SlackerLM Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 So, as Outcast players, so do you think banning the Rat Engine for all masters save Hamelin the only way to control it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 I'm not for banning anything in the game but if you really, really have to limit it somehow then make Rats hire-able to Hamelin only. P.S. I'm saying this only because if I see yet another threat about Rat Engine problem, then I'll surely get Blighted +1 and start to spread it around... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlackerLM Posted June 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 1 hour ago, daniello_s said: I'm not for banning anything in the game but if you really, really have to limit it somehow then make Rats hire-able to Hamelin only. P.S. I'm saying this only because if I see yet another threat about Rat Engine problem, then I'll surely get Blighted +1 and start to spread it around... I hear you on both points regarding the Rat Engine. I just want to know how great do we believe the change needs to be and do we apply that across faction (Belles only hired by Seamus, for example.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patzer Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 Atm no. We need more evidence before changes are made. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 Couldn't personally say. I don't have enough data personally, nor direct experience with it to say I'd feel comfortable just outright banning them at present. I will say that Levi and the Rat engine, both together and separately, seem to me to have the best evidence supporting some kind of change, but that doesn't mean there is enough evidence. As to whether Justin agrees which is really the main thing, and exactly what those changes might be, if they ever materialize, I couldn't say. Perhaps the solution, if one is required, is to give the rats a rule that they can't activate, and then create an upgrade that can only be attached to X model (like a nihilist) that allows them to activate all the rats in some range of aura after the model's activation as a chain activation rather than outright banning them or making them un-hirible. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 Something I came up with recently, give Malifaux Rats an ability like, "Mindless Scurrying - This model may not activate. Any time another model activates within 6" move this model its walk towards the nearest friendly Malifaux Rat in play. If this model ends a move within 4" of three or more other friendly Malifaux Rats immediately sacrifice them and summon a Rat King into base to base with one of the sacrificed models. If the crew is led by a friendly model with the Nihlist characteristic it loses this ability." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lusciousmccabe Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said: Couldn't personally say. I don't have enough data personally, nor direct experience with it to say I'd feel comfortable just outright banning them at present. I will say that Levi and the Rat engine, both together and separately, seem to me to have the best evidence supporting some kind of change, but that doesn't mean there is enough evidence. As to whether Justin agrees which is really the main thing, and exactly what those changes might be, if they ever materialize, I couldn't say. Perhaps the solution, if one is required, is to give the rats a rule that they can't activate, and then create an upgrade that can only be attached to X model (like a nihilist) that allows them to activate all the rats in some range of aura after the model's activation as a chain activation rather than outright banning them or making them un-hirible. I think a hiring restriction would be much tidier. If you want to patch them via an upgrade on another model then moving the tangled up ability elsewhere might be your best bet. Although if the people who run this already take Nix for infectious melodies that might be irrelevant. Not that I think this is necessary one way or another. I'd rather it be the straw that broke the camel's back and saw Leveticus patched to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenstuff_gav Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 3 hours ago, daniello_s said: I'm not for banning anything in the game but if you really, really have to limit it somehow then make Rats hire-able to Hamelin only. P.S. I'm saying this only because if I see yet another threat about Rat Engine problem, then I'll surely get Blighted +1 and start to spread it around... i run a Nix Animal list and rats feature; this is the problem with hiring restrictions, it limits crew availability! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 44 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said: ...and saw Leveticus patched to be honest. NEVER! (Hur-hur-hur) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 It does look like a rather strong option, for one turn of the game, but since I can't see rats working for any master other than Hamelin I'd be reluctant to play it. If the sacrificing of the Obedient Wretch and Rat King was a simple duel against a target number, even a lowish number, it would at least consume resources and run the risk of Black Jokering instead of being an automatic eight or so activations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 21 minutes ago, Freman said: It does look like a rather strong option, for one turn of the game, but since I can't see rats working for any master other than Hamelin I'd be reluctant to play it. If the sacrificing of the Obedient Wretch and Rat King was a simple duel against a target number, even a lowish number, it would at least consume resources and run the risk of Black Jokering instead of being an automatic eight or so activations. The standard ratctivation build should guarantee activation control turns one and two (limits you to about 4 activations for 8ss on turn one, but you get ~10 on turn two) If you're lucky you should be able to get a good number of activations out of it turn three as well (minimum 2-3 I think). So it's really not a "blow your load turn one" trick the way it's often presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeeblee Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Yeah, part of the proper execution is also using two-to-four activations to test the waters and see if you need to kick it into gear. Even if you trigger it early there's nothing requiring you to complete the full chain, and thus you can maintain padding for the following turns. That said I think for most of the Outcast masters is registers as simply a strong (and boring for certain populations) technique. It becomes the possibly overpowered technique that everyone is discussing when paired with a master who can cause mass destruction (Viks and Levi) in addition to a standard beater investment (thus two killing machines for the price of one). I haven't seen anyone bring it up, but I'm curious how the rat engine works with Misaki. Is she like Tara in that she could appreciate the boost, but doesn't go over the top, or does her assassin nature let her take advantage of the engine in a fashion similar to Levi and the Viks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 I'm actually surprised that we haven't seen that, but I think she's generally overshadowed as an assassin by Levi and the people running ratctivation are decidedly ptw folks, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 I'm surprised no one asked for banning Rat Engine in Tara's crew so far. Take her with usual upgrades, Killjoy, Bishop, Nix with Infectious Melodies, Obedient Wretch and Rats so you can deliver two bombs on turn 1 and then win initiative on turn 2 and continue onslaught. I demand banning Tara as well 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jokerboy Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 I don't think that it is necessary to ban the rat engine. I have never played Outcast myself, but very often against them and also the rat engine. I played against it with nearly every faction and never had a problem with it. Of course you have to adept your play style against this amount of activations, but it is not even close to be OP or something. The discussion about a special combo in Malifaux is always the same. Some people are not able to handle a special list and then call it a "game problem", but it is a "player problem". It was the same thing with the Mechanical Rider, or Leveticus in general etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacks85 Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Yeah, I believe there is no need to ban engine. Out-activation is extremely strong in the first two turns, than it becomes totally useless - waste of point mostly. And Hamelin itself - with his crew - is very weak compared to almost every other master/mechanics in the game....mostly in the tournament when you often do not play the 4 or 5 turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 59 minutes ago, Shen Long said: I don't think that it is necessary to ban the rat engine. I have never played Outcast myself, but very often against them and also the rat engine. I played against it with nearly every faction and never had a problem with it. Could you describe the situations you've encountered the rat engine (friendly play, local tournament, regional tournament), what you were expecting when your opponent declared "Outcasts", what you brought, and any special considerations you took with your crew? Also, what brand of rat engine was it? Full-on Ratjoy with Killjoy, Nix, and a bunch of rats? Viktorias? Leveticus? Your opponents' level of proficiency with the rat engine and their crew? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin66 Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Being new to Outcast's and Malifaux in general. What would a Rat Engine crew consist of? I've the Vik's boxset, Sue, Hans and Bishop. Looking for Vanessa. Appaerntly she is hard to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Read this. It started the broader topic on the Rat engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jokerboy Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Kirby said: Could you describe the situations you've encountered the rat engine (friendly play, local tournament, regional tournament), what you were expecting when your opponent declared "Outcasts", what you brought, and any special considerations you took with your crew? Also, what brand of rat engine was it? Full-on Ratjoy with Killjoy, Nix, and a bunch of rats? Viktorias? Leveticus? Your opponents' level of proficiency with the rat engine and their crew? Most of the time tournaments and nearly every situation. Lets say 40% Hamelin, 30% Leveticus, 20% Vikis and 10% the other masters. Sometimes just the Ratjoy-Bomb sometimes just Wretch and Rat for Outactivating. The masters I played in most of the Situations were Shen Long, Hoffman or Pandora. against Killjoybomb: Crew formation that only the models that can survive Killjoy (there are enough models that can) are reachable. against Out activation: You just need a fast first turn charge (4th or 5th activation) with medium strength. Against many activations pressure is everything. Sounds easy and so it is. I am not saying that everything is exactly as I think. These are just my experiences and so I don't understand the whole discussion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebarbalag Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 I highly recommend reading Icemyn's post. I come down on the side that the engine isn't the worst thing in the world, but 1) it has a negative impact on the meta, 2) it has a negative impact on enjoyment of competitive play, and 3) while it is possible to deal with, it is not, by any stretch of the imagination, easy to deal with, and writing it off as such is probably a bit naïve. Well-played Viktorias with the rat engine can be unstoppable, due to their own mobility, the fact that you get a truly brutal crew-killer for free (or cost of upgrades - Mark of Shez-uul and Oathkeeper), access to deadly back-up like Ashes and Dust, the Desolation Engine, or Killjoy, and finally that their primary weakness is an inability to stand up to retribution, which is blunted significantly by getting the back half of the turn all to themselves, and the change to have first activation on the top of the next turn as well. There's a pretty decent chance you won't have anything left by the time you get to activate anything in turn 2. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Shen Long said: against Killjoybomb: Crew formation that only the models that can survive Killjoy (there are enough models that can) are reachable. RatJoy can literally get anywhere on the board, so how do you manage to 'hide' anything? Yes terrain can play a big factor here, but that ins't always going to go your way. And being able to survive Killjoy can be very hand dependant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the proxy union Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 As someone who plays the rat engine a lot, (also played against it a few times) I don't think it needs to be banned because the out-activation just isn't that strong after turn 3. also ratjoy in a non hamelin list will cost you 17 points plus killjoy for a grand total of 29-30 stones of your list for a single cruise missile. If your cards aren't good enough the first turn, (1-2 crows plus at least a few 9+'s to make the fat man hit) then your killjoy bomb fails, or only gets one thing. this doesn't take into account the fact that a decent ranged game can put enough pressure on the rats to slow you down a turn. also, killjoy is Df 4. you will hit him after he activates, and you will likely kill him if you commit 2-3 pieces to the job, honestly it's a lot like having a 10T player throw izamu at you with sensei: you know it's coming, it will hurt, and you cant kill it first. but you can deal with it if you don't panic. P.S. I am in full agreement with above posts that banning things is the wrong way to go about fixing the game. ratjoy is near the top end of the power curve but its not unbeatable. -proxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Yes out activation is less important late game, but in my experience most games are more or less decided in the first two turns if either player is remotely aggressive. Plus in gg2016 most scheme pools require you to be moving into position to score starting turn one - especially in tournaments where you might not see turn five. If just plopping ratjoy on the table gets your opponent to turtle for a turn it's winning you the game... Killjoy himself is no worse than Izamu, Rogue Necro, any other big beater. Kj with guaranteed out activation changes the formula that he's balanced around - ditto Levi or the Viks. You might beat someone who netlisted the crew and isn't great at the game but it brings strict advantages over other crews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jokerboy Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 5 hours ago, Paddywhack said: RatJoy can literally get anywhere on the board, so how do you manage to 'hide' anything? Yes terrain can play a big factor here, but that ins't always going to go your way. And being able to survive Killjoy can be very hand dependant. It is easy to build walls /cages out of your own models combined with terrain. It is not that easy for the rat to go where it wants to if you use your engegment ranges. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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