Beacon of Knowledge Box - Somewhat Baseless Wondering

[decker_cky]

8 hours ago, The Warlock said:

I was originally going to pass up Sandeep in favour of Reva, but his background made me reconsider. Also: Gamin! It'll be interesting to see if all the gamin have the same conditions for summoning or if there's specific requirements for each type.

That would be a pretty messy rule if there were 7 different conditions for summoning.

[The Warlock]

I was thinking more along the lines of flipping a card and depending on what suit is flipped (and TN is met), a gamin is summoned- ie fire on a ram, metal on a tome, ice on a crow and wind on a mask- that sort of thing.

[Bengt]

5 hours ago, The Warlock said:

I was thinking more along the lines of flipping a card and depending on what suit is flipped (and TN is met), a gamin is summoned- ie fire on a ram, metal on a tome, ice on a crow and wind on a mask- that sort of thing.

I would hate it if he summons a random type. I wouldn't be surprised if the two summoning upgrades uses different resources, summoning mechanics and/or allows a different subset of Gamin, but random summons would be the final nail in the coffin for a master I'm ambivalent about.

[katadder]

dont worry about it, it will all be fine  

[Krosanreaper]

My feelings on the summing is that both will let you choose a gamin or his totem, but one will cancel out slow the other will bring them in at full wounds. Time will tell soon enough.

[decker_cky]

49 minutes ago, Krosanreaper said:

My feelings on the summing is that both will let you choose a gamin or his totem, but one will cancel out slow the other will bring them in at full wounds. Time will tell soon enough.

If he summons any gamin, there's an easier way to let him summon his totem than to specifically call it out....

[brdparker]

On 7/25/2016 at 1:45 AM, Bengt said:

I would hate it if he summons a random type. I wouldn't be surprised if the two summoning upgrades uses different resources, summoning mechanics and/or allows a different subset of Gamin, but random summons would be the final nail in the coffin for a master I'm ambivalent about.

Agreed (apart from the ambivalence), but it could easily be a cheatable flip, giving you a measure of control.

[Krosanreaper]

On 7/25/2016 at 10:37 AM, decker_cky said:

If he summons any gamin, there's an easier way to let him summon his totem than to specifically call it out....

I for one welcome the gamin king. Speaking of Banasuva, that's what intrigues me most right now. How expensive will it be? Sandeep's cash of 4 makes me doubt it will be free. Might be interesting if it is a gamin and gives out buffs to gamin but that's not mentioned in what little description we have.

 

[BFOmega]

I just realized, with his gamin focus, which are minions, the Arcane Emissary's Arcane Conflux could be really good, with the atk to minions, which would also work when they are taking Sandeep's spells through Beacon.

Kinda makes up for the new masters not having personalized upgrades.

[Dereikt]

True, but considering that the bonus from Arcane Conflux applies to all minions, it feels like a waste to use it on the weakest minions in the faction rather than the stronger ones, and most of those stronger minions will usually do better using their own attacks than borrowing Sandeep's with a -1 Ca penalty.  

Generally, I'm finding it hard to see how the Gamin can form a useful summoning pool given they are not only the factions weakest minions, but also in most cases designed to provide specific synergies to a specific master and crew which don't apply to Sandeep. One Gamin focussed upgrade wouldn't be too bad, but two definitely feels excessive, especially in the context of 'a Master who will always want to take one of his limited upgrades'. 

Edited July 30, 2016 by Dereikt

[Jordon]

I don't really see gamin as weak. I see them as specialized tools designed for a mostly singular purpose. In that regard, I feel like summoning them will add some extreme utility to Sandeep. Metal can hold points, Fire is an amazing ranged support, Wind is great for running schemes/ killing enemy scheme runners, and Ice is a good all rounder, that runs better in pairs. Knowing when to use them will really come in handy and if it's a Ca action, they can be summoned by any model within beacon range (Gamin summoning other Gamin!), giving it a huge amount of utility. No other summoner has that kind of board presence when it comes to summoning. 

Also lets not forget that these models will be summoned with "different benefits and drawbacks for the summoned Gamin" depending on the upgrade taken. So there will likely be more to it than just your typical gamin model. 

[Krosanreaper]

5 hours ago, Dereikt said:

 One Gamin focussed upgrade wouldn't be too bad, but two definitely feels excessive, especially in the context of 'a Masrer who will always want to take one of his limited upgrades'. 

From his description on his page the limited upgrades are his Gamin summoning upgrades.

"He has two Limited Upgrades: To Behold Another World and To Command Another Plane, both of which allow him to enhance his Gada Attack [...] Both Limited Upgrades also allow him to summon Gamin, but which Upgrade you choose will come with different benefits and drawbacks for the summoned Gamin"

So you then have two slots for his other upgrade (Unaligned Sage) and general upgrades.

[Bengt]

4 hours ago, Jordon said:

Knowing when to use them will really come in handy and if it's a Ca action, they can be summoned by any model within beacon range (Gamin summoning other Gamin!), giving it a huge amount of utility. No other summoner has that kind of board presence when it comes to summoning. 

Beacon is limited to Ca actions printed on the stat card, and with good reason IMO. Also not very surprising considering the amount of "not mentioning a model by name" in copy action actions.

[Dereikt]

5 hours ago, Krosanreaper said:

From his description on his page the limited upgrades are his Gamin summoning upgrades.

"He has two Limited Upgrades: To Behold Another World and To Command Another Plane, both of which allow him to enhance his Gada Attack [...] Both Limited Upgrades also allow him to summon Gamin, but which Upgrade you choose will come with different benefits and drawbacks for the summoned Gamin"

So you then have two slots for his other upgrade (Unaligned Sage) and general upgrades.

This is precisely my point. He has two limited upgrades, he's designed so that he has to take one of them, and rather than conferring differing playstyles and themes, as with Kaeris, they're both  summon Gamin upgrades. There's no prospect for playing a version of Sandeep which isn't focussed on summoning weak minions, and even if I was interested in playing that style of master, it feels redundant in a faction that already has Ramos and the Mech Rider. 

Aside from anything else, Gamin simply aren't interesting as the theme for a crew, being not even true bound spirits but merely sub-sentient spells. Even more than their usefulness, their character is dependant on their being a small element of a larger theme, meaning it's lost if they are removed from their original crew.

[retnab]

I actually quite like the idea of the Gamin as his summons. Obviously we can't know what his strengths/limitations for the summons are until next weekend but it's already more flexible than Ramos which has me excited. Summoning 3 spiders for (1) is strong, but if you need some ranged presence they're not exactly an option.

Depending on the range of his summoning spell he could theoretically be able to place Gamin right where he needs them, which considering Fire, Ice, and assumingly Poison Gamin give off damage and effects when they die could be pretty handy. Being able to just put a Metal Gamin for Protection of Metal by the model that needs it or a Wind Gamin in the direction you need Schemes will be pretty strong I'm sure.

[Krosanreaper]

5 hours ago, Dereikt said:

This is precisely my point. He has two limited upgrades, he's designed so that he has to take one of them, and rather than conferring differing playstyles and themes, as with Kaeris, they're both  summon Gamin upgrades. There's no prospect for playing a version of Sandeep which isn't focussed on summoning weak minions, and even if I was interested in playing that style of master, it feels redundant in a faction that already has Ramos and the Mech Rider. 

Aside from anything else, Gamin simply aren't interesting as the theme for a crew, being not even true bound spirits but merely sub-sentient spells. Even more than their usefulness, their character is dependant on their being a small element of a larger theme, meaning it's lost if they are removed from their original crew.

I don't realy see the problem. Marcus has two limited upgrades that are very similar with small changes to his game play, like how Sandeep's will have some effect on his melee and his summoning. Having a second master that doesn't rely on the Mech Rider for summoning isn't a bad thing. And as you pointed out all Arcanist summoning is of fairly small models, if you want to summon more powerful things you've got to grab Rezers or a small number of other masters.

And why do you feel that Sandeep must focus on summoning? Sandeep brings more than just summoning, strong casting and tactical actions, what looks like a strong melee after his upgrades, giving those summoned models access to better attacks with beacon. To me the summoning seems like a great extra, not a focus or a theme. And we don't even know all of his unique tricks are with summoning.

As far as gamin not being an interesting theme, that's for everyone to decide themselves. I like the four elements (plus poison I guess?) coming together in one crew. It's not just fire or ice, it's the whole spectrum. Admittedly I'm more excited about bringing in Academics to support him and make Oxfordian mages more flexible.

[madaxeman]

On the subject of Gamin, and seeing the new box art, surely the only important debate about the new Master and Crew  is whether the new Gamin will henceforth be referred to by their US or UK English names - making them either "Snot Gamin" or "Booger Gamin" ? 

[hydranixx]

 

On 7/31/2016 at 6:58 AM, Krosanreaper said:

Sandeep brings more than just summoning, strong casting and tactical actions, what looks like a strong melee after his upgrades, giving those summoned models access to better attacks with beacon. To me the summoning seems like a great extra, not a focus or a theme. And we don't even know all of his unique tricks are with summoning.

I couldn't agree more. The ability to loan out whatever action your lowly minion needs to get the job done, and then follow it up with Sandeep casting a spell of his own afterwards for free, opens a lot of options up. The most straightforward of which is moderate damage from Arcane Storm, while the rest can get additional movement, healing or interactions. There's a lot of combinations that he offers even before we start to look at his summoning, though I think both of his (0) actions would be particularly nasty on a freshly summoned minion. 

Imagine Arcane Effigy with him - use it's (0) to pump up all his attack actions with either extra burning or discard, walk or focus for 1ap, then cast Arcane Storm with Beacon, then let Sandeep use Student of All to fire an Arcane Storm of his own. Accomplice then lets Sandeep have his activation afterwards, firing potentially 3-4 Arcane Storms, all benefiting from Effigy's (0) action, and able to reposition once with The Path of Salvation anytime during the middle of this. That's one crazy alpha strike. 

On 7/31/2016 at 6:58 AM, Krosanreaper said:

Admittedly I'm more excited about bringing in Academics to support him and make Oxfordian mages more flexible.

The Valedictorian is a good Resser Henchman, but I think it will be an even better Arcanist Henchman . Mages are awkward because they're really slow, but really want to be in range to Furious cast. Sandeep is the perfect solution, and they will heavily benefit from the extra movement provided by potentially both of Sandeep's (0) actions. I like it.

[clockworkspide]

Also, Valedictorian with Imbued Energies.

[Krosanreaper]

47 minutes ago, clockworkspide said:

Also, Valedictorian with Imbued Energies.

And Warding Runes, especially with all the synergy Sandeep already has with Oxfordian Mages.

 

Me and a friend actually recorded a discussion about Sandeep for his youtube channel if anybody wants to listen to us chatter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPpN46RhsHc

I made one big mistake, forgetting that Sandeep's 'Student of All' ability can only be used once per turn for a max of one extra action.

[Adran]

On 30/07/2016 at 1:30 PM, Dereikt said:

This is precisely my point. He has two limited upgrades, he's designed so that he has to take one of them, and rather than conferring differing playstyles and themes, as with Kaeris, they're both  summon Gamin upgrades. There's no prospect for playing a version of Sandeep which isn't focussed on summoning weak minions, and even if I was interested in playing that style of master, it feels redundant in a faction that already has Ramos and the Mech Rider. 

Aside from anything else, Gamin simply aren't interesting as the theme for a crew, being not even true bound spirits but merely sub-sentient spells. Even more than their usefulness, their character is dependant on their being a small element of a larger theme, meaning it's lost if they are removed from their original crew.

I don't think there is anything  there that says he is designed to have take one of the 2. We have is base card, and there is nothing on the base card that needs you to have gamin. 

Looking at his stat card I think he will work perfectly well not as a summoner if you don't want to summon. You can easily focus on Acedemic, or just a general mish-mash or arcanist models.  Its not impossible for sandeep and another model to move Howard 15" before he even has to move his nimble on the first turn. (Its probably possible for it to be more, but it starts getting hand dependent then). 

And Molly's 2 limited upgrades are both summoning upgrades, yet they lead to very different molly play styles. 

 

[retnab]

So I'm surprised there's been total radio silence on the new Arcanist models both here and on AWP, especially when some factions (namely Guild) have had very detailed synopsis posted on their new goodies. Does anyone at gencon want to pass on some info as to what the rest of the crew box, new upgrades, and the other 3 models do?

[Krosanreaper]

16 minutes ago, retnab said:

So I'm surprised there's been total radio silence on the new Arcanist models both here and on AWP, especially when some factions (namely Guild) have had very detailed synopsis posted on their new goodies. Does anyone at gencon want to pass on some info as to what the rest of the crew box, new upgrades, and the other 3 models do?

Also surprised by how little I've heard for Arcanists even on anonymous image boards. However this podcast has a summary of all the new box sets and a little more.

http://mf2e.com/archive/mf2e_3.mp3

Sandeep's summoning comes with special upgrades, three per limited, Banasuva is an 8 point gamin and a badass that can only be brought in by summoning it. Sandeep is also limited to only having three of his summons out at one time. Poison gamin are 5pt models, and no info on Kudra.

[retnab]

Sadly I'm running on very unreliable internet (on a road trip) so podcasts are no good, thanks for passing that info on though. How are the poison gamin? I'm surprised at the 5pt cost, they must have something nice to compensate for that?

[Krosanreaper]

That's one thing they don't go into mostly just saying that they are a little better than the other gamin so Sandeep has one more option than 4pt dudes and the 8pt Banasuva.

They mention a few of the gamin upgrades Sandeep gives out and I've seen them elsewhere. There are three "Commands" and three "Visions"

 

Commands in Earth - Model may not be moved or pushed / +1Rg , +3Rg

Commands in Fire - Model may not cheat fate / Model is immune to slow

Commands in Wind - Model may not attack / Other models in 3 get to attacks

 

Visions in Earth - Model may not be moved or pushed / Constant Yammering 6 like on Zipp's card

Visions in Fire - Model may not cheat fate / May interact while engaged

Visions in Wind - Model may not attack / May interact the turn it is summoned