool but thematic crews have obvious weaknesses.

[PositronMike]

Probably the best Foundry scheme runner is the Porkchop especially if you take Sparks as well. Porkchop is Wk6 so can cover ground and Sparks can make it fast to allow it to drop 2 markers a turn if needed. Other good options are Sparks and Willie, both are Wk5 and both can take some effort to deal with. They are not the best scheme runners in the faction but they can do the job. From the M&SU side your best bet are probably Soul Stone miners and Union Miners.

[Mxbedlam]

Firestarter is a pretty awesome scheme runner too, and you can get an alt one or a translucent/day glo one without getting kaeris if you need. 

[WWHSD]

7 hours ago, Ludvig said:

How do you feel about frozen heart and gamin? Ice dancers are really good runners and wind gamin can fly so are marginally better than spiders. I think Ramos can spawn so many spiders that he can handle most schemes but barring that you are more or less handicapping yourself in some pools if you want to play "optimally". Factions are more or less balanced to do any scheme pool but thematic crews have obvious weaknesses.

Yeah, I get that I'm handicapping myself a bit by not buying the optimal models in faction for a certain role. At least at this point, sticking to models I like is more important to me than always getting the most effective models.

I'm planning on picking up Ironsides and Sandeep eventually so getting the Wind Gamin would make sense. Fluffwise they go with The Captain and Sandeep kind of wants the full range of gamin as options to summon.

[Adran]

On 2017-6-11 at 6:21 AM, WWHSD said:

In addition to what I have in that crew I have the Ramos Box + Electrical Creation + Arachnid Swarm. Would it make sense to drop a Rail Worker (or two) and run Steam Arachnids instead as scheme runners?

Short answer, yes, it would probably make sense to drop 1 rail worker and put in a spider. The biggest downside to this is that its a whole new profile to learn, and model to learn what to do with. 

A good idea might be to try playing the list with 3 rail workers, and then try with 3 spiders and see how they differ. But you might not get enough games to really tell. 

 

Going back to your original question. 

The only Strategy that you will really struggle with is Stake a claim, but you are capable of doing it, (You might also struggle to deny reconnotre/interference, but are certainly able to score it yourself), and this is the strategy that most "Generic" crews will struggle with 

Scheme wise, Leave you mark, Covert Breakthrough, Undercover entourage, recover evidence and last stand will be tough but not impossible to do. You ougth to be able to do at least 1 one of them without too much trouble, but doing 2 of them might be tricky. But No scheme pool will force you to do 2 of them, so you will have the choice to pick other things. 

 

[hydranixx]

The only changes I would suggest, give your collection, would be to drop one Railworker for a Steam Arachnid and to try a few games exchanging Arcane Reservoir for Seize the Day.

Arcane Reservoir can be great but it;s often unnecessary. At 2ss, it is not a cheap upgrade and it often provides only a very small gain. Seize the Day on the other hand, is always exceptional at 1ss, especially with an aggressive, mobile fighter such as Mei Feng.

[WWHSD]

4 hours ago, hydranixx said:

The only changes I would suggest, give your collection, would be to drop one Railworker for a Steam Arachnid and to try a few games exchanging Arcane Reservoir for Seize the Day.

Arcane Reservoir can be great but it;s often unnecessary. At 2ss, it is not a cheap upgrade and it often provides only a very small gain. Seize the Day on the other hand, is always exceptional at 1ss, especially with an aggressive, mobile fighter such as Mei Feng.

With Hard Worker and Implacable Assault on the Rail Workers requiring a discard it seems like the extra card from Arcane Reservoir will almost always come in handy.

[hydranixx]

If you find it necessary, then fair enough. I usually manage with 6, though admittedly 7 is nicer with discard affects. Were I to run Arcane Reservoir, I would probably drop Vapormancy for Seize the Day.

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, hydranixx said:

If you find it necessary, then fair enough. I usually manage with 6, though admittedly 7 is nicer with discard affects. Were I to run Arcane Reservoir, I would probably drop Vapormancy for Seize the Day.

Maybe being able to get + flips on Initiative is more valuable than I'm imagining that it will be. Having never played, the extra card seems like a powerful choice to help get the cards that I need to cheat and while still being able to afford discarding a card or two per turn. I'll have to give them each a shot and see which seems to work better for me.

[Adran]

7 hours ago, hydranixx said:

The only changes I would suggest, give your collection, would be to drop one Railworker for a Steam Arachnid and to try a few games exchanging Arcane Reservoir for Seize the Day.

Arcane Reservoir can be great but it;s often unnecessary. At 2ss, it is not a cheap upgrade and it often provides only a very small gain. Seize the Day on the other hand, is always exceptional at 1ss, especially with an aggressive, mobile fighter such as Mei Feng.

I personally hate seize the day, but adore Arcane reservoir. Arcane reservoir always does something for me (every extra card in my hand is good), where as Seize the day at best allows me to recover from my play mistakes.

But I learnt to play and lost about 90% of my initiative flips, so play each turn as if I'm going to be going second next turn anyway. If your style is the riskier style where you will put models in danger and need to win Initiative to go first to help you survive those risky alpha strikes, then you will probably see good results from Seize the day. 

(please note, I'm biased. I'll also not recommend models with the ability to cheat initiative to new players because I think it gets them into bad habits as they learn. )

 

[spooky_squirrel]

In another system I learned to deploy like I will never win initiative, and to assume that the dice won't roll higher than a 3 when coming up with a plan. So while I periodically think "if I get this, and this, and this, and a miracle occurs, then bam!", the pragmatism that experience has beaten into me will chime in with "nice plan, would you let your opponent do it to you? What would you do to stop it?"

 

With most Arcanist masters that I've played, I have to find a very strong reason to not take Arcane Reservoir, because every time I've passed on it with Ramos, Sandeep, and Colette, I've regretted the decision. With Mei Feng I haven't had as strong a need for it, but I'm designing my crew around only using 1-2 cards for cheating, the rest are to discard for abilities (typically to get positives/focus or ignore armor; yes, having an extra card in hand makes this go further, but there's also card draw in the crew). I also try to play her cagey-like, so she's nowhere near as aggressive as I used to play her. With a more conservative and cagey approach to playing her, I've found no real need for Seize the Day because the board state at the end of the previous turn is the best I could squeak out and I'm operating under the assumption that even with positives and stoning to reflip, I could still flip all four aces on initiative.

For two stones, Arcane Reservoir lets you get more out of your deck early and maintain a larger hand. Sometimes it's more garbage, sometimes it's exactly the card you needed. The larger hand comes into play if you're doing things that require discarding or cheating, or you know you're facing a hand-controlling opponent/master. I've seen people argue that if you'd stone for cards 2+ turns in a game, it pays for itself. This line of thinking is not completely wrong, but it can be misleading. Stoning for cards doesn't give you an extra card in hand for cheating on important duels or activating abilities. What you need to look at is returned value and lost potential/resources.

• With Arcane Reservoir, you spend 2 stone and a Master upgrade slot. What you get in return is an extra card in hand at the start of every turn. You can use this card wherever needed. Stoning for cards lets you cycle through cards, but not keep any extras; that is, it can help fix a lousy hand but it doesn't expand it. AR expands it, but does not cycle cards beyond granting you an extra one in hand.
• With Seize the Day, you spend 1 stone and a Master upgrade slot. What you get is a positive twist on the initiative flip, whether you want/need it or not. Sometimes you'll still lose, and sometimes you'll see a pair of severe cards go to the discard when you don't honestly need or want to go first (i.e., your opponent has more activations and you want to limit how much they can influence the board state uninterrupted at the end of the turn, so you "win" initiative and have your opponent go first).

In both cases you're giving up a Master upgrade slot.
If you are led into thinking "I spend stones for cards and initiative re-flips", you might have even given up two Master upgrade slots. If you're running a master like Mei Feng, Ramos, Sandeep, Marcus, or Ironsides, you're missing opportunities to use the things that make them really tick. It might be worth it to you to do this if your Master of choice only has one upgrade you care about (i.e. Grab and Drop on Kaeris), but if you want to make the most of Ramos attrition, then he's probably using two of his own upgrades to get stuff done.

A lot of people love Arcane Reservoir because that extra card in hand comes up for them often with how they play (and in my experience there are Masters where it is almost always the case where I want at least one card from a specific range of cards in my control hand). I imagine that people that love Seize the Day play in a way where they feel more pressure to win initiative.

[hydranixx]

Thanks for commenting guys. I think a lot of us get stuck in our ways when it comes to upgrades so it's good to revisit exactly why it is we justify certain upgrades and why we avoid others. 

I don't speak for all players who take Seize the Day, but for me, it is less about relieving 'pressure' to win initiative, and more about the extra control it provides. I don't necessarily put myself in a position where I must win initiative to have a chance, but I am always in a position where winning the flip is advantageous in one way or another. 

No matter how cagey I play, there will come at least one turn every game (usually turn 3 or 4) where winning initiative allows me to secure or deny a VP (especially with Accusation, and to a slightly lesser extent, Dig Their Graves, being so common in pools) or to kill or save something that absolutely must be killed or saved. In some games there will be multiple turns like this. Seize the Day pretty much doubles the chance that I'll win that potentially game-winning initiative flip, so for me it's a big priority and can't be easily replicated or replaced.

I do like Arcane Reservoir, and I can see its value (especially if you're packed with discard affects). With multiple Railworkers and Hard Worker I could even agree with you that Reservoir is worth at least as much and most likely more than Seize the Day. Though it does sadly pale in comparison to many other sources of card draw, at least it is 'permanent' and doesn't require you to actually do anything. 

Yet I honestly believe that if you're taking Reservoir, Seize should still be strongly considered as Mei's third upgrade. While Vapormancy is attractive for the Ca attack and trigger, I never get excited from it unless I know I'm going to encounter lots of Incorporeal models. The vent steam trigger can feel superfluous; I will often ignore it in favour of triggers provided by Seismic Claws, and if I really want a stack of Vent Steam, I'm not risking an opposed duel with my opponent to secure it. I'm just making it happen for 1 Ap.

I will make a concerted effort next time I play Mei Feng to purposefully not take Seize the Day to see how it compares. Different metas seem to produce different priorities, but I'll humour you and try your way to see how it goes.

[katadder]

usually run my mei feng with vapourmancy, seismic claws and price of progress. this last upgrade allows you to heal and when she kills something also draw a card. if you go after the low level stuff this is almost as good as arcane reservoir and sometimes better for card control whilst being cheaper and bringing in healing.

[spooky_squirrel]

8 hours ago, katadder said:

usually run my mei feng with vapourmancy, seismic claws and price of progress. this last upgrade allows you to heal and when she kills something also draw a card. if you go after the low level stuff this is almost as good as arcane reservoir and sometimes better for card control whilst being cheaper and bringing in healing.

I usually do this as well, even when I know I'm using her primarily as a support piece creating a nope! field on or around an objective.

Price of Progress comes up when using her as a finisher, regardless of what attack you use. With some of the new stuff coming up, if Fragile +n actually comes in the way it was in beta, this will come up even more. This is one of the things I do for card draw that helps keep things rolling.

Vapormancy has an additional trigger for the claw and kick attack actions of Mei Feng's, but what I bring it for is the attack stat of 7, the cast for when I need to hurt incorporeal models, blasts with burning, and the fact it's a 3 that doesn't pull me out of position whether or not it succeeds. Sure, the kick's chasing mechanic can be a real terror for models that desperately need to get out of Mei Feng's reach, but if you're using her 3" engagement reach or Vent Steam bubble to lock down an area you need her to stay put while still being able to provide a denying influence to the board.

The one that sees the least use from me out of these three is the Seismic Claws upgrade, but it still sees use. If I'm trying to figure out what to swap out for a generalist Arcanist Master upgrade (like Arcane Reservoir) this is the one that's being examined closely (in context of victory conditions and expected opposing crew). That's primarily because I'm not often dropping her into a horde-based crew (Gremlins I typically drop someone else into) and if I'm taking the time and AP to set up a speed boxing match for Mei Feng, I'm probably not actually working the strat and schemes. Some of the limitation is also because I'm not using Mei Feng as an aggressive early queen, but rather as a mid-game bully and late-game closer.

[WWHSD]

I unexpectedly had my collection grow in a  Ten Thunders direction. A friend of mine (that doesn't play Malifaux) sent me a Misaki box and Izamu that he had picked up awhile back but had never gotten around to assembling. The Torakage look like they might make decent scheme runners (and scheme runner interceptors) but 7 points (6+merc tax) seems like it might be a bit much for what they bring to the crew.  

[Nikodemus]

Torakage are pretty decent for 6ss, I like'em a lot. For six stones. Can't say I'd hire them if they were 7ss a piece, unless I went for style over performance in my list (which I admittedly do from time to time).

I don't see any compelling reason from a competitive standpoint for you to assemble & paint them for Arcanist Mei Feng.

[dannydb]

well essentially are they better scheme runners than ice dancers? I mean they seem to be our premium scheme runners

[hydranixx]

Agreed. For a similar price, you're better off hiring an Ice Dancer or 2 Wind Gamin etc. I usually opt for The Firestarter with IE for this role with Mei. He's excellent at scheming, and is decent at hunting enemy scheme runners so he fits a similar role as Torakage. I find 'Ignition' a welcome addition in this crew, as he can empower Mei's Claws get their  to damage, or stack Burning on a model that the Emberling can go snuggle with later on in the turn so that it doesn't expire.