Neverborn totems... Somthing I don't like...

[Da Git]

So, Neverborn seem to have a problem with Totems

There's the:

• Auto-takes because they're an essential part of the Master's mechanics or just really, really good (Huggy/daydreams/Voodoo Doll/Marienettes)
• The Primordial Magic, 2ss models are such a bargain, there's a reason they made Mindless Zombies and Seishin unhirable and why people have problems with Stuffed Piglets. The Scribe/Daydreams also fits into this category too as they're 2ss too.
• Those that suffer from not being the Primordial Magic (Cherub/The Gorar). EDIT: add Poltergeist to this list.

I mean you're never going to see a Lynch list with Primordial Magic, you might with Zoraida if you're not going the condition route, but with the new Will o' Wisps, that's less likely now.  Zoraida's Totem is now essentially Will o' Wisp to summon Voodoo dolls.  I'm fine with all of this...

It's the last two, that irk me.  Both the Cherub and The Gorar are both perfectly fine totems, although The Gorar does need a few Minions to accompany it...  The problem is you can get the Primordial magic for 1ss less.  Pretty much all the competitive scene recommends dropping these fluffy totems for Primordial.  THIS I think is a shame.

So, solutions, the simplest one would probable be for the next Errata to either drop the Cherub and The Gorar to 2ss, or up the Primordial Magic to 3ss.  Personally I think the former the better option as at least now, the Primordial Magic is a consideration for Lucius and Zoraida but at 3ss, will never be seen. I Also don't think a 2ss Cherub or The Gorar will massively overshadow the Primordial Magic, especially if you don't take any/many minions for The Gorar to rebirth.  What do you think?

EDIT: Not sure what should be done for the Poltergeist... Up the range of Distraction? Increase its wounds?  Cheaper?  Give it something that if you kill it, something bad happens to the enemy?

EDIT 2: Fixed latter/former error

[-Loki-]

You missed the Poltergeist, Pandoras Totem, in 'Those that suffer from not being the Primordial Magic'.

Neverborn aren't alone in this. Gremlins, for example, have the odd Totem that works really well with the masters playstyle (like Skeeters), otherwise Old Cranky.

I feel in the next round of errata, they could really do with giving the really underused Totems a looking at. A price drop is the easiest but laziest way to fix them. The best way would be fixing them to work better with their masters playstyle.

Personally I gave it my best to make the Poltergiest work for me, but for 2ss it's just too hard to pass on the Primordial Magic. Personally I do like the Cherub though, I think it's pretty underrated. I'll also be giving the Gorar a real run as well when I start putting Titania on the table.

[hydranixx]

25 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

Personally I gave it my best to make the Poltergiest work for me, but for 2ss it's just too hard to pass on the Primordial Magic.

Have you tried it with a Wisp? I recently played against Pandora toting a Sorrow, a Poltergeist & 2 Wisps. Those (2) actions can be wonderful when they only cost (1).

[Da Git]

35 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

You missed the Poltergeist, Pandoras Totem, in 'Those that suffer from not being the Primordial Magic'.

Neverborn aren't alone in this. Gremlins, for example, have the odd Totem that works really well with the masters playstyle (like Skeeters), otherwise Old Cranky.

I feel in the next round of errata, they could really do with giving the really underused Totems a looking at. A price drop is the easiest but laziest way to fix them. The best way would be fixing them to work better with their masters playstyle.

Personally I gave it my best to make the Poltergiest work for me, but for 2ss it's just too hard to pass on the Primordial Magic. Personally I do like the Cherub though, I think it's pretty underrated. I'll also be giving the Gorar a real run as well when I start putting Titania on the table.

Yes, I'd really like the next Errata to be a bit of a focus on totems!  Thanks, I'll add the Poltergeist.  And yes, the Gorar's not bad, just needs a crew to work with.  Another fix for him would be to make him not need to be within 6" of the centre to do his resser tricks.  Anywhere not within 6" of their deployment zone would make it interactive and not just hide him, but give it a lot more options. 

6 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

Have you tried it with a Wisp? I recently played against Pandora toting a Sorrow, a Poltergeist & 2 Wisps. Those (2) actions can be wonderful when they only cost (1).

Don't know if this is what you're referring to, but Wisps can't copy the Sorrow's Doldrum attack as it can only copy Tactical actions.  The Poltergeist's Paranormal Activity is fine to copy.  Not sure if it makes it worthwhile, but it's an option.

[hydranixx]

Is that right? Well I wish I read into that closer... I might have won that game if I had :L. Wisp paralyzed my Crooligan two turns running.

[-Loki-]

I've considered it, but taking a 3ss model to 'fix' a 5ss model I'm already unhappy with doesn't seem like a good use of 8ss. I've got some games coming up and I've just painted a Wisp, so I might give it a go.

That's still 8ss to do the Paranormal Activity trick. I can think of other uses for the 6ss left after hiring the puke snake.

[Da Git]

So potential solutions for these totems?  What would people like to see?

[Kyris]

 

3 hours ago, Da Git said:

either drop the Cherub and The Gorar to 2ss, or up the Primordial Magic to 3ss.  Personally I think the latter the better option as at least now, the Primordial Magic is a consideration for Lucius and Zoraida but at 3ss, will never be seen. I Also don't think a 2ss Cherub or The Gorar will massively overshadow the Primordial Magic, especially if you don't take any/many minions for The Gorar to rebirth.  What do you think?

I think you got "latter" and "former" mixed up..

Here's an easy way to remember; Latter=Last. Former=First.

 

Or I'm misunderstanding something? You say you'd rather Have Primordial Magic at 3 than Cherub/Gorar at 2, but give nothing but reasons why Cherub/Gorar should be at 2.

 

I try not to be a grammar nazi but it's a bit confusing what you actually mean as is.

[Da Git]

2 minutes ago, Kyris said:

 

I think you got "latter" and "former" mixed up..

Here's an easy way to remember; Latter=Last. Former=First.

 

Or I'm misunderstanding something? You say you'd rather Have Primordial Magic at 3 than Cherub/Gorar at 2, but give nothing but reasons why Cherub/Gorar should be at 2.

 

I try not to be a grammar nazi but it's a bit confusing what you actually mean as is.

Very true, I do know the difference, I just stuffed up! (It's been known to happen... frequently!)

[Kyris]

Just now, Da Git said:

Very true, I do know the difference, I just stuffed up! (It's been known to happen... frequently!)

Yea, I do it myself some times. That's part of why I try to use word association with last/latter, first/former...I also spent a few months volunteering as a teachers aid, so you pick up a few tricks like that.

 

that said. I think Gorar has potential to be a lot better than he is now even keeping him at a cost of 3, I'm not sure the best way to do that..Maybe making him a bit beefier? or maybe give him some better way to synergize him with Titania such as scheme marker tricks I don't know, I'm just of the mentality that a model should be improved stat/abilities wise rather then just dropping the cost of it.

[Pikciwok]

@Da Git So, the only totems that suffer from 'pukeworm syndrome' are Cherub, Goroar and Poltergeist? That's not that bad.

Cherub is a nice totem IMHO, especially when you play on GG2016 schemepool (Exhaust their forces). Two days ago on the tournament in Warsaw (GG2017) a player who earned third place did some impressive scheme running with Cherub and a pack of Corrupted Hounds.

Honestly, I see nothing good in Goroar, though I never played Titania. Could somebody who actually played it explain to me how to use it properly? It's insignificant peon with low Ca. The only real use of it I can think of is sitting within 6 inches of the center, preferably behind some LOS blocking terrain, and making Defensive Stance +2.

I do think most people who criticize Poltergeist never really played him. It's a good, fast incorporeal minion, like Insidious Madness. Plus it has that flips Wp  AND Ht 3, so that even in thick melee everyone in range is affected by it. Putting opponents models on flips is the best way to win combat in this game. That's why everyone loves Yin's (0) action. Newsflash: this aura is better. With Pandora's activation control and Doppelganger initiative cheat you can easely set Poltergeist on the position before activating Pandora. Recently I decimated Mei Feng Crew sitting in Vent Steam Bubble using Poltergeist, Sorrow and Inflict. Very card-effective. Very lethal. Plus, her totem has magical extension, so if you play Voices Dora it can move 6 inches and paralyze someone with low to mid crow. It's worth 5 soulstones, isn't it? Best Polish Neverborn player always uses Poltergeist.

The pukeworm is cheap and great because all you have to do to make him work is to keep it on the table. That's a lazy man's safe option. But I really doubt it's always the best one. Seriously people: give Cherub and Polter a try!

[katadder]

I like the poltergeist as well. really effective with pandora and people end up concentrating on hitting that rather than something else. I always forget that its a woe and I could have saved it in my last tourney with pandora.

combine with insidious madness, pandy and sorrows (maybe throw in widow weaver) and pretty much everyone will struggle with willpower based tests

[Joel]

I've been using the cherub instead of pmagic since the start of 2016 - no complaints there!

tbh though, many totems in the game are not taken at all.  In neverborn you'll almost always take one.

 

when did you last face the following?:

student of conflict

Scales of justice

governors proxy

essence of power

 

[Mutter]

49 minutes ago, Joel said:

I've been using the cherub instead of pmagic since the start of 2016 - no complaints there!

This.

The Cherub is such a no-brainer for me. I sometimes even debate 'going Lilith' JUST because the Cherub. It makes some schemes almost trivial, and if I could take the Cherub with other Neverborn masters, I would.

Well, not with Lynch or Dreamer, but you catch my drift.

 

And for the record, I don't use marionettes with Collodi (effigies are his totems!) and recently with Pandora turned from the puke worm to the poltergeist. Don't really see the problem, to be honest ...

[Four_N_Six]

First, I take offense about the Poltergeist.  I bring him all the time.  Barbaros nearby with Challenge going and a poltergeist putting you at negative flips?  You'll never hit the Poltergeist and it makes Pandora's attacks extremely dangerous.  Hell, throw it near Teddy and all of a sudden the model that's easy to kill isn't so easy to kill.   A TN 13 Horror Duel is pretty horrifying when you can't cheat it.  Even a good WP model needs a 6 to get that off.  Definitely not impossible, but it'll make them think twice, that's for sure.

Secondly, I think this is an issue with most factions.  Looking at Gremlins, I bring Old Cranky with most of my masters.  Som'er, Ophelia (whom I don't play), and Zipp are the only real exceptions (Zoraida having already been mentioned here).  There are some hard "Cranky" masters.  Those (for me) being Wong, Ulix, and Mah Tucket.  I will admit that the Little Lass hasn't gotten a lot of testing out, but when I see a master that does a good amount of killing, I'd rather Old Cranky be nearby to give me soulstones back.

Even Brewmaster, who's totem gives you a 1-Up Mushroom, I've had varying success with Old Cranky.  I used Cranky in 2/3 games this past weekend and ended up doing much better in the tournament than I usually do.  

I suppose it just goes according to how good the faction generic totem is.  Personally, I think it would be cool if the next book had new totems in it.  Either a new one for each master and give some flexibility there, or just one new generic totem per faction.  Go along a little with the new masters we just received last year.

As for Neverborn, it's all situational.  I suppose in a game like Turf War or Guard the Stash, the Gorar wouldn't be an awful choice for Titania.  The extra card from PM is nice, but does she REALLY need that last minute scheme marker?  Jacob Lynch will always take his totem, as will Zoraida.  Though I've had a little success with Mama Z using the PM for a couple of rounds just for that quick scheme marker point and then summoning in the Doll later.  I've only got one game in with Colodi, but I'm sure his totem will always be there for him.  

The only master I always  take PM with is Lilith, to be perfectly honest.  That's mostly for the double down on Rush of Magic.

[Ludvig]

The problem isn't nvb totems being too bad, it's the primordial magic being too good for it's cost. In guild I often take my master's totem since the generic one sucks a**. In neverborn I sometimes take primordial and sometimes my master specific one and I've had great use of the cherub which you list as unplayable. The primorsial magic should be three soulstones at least. It is an extremely good card cycle worth about 2ss to just draw more cards and then usually grants straight up VP which is just insanely strong.

[Sharp_GT]

8 hours ago, Pikciwok said:

Honestly, I see nothing good in Goroar, though I never played Titania. Could somebody who actually played it explain to me how to use it properly? It's insignificant peon with low Ca.

I'm in the same boat here. The gorar just doesn't actually do anything with its ap. Ap is what wins games, and this thing doesn't have any effective ap. At least the puke worm makes up for its poor ap by being worth vp just existing.

5 hours ago, Joel said:

when did you last face the following?:

Scales of justice

Just recently I played against scales with a collodi crew in reckoning [it shouldn't have gone as well for me as it did] and I'll say that it did not seem to do much for my opponent before I coryphee'ed into the ground. I think he drew maybe two cards off of it?

I'll say that neverborn totems seem to be very specific, or very easily replaced with a puke worm. Huggy is never going to not come along with lynch, but the poltergeist can easily be replaced by an insidious madness. Daydreams are pretty good, but are just ss banks after the january errata, and a puke worm could honestly pull similar duty by saving you ss on cards. Collodi loves a bunch of cheap minions, but there's nothing about marionettes that makes them must takes over other minions. The rewrite on lucius and his totem looks good but someone with more experience will have to tell me one way or another if that really is the case.

[Vorschlag]

Starting to actually use Pandora occasionally now as Im trying to develop my neverborn skill level outside of Zoraida and Collodi has been lacking, I'm starting to enjoy using Poltergeist along side sorrows and wisps.

Of course this build has some obvious weaknesses but it's the first time I've also enjoyed taking sorrows, so maybe the wisps can fix a couple of Pandora's problem models.

[KrazyIvan]

12 hours ago, Ludvig said:

...The primorsial magic should be three soulstones at least. It is an extremely good card cycle worth about 2ss to just draw more cards and then usually grants straight up VP which is just insanely strong.

This exactly. The card draw alone is worth 3ss in my opinion.

[-Loki-]

18 hours ago, Joel said:

when did you last face the following?:

student of conflict

 

I take it you don't face the Viktorias often.

[Ludvig]

The scribe does solid work for me but the pukeworm is always a consideration.

[-Loki-]

The praise in here has made me reconsider the poltergeist. I'll give it another go running alongside the Will o' the Wisp.

[marke83]

Simply put, I feel naked without that 7th card.

[Pikciwok]

2 hours ago, -Loki- said:

I take it you don't face the Viktorias often.

All Victorias players I know use the Child instead

[katadder]

agreed, viks use the child, brings healing and a free casting of sisters in fury allowing the viks to concentrate on killing. you only need fast once usually anyway before out of range of the child and thats a quick oathkeeper on blood to go kill things