Gremlin Problems - Gremlins are bad or I'm Bad

[DefyingReality]

Malifaux can be a pretty brutal game for most new players, and it takes a LOT of repetition and trying things over and over again and in different ways to start seeing the patterns and combinations needed to succeed. I've found success with my (admittedly limited) pool of Gremlins with most schemes in one form or another, but there's not specific advice I can give. Gremlins lean very, very, very heavily on reading the board and reacting accordingly, more so than most factions in my experience. 

As to why you're having issues killing Peacekeepers... well, that's just a rough matchup. They will tend to slaughter Gremlins, but they'll slaughter many things. If you're facing more than one at a time in a single game, though, then your opponent is cheating, as to the best of my knowledge they're a Rare 1 model. Regardless of that, however, the best thing you can probably do is keep throwing cheap, expendable models at it to slow it down while you go about your business elsewhere. Piglets, Stuffed Piglets, Bayou Gremlins, that like. Yes, they'll die fast, but they'll keep the Peacekeeper from closing down on you as ably and keep their massive killing power at bay. Being able to essentially take an 11-stone model out of the game like that is a massive blow to your opponent, and since it's only defense 4 you can still whittle it down steadily even with Armor +2 and HtK.

[Tris]

@Maroon Core

But take for example your other "problem model", the new Wirchling Thrall - Francois charges him and kills him in one go if all 3 attacks connect at minimum, less if you manage to get the higher up the track.

That`s 7-8 stones against 9, so you`re up in the race here. And you have Trixie/Ill Omens, so are likely to get a second swing with him, maybe with le´ss damage, but good nonetheless, and he remains a problem for your opponent.

 

Wong for example laughs about a peacekeeper, and if the problem was getting away from it, why didn`t you push the peacekeeper away?

Or, if you`re playing Zoraida  - obey the peacekeeper/Thrall to hit themselves, or walk away from your stuff?

 

And what did you play against that the opponent managed to bring a peacekeeper and a thrall to your deployment zone first turn? McCabe?

 

I`ve lost loads of models against gremlins, they are maybe the hardest hitting faction out there^^

[EnternalVoid]

6 hours ago, Maroon Core said:

I'm still a bit insure how cheaper easier to kill gremlins match up to other models though. In my last game it took almost 30 points of models to kill a peacekeeper just so I could get away from the dammed thing. Even with Trixie pushing stuff I barely made it our of standard deployment when the peacekeepers and thrall pair got me and killed most of my crew. Even with Francois charging, and getting obey from zoraida.

A peacekeeper is a walking tank, literally that it what it is, a walking tank with claws... razor sharp ones.  It has Armor +2 and Hard to Wound making it so anything with a weak damage of 3 or less is going to deal 1 damage a hit.  With 11 wounds it can endure a lot of little hits.  But it is Df4, that means even Bayou Gremlins have the advantage attacking it.  Really the biggest problem is that it is Terrifying living 12 otherwise you could easily bury it under a wave of attacks with cheap models.  But like a Tank it does not like anything that is designed to deal with it.  Anything that can ignore armor makes damage build faster and anything with a high enough damage can overcome its durability.

Take your Francois that you had charge in and get obeyed by Zoraida, there is actually a Better way for you to approach that case.  If you have two face cards in hand have Zoraida can go first and Obey Francois to Focus.  You can have her do it again if you like but if you don't you will have to have Francois go Reckless and focus with his first AP.  The idea is to get Focus +2 on Francois.  Now with a Ml6 against the Peacekeeper's Df4 you are aiming to win the Duel by at least 1, thus why you need a face card.  With Focus +2 for 3 cards you might not need to cheat the face card but it is safer to have it in hand just in case.  When you hit, and you need to hit so you only have a single negative so no letting him match your total thus drop a 12 or 13 to make sure, declare your Dumb Luck trigger, the double positive to damage from Focus will negate the Hard to Wound and the difference in the duel making it a strait flip.  Then cheat in the over severe card for 10 damage.  Sure with its armor it only takes 8 but you just knocked it down to 3 wounds which is much easier to drag down.  Then on your next attack you can press 1 damage through or use Dumb Luck again to deal 2 damage after armor.  If you dealt 2 that leaves the Peacekeeper at 1wd.  So with a little support from your master your 7ss model almost killed an 11ss model.  Sure your 7ss is not well off, even with dirty cheater Francois might be sitting at only a couple wounds left but if you have the resources you can at least patch him up a little bit.

Against the Witchling Thrall this is a bit harder due to Impossible to wound but as mentioned Tris, Francois could kill one by himself in 3 swings if they all hit at weak damage with Dumb luck.  Someone like Burt could easily deal 9 damage in a single go against a Thrall and he is 7ss vs their 9ss.

I am curious how your opponent though got the Peacekeeper and thrall on top of you so quickly, Thralls have a walk of 5 with a 6" push making only for 16" of forward momentum unless another model assisted.  The Peacekeeper is even slower at only 10".  There should be 24" between your deployment zones so you would have needed to at least be 6" or so out of your deployment turn 2 for them to be reaching you without aid.

 

I do think you are making a misconception though.  Weak cheap gremlins are not always suppose to be able to take down beefy expensive models.  4 Bayou Gremlins are not suppose to always match up to a 11ss model in strait combat.  They might win sometimes but they will also lose plenty.  Those gremlins have value in other areas rather than pure strait combat such as multiple activations and the ability to fulfill schemes even if one bites the dust.  This is not a game like Warhammer where games are won by combat resolution so models are not all assigned value by that.  If you take a mass of cheap models and think you can just throw them at your opponent and weak them down you might be mistake as some models will be able to prevail against swarm tactics if combat is your only focus.  A peacekeeper comes baring down on you like a locomotive?  throw a single Stuffed Pig in its face.  Sure the pig is going to bite it, likely in one hit, but now the Peacekeeper cannot charge and if it moved that far in advance of the rest of the crew no one can likely free it from combat to spare it from having to kill the pig.  Even better would to have the Stuffed Pig charge as it might due a point or two of damage before it goes and help you work it down.  Thrall activate first and kills the pig to spare the Peacekeeper from spending the AP?  Throw another stuffed pig in and continue the damage.  Try to only pick fights you can win, otherwise consider stalling.  Another great model for this is the Skeeter with Somer, with Df7 you stand a very good chance if you have a 13 in hand of making them miss.  I have pestered many of killing machines by having a Skeeter go defensive then fly 10" into a killer and watching them flay around failing to kill it.  With its good melee they are unlikely to disengage either locking them in place.  The only thing you have to worry about is models with Pushes freeing them, but with Somer you can have a second skeeter to retie them up.  Heck if you place them right they can tie up both the Peacekeeper and the Thrall forcing your opponent to react to you instead.

 

And I hate saying this to answer your other question but the best schemes for Gremlins are the ones you design your crew to complete.  An elite crew with a selection of Enforcers and henchmen is better for Hunting Party and one with more cheaper models might favor Claim Jump or Search the Ruins.  I know my answer is a bit of a cop out answer but the truth is Gremlins are not really hurting in any field for completing schemes or Strategies, they really are a competitive faction in the grand scheme of things.  Just that like with any faction you need to know what your options are and what your opponent is capable of to pull out the full power.

[cfrag]

6 hours ago, EnternalVoid said:

And I hate saying this to answer your other question but the best schemes for Gremlins are the ones you design your crew to complete.  An elite crew with a selection of Enforcers and henchmen is better for Hunting Party and one with more cheaper models might favor Claim Jump or Search the Ruins.  I know my answer is a bit of a cop out answer but the truth is Gremlins are not really hurting in any field for completing schemes or Strategies, they really are a competitive faction in the grand scheme of things.  Just that like with any faction you need to know what your options are and what your opponent is capable of to pull out the full power.

This is very true. You said you have trouble with schemes that have to drop scheme markers. I, on the other hand, love schemes with scheme markers or interactions when playing Ulix. Having activation control and being capable of having piglets drop schemes as a (0) action is huge.

 

I can say that picking the right schemes is very important. I lost many game until I realized that. It's the difference from playing against your adversary or playing against your own goals AND your adversary.

One example: If you pick Assassinate and Murder protege, you better have a very very killy crew. Killing a master is never easy, but killing a master and the most expensive enemy model needs a very specific crew. I used to pick those 2 because I thought "well, im gonna be killing things anyway". It's never that easy.

 

Conversely, you don't pick shceme dropping schemes without scheme runners. And it should be plural, because runners are suaully squishy and you don't want to lose the game because one of them died.

It very much depends on the type of crew you enjoy playing. I like activation control and outnumbering my opponent, so I tend to not kill the deadliest enemy models, and instead I just toss some stuffed piglets their way while I put pressure dropping as many scheme markers as possible early game, following by focusing on strat. Then, my opponent will have to think about countering my schemes, while worrying about the strat AND thinking about their own schemes.

 

About the peacekeeper in particular: last time I played against one I had a Glowy McTavish and Sammy. Sammy used the trigger that makes peacekeeper incapable of moving/charging, while mctavish just blasted his ass from afar. It was some easy 3VP from murder protege. If I wasnt doing that scheme, I wouldnt even bother killing the peacekeeper since it wouldnt be doing much

[crimzzen]

My logic is generally this:

Is my opponent likely to bring a crew looking to fight/has armor:  Wong - Glowy and swine cursed.

Is the pool generally scheme dropping heavy or reliant on lots of models - Somer - summoning.

Zipp can be tossed in there on those in-between matchups.

 

To be honest, If im not expecting armor, I'll usually bring somer.  He can blast, he can summon, he can provide the rams his crew needs, he can be very hard to kill, he can mess with enemy summoners, etc etc etc.  He's very versatile.  Wong comes out generally if I see arcanists.

[Four_N_Six]

I thought it might be better to post this here than making a new thread, since it's on the same sort of topic.

 

Had a tournament this past weekend.  Decided I wanted to play my precious greenskins one last time before I do Ressers for a little while this year (though the tournament just made it harder for me to switch.  I do love these little bastards).

First round I ran Mah Tucket against Ironsides.  Every time I do extremely poorly against an opponent, I typically consider it to be due to my lack of understanding of opponent models.  This wasn't much different.  I'm familiar with Iron Sides, but nothing else in the crew was something I knew of.  Ended up with a 4-8 loss in Headhunter.  I took Frame for Murder on Old Cranky (which I scored full 3 on turn 1), and Recover Evidence.  Primary reason for my loss here was having Fingers as my lynch pin model.  He was blocking heads and evidence (opponent took it as well), while also picking them up for me while engaged.  He became a high value target and I didn't have much of a back up plan (should have had the First Mate as well).

Second round I lost hard, which was partially my mistake and partially my opponent's extremely dumb luck.  Misaki (another crew I'm mostly unfamiliar with) against Zipp.  This is the first time I've lost with Zipp, other than the first few games getting used to a new master and crew.  His dumn luck was rocketing Misaki straight at the First Mate, who I was counting on for Stake a Claim, killing it turn 1.  This was dumb luck, because he only targeted the Mate to get rid of the piano upgrade so he wouldn't have to worry about it.  Problem was, the upgrade was on a skeeter.  Sucks for me, lucky for him.

Third round Zipp absolutely annihilated Rasputina.  Corner deployment, Zipp got to her, dropped her into the back corner, and shot her with the gun all game to keep her at walk 1.  She was essentially useless the entire game.  This is the game where First Mate stood out the way he's supposed to.  Ended up with armor 6 (opponent only had scheme marker schemes) and helped me get the new always scheme (name escapes me, but after this game I don't hate it as much as I did when I first read it).  That game ended up 10-3, and I only actually killed 1 model the entire game.  A good way to end the day after a couple of losses.

 

My big issues are:

1) I tend to have a plan that hinges on one model.  I don't have a back up a lot of the time, and boy does it screw me over

2) I tend to get a plan, and then abandon it before it's complete, which costs me games.  Zipp had Misaki down to 1 wound in round 2, and then I was counting on Pere (a hiring mistake, don't ask) to finish her off, which he didn't do.  So I almost had her killed to get my 3 points for it and then walked away before she was finished.  Mistake.  I'm used to them.

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

I'm curious about the Ironsides' crew composition. Do you remember which models your oppo played?

[Four_N_Six]

Ironsides (obviously), Soulstone Miners, Arcane Effigy, pair of Gunsmiths, two union miners, I think they were. I don't remember anything else, but that's only 40 stones, I think.

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

Thanks mate

[Bazlord_Prime]

@Maroon Core

Did you ever end up Vassaling with @Joel? That's a great offer, and one you certainly should've taken advantage of. I get the feeling that if someone experienced can have a look at what you're doing, we'll all be clearer on how to help you out. 

Failing that, do record and upload one of your (more typical) games to YouTube, so we can all check out your play and offer some informed tweaks etc to you :-)

[Joel]

No, he hasn't yet taken me up on the offer.  It still stands.

[spooky_squirrel]

If you're wanting to mess with Impossible to Wound and Hard to Wound targets, Moon Shinobi might be amusing to use, as they turn those negatives into positives. Last time I played Brewmaster and company I would cheat to ties to abuse their Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu to get better damage spikes. You still will not be able to cheat damage into the Thralls, but you'll at least have a single positive baked in due to their ItW, plus any others that result from the differential inversion.

[Maroon Core]

A lot of good points here. And I'm still playing. But still having a bad time of it. Recently lost a game 0 to 8 because of three opposing models I could not kill or run far enough from to get any points. 

 

I'm still a bit insure how cheaper easier to kill gremlins match up to other models though. In my last game it took almost 30 points of models to kill a peacekeeper just so I could get away from the dammed thing. Even with Trixie pushing stuff I barely made it our of standard deployment when the peacekeepers and thrall pair got me and killed most of my crew. Even with Francois charging, and getting obey from zoraida. 

 

I'm absolutely sure I'm terrible at p8cking schemes. I can't tell what my opponent my choose and inevitably mine turn out badly. Budon't care that much about that as its something I have to learn as I gonna which I'm working on. But there are a dozen models that if my opponent fields them my gremlins still crumble just by them being on the field and in the way. 

 

Also... what are the best schemes for gremlins? I've found that I cannot ever kill enough for any scheme that requires it.. assassination, headhunter. Or whatever. And I also keep getting 5 points or less if I try to do schemes that require markers. I mean really the peacekeepers can clear markers and I can't do much about it. With markers I tend to get so crushed in the first two or three turns so badly I can't run schemes anymore. 

 

I'll be trying out a bunch of these tips this week in prep for a tourney. Thanks for the help. 

 

If I end up selling the gremlins is there a place malifaux players go for that? 

[Bazlord_Prime]

Sure - maybe it's just that Gremlins don't gel with your innate playstyle.

Have you tried any other Faction tho, before you sell them off? Do you like the look of any of your friends factions? 

Trixie - have you tried using her to push your opponents models away?  From up to 18" away, she has a chance to push it its charge (6"), and give it slow. 

Do you have Wong? And McTavish, or Rami LaCroix? Give one of the latter two models Wong's "Magical" Condition, and they'll ignore Armour. Will make it a lot easier to kill the Peacekeeper. Actually, just stick "Magical" on Francois, since you already have him. Maybe try to Focus with him before charging as well (he has Reckless after all).

If you don't have Wong, look for the other Armour-bypassing attacks: Lightning Bugs, and Swine-Cursed.

Which Masters do you use? 

[Bazlord_Prime]

As for "Which Schemes are best", i think the real answer to that - for any Faction - will always be "any of them". Every Faction has so many and varied models that you can put together a specialist crew to accomplish any of them perfectly well. That's the balance of the game.

I will say that i prefer Schemes that score early, but that's just me. Gremlins can die off quickly, so sooner can sometimes be better.

I know it can be daunting tho, trying to pick out the best Schemes from the huge array of game mechanics that they offer. Maybe just decide on which ones seem most fun to you, and pick a crew around that. Honestly - you can do massive amounts of damage with Gremlins, or put Scheme markers everywhere, flood the board with models, deny interacts, push models out of position...all sorts.

[Tris]

1 hour ago, Maroon Core said:

A lot of good points here. And I'm still playing. But still having a bad time of it. Recently lost a game 0 to 8 because of three opposing models I could not kill or run far enough from to get any points. 

 

I'm still a bit insure how cheaper easier to kill gremlins match up to other models though. In my last game it took almost 30 points of models to kill a peacekeeper just so I could get away from the dammed thing. Even with Trixie pushing stuff I barely made it our of standard deployment when the peacekeepers and thrall pair got me and killed most of my crew. Even with Francois charging, and getting obey from zoraida. 

 

I'm absolutely sure I'm terrible at p8cking schemes. I can't tell what my opponent my choose and inevitably mine turn out badly. Budon't care that much about that as its something I have to learn as I gonna which I'm working on. But there are a dozen models that if my opponent fields them my gremlins still crumble just by them being on the field and in the way. 

 

Also... what are the best schemes for gremlins? I've found that I cannot ever kill enough for any scheme that requires it.. assassination, headhunter. Or whatever. And I also keep getting 5 points or less if I try to do schemes that require markers. I mean really the peacekeepers can clear markers and I can't do much about it. With markers I tend to get so crushed in the first two or three turns so badly I can't run schemes anymore. 

 

I'll be trying out a bunch of these tips this week in prep for a tourney. Thanks for the help. 

 

If I end up selling the gremlins is there a place malifaux players go for that? 

Is that really the same post as on sunday???

 

Sorry, but did you want to write something different and just messed your copy&paste up, or should we stop reading and trying to help you here?

[crimzzen]

I really don't find Gremlin models die any faster than other models at the same point cost. A min damage 3 model has always seemed to kill other factions models in the same number of AP it takes to kill a gremlin.  Maybe min dmg2 swings things a bit more but honestly it's not like my gremlins die in droves.  "Bayous die quick"  Sure, but they're only 3 points.  IMO they're one of the best 3 point models in the game you can take multiple points of in terms of output, resilience and scheming (something like the wendigo might be better but you only get 1).

 

I suspect that if you try another faction you would have similar thoughts about resilience.  The peacekeeper is a tanky bruiser but he's also more than 20% of your list and def4.  We have models that ignore armor and he should fold with a concerted effort.

[spooky_squirrel]

18 minutes ago, crimzzen said:

I really don't find Gremlin models die any faster than other models at the same point cost. A min damage 3 model has always seemed to kill other factions models in the same number of AP it takes to kill a gremlin.  Maybe min dmg2 swings things a bit more but honestly it's not like my gremlins die in droves.  "Bayous die quick"  Sure, but they're only 3 points.  IMO they're one of the best 3 point models in the game you can take multiple points of in terms of output, resilience and scheming (something like the wendigo might be better but you only get 1).

 

I suspect that if you try another faction you would have similar thoughts about resilience.  The peacekeeper is a tanky bruiser but he's also more than 20% of your list and def4.  We have models that ignore armor and he should fold with a concerted effort.

Fun thing to do with a 3 stone model against a big bruiser (also works against shooters/blasters):
Jam it.

Double walk, push, pigapult, whatever it takes, get that 3 stone model close enough to engage the big bruiser before it can do anything meaningful (i.e. activate in the midfield). Now it either (1) needs another model to come relieve it or (2) needs to spend AP killing a 3 stone model that has no other job to do than distract it. Your 3 stone model forces your opponent to spend a resource (AP) dealing with it on your terms, instead of theirs.

[cfrag]

12 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Fun thing to do with a 3 stone model against a big bruiser (also works against shooters/blasters):
Jam it.

Double walk, push, pigapult, whatever it takes, get that 3 stone model close enough to engage the big bruiser before it can do anything meaningful (i.e. activate in the midfield). Now it either (1) needs another model to come relieve it or (2) needs to spend AP killing a 3 stone model that has no other job to do than distract it. Your 3 stone model forces your opponent to spend a resource (AP) dealing with it on your terms, instead of theirs.

Bonus points if you can achieve this with a stuffed piglet. 2SS to stall an 11SS model for a whole turn AND put some damage on it on death? Yes plz!