Gotcha rules and opponent knowledge

[-Loki-]

There seems to be a fair few rules that are designed around 'Gotcha!' style surprise mechanics. For example, Candys Sweets and Sours or The Guiltys not being flipped for when randomising shooting into combat. One such occurrence was in a recent game when an opponents Judge had rampaged through a Teddy and wound up in combat with Candy. Next turn he activated the Judge first to kill Candy, only to be paralysed as he didn't know what Sweets and Sours did.

It felt kind of like a dick move, but it also seems to be what these sort of abilities were designed for. Should I be reminding my opponent of such things before they do something to trigger one of these kinds of rules?

[Memnaelar]

I think the general consensus is that in friendly or even casual tournament play, you should remind your opponent.

In competitive tournament play, I don't think the obligation is as strong, although if your opponent is new to the game or the crew, it'd be sporting to at least give them an overview of those abilities before the game starts, even if you're not reminding them every activation.

[MudgeBlack]

I would say it depends on the type of game.  In a friendly game, especially if they have never faced your crew before or a new player, I usually give them a heads up.  In a tournament, they are free to ask or ask to see the cards but I don't normally volunteer the info unless they are new.

[zeeblee]

I think this is really an issue of "burden of knowledge."  For how great many of Malifaux's attributes are, in my opinion it scores rather horrendously when judged on burden of knowledge.  It's similar to not knowing the mechanics of characters/units in Starcraft, League of Legends, or Overwatch.  Unfortunately tabeltop mini games doesn't get the same resource of visual/auditory cues to help you learn, so instead each attribute can end up feeling like a "gotcha."

I'll stand behind the argument that in true competitive play you should expect your opponents to read up on stuff, but for pickup games and the like you can't really expect everyone to be up to date on tricks discovered on the forums or even to have read and memorized every card.  There's just too much!  Thus in casual games I'd say words of warning are pretty much necessary (albeit not technically required).

[Vorschlag]

Agreed, I give my opponent access to all the rule books and the cards, in casual play I will warn them, in tournaments I will not unless I am aware I am facing a new or inexperienced player.

When I introduce my crew (after selection) I try to give my opponent an idea of what they do if any of the characters are new to them.

[Ludvig]

I would remind them of that rule and allow them to change their declared activation as long as no cards were flipped. I would do that even in a tournament since I consider it the polite thing to do. The game is designed for both players enjoying themselves and I consider that unenjoyable to have sprung on me.

 

[lusciousmccabe]

I always remind my opponent of these kind of rules regardless of how experienced they are. Malifaux has too many minutiae for anyone to be expected to know off by heart.

The last time this debate came up it was over this phrase (from Rapid Growth 2015): "When asked, players should provide the information and statistics for models as well as any relevant additional public information" with most of the focus being on what constitutes asking and whether this gave you license to 'gotcha!' your opponent if they didn't ask you the magic question. In Gaining Grounds 2016 it's been replaced with "Players must be open and honest about the rules of their models" and as far as I'm concerned being open and honest means not waiting to be asked to provide the relevant information. 

These kind of abilities still affect the game without you having to rely to the element of surprise anyway. There are plenty of ways to force people to activate near Candy, and if you can't the very fact their their first activation can't be a model within 3" of her is useful (Sours is a bit more awkward, but that's to do with the ability itself). Taking a potshot into combat is seldom a good idea, but if your model is a Doppelganger it's not an option for your opponent while you can do it quite happily.

[bertmac]

Sweets and sours isn't really there as a gotcha its more for good use of incite.

If someone can activate something that doesnt have to and gain paralysed they should be reminded so that they activate something else.

As said above as long as no cards are flipped just saying this model will activate doesnt really affect the game.

[-Loki-]

Thanks guys.

About what I thought. At the moment I'm coming out of Infinity mode, where a lot of the competitiveness comes from what's hidden from your opponent. I'll make more of an effort to communicate to people what models do.

[lusciousmccabe]

Yeah, infinity is great for mind games but it has far more shared rules across models and armies to go along with it.

On malifaux the hidden information and ploys are all to do with the schemes and control hand.

[solkan]

For a while, I've been of the opinion that the best possible thing a person could do would be to have two sets of cards and just straight out hand the other player one of the sets.

Short of that, get little card stands or something and put your cards on the side of the table instead of in front of you so that your opponent can see the cards and reach for them.

If it's an open information game, having to ask questions about what it says on those cards on the other side of the table is just an inconvenience. 

[Ludvig]

Card stands on the side sounds neat. I'd like that for my own cards 

[Squirrelich]

13 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

Agreed, I give my opponent access to all the rule books and the cards, in casual play I will warn them, in tournaments I will not unless I am aware I am facing a new or inexperienced player.

When I introduce my crew (after selection) I try to give my opponent an idea of what they do if any of the characters are new to them.

+1 to all of this

 

8 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I would remind them of that rule and allow them to change their declared activation as long as no cards were flipped. I would do that even in a tournament since I consider it the polite thing to do. The game is designed for both players enjoying themselves and I consider that unenjoyable to have sprung on me.

 

and all of this

(underlines and bold I added for my emphasis as I think they are key points)

[LunarSol]

I try to always remind my opponent of a gotcha and give them an opportunity to do something different, even in tournaments.  Model rules in the game are just a little too dense and too difficult to reference to expect people to know everything on everything, particularly when you consider the way upgrades can alter how a lot of things really work.  There's no single concise way to browse through everything and really learn every model and even if there was, games are way more interesting when players are making properly informed decisions.

The interesting gameplay of gotchas doesn't come from punishing poorly informed players but creating board state puzzles for well informed players.  Sweets & Sours is a great example, as its primary value is in limiting activation options.  You see similar puzzles in other games with rules like Counter Charges or abilities that let models move away from combat automatically.  The real value in the ability comes from forcing your opponent to approach the model differently than they would otherwise and good players leverage that advantage without it ever triggering.

It's like how in Chess you can't willingly move to put yourself in Check.  There's honestly no real reason for this rule; it just doesn't result in a very satisfying or rewarding game.  I want to win; I don't want to waste my time allowing my opponent to lose.

 

[Sklertic]

I always warn my opponents beforehand, both of specific abilities and of triggers I might have to counter them. It's a question of empathy for me, I would hate to play against someone, who just waits for you to screw up, and then with glee tell you what you just did to yourself.

 

But to each his own, I've only played few tournaments, but I'd always prefer being a good sport and lose a match than winning by being the opposite.

[dropdeadcriminal]

Personally I tell people if I think they don't realize something. I would rather play an interesting game then one that defined by a gimmick. But I am not super competitive. 

I would add that, if I am extending a model I will tent to ask "does that model have some crap that will effect me if I charge it" or something like that. 

This also applies to the idea that the burden is on the opponent to know. I don't think either person want to take 15 minutes before the match to take notes on all the models in the opponents crew.  Think of how long it took for you to remember to use all the abilities of all your models. Then this becomes a game of memory instead of strategy. 

[paradoxstorm]

I'm on the other side. Strictly a casual player and my primary opponent knows my models better than I do.  He's really good about alerting me to any unusual special abilities before the game begins and frequently refuses to let me make an incredibly stupid move.  

It is appreciated.  

 

[Mr Janje]

The big one for me is a Sorrows Life Leech ability

When my opponent activates a model with 1 wound remaining and proceeds to take 1 damage from said Sorrow....

Always makes me feel a bit dirty as 99% of the time i feel they forgot about it :/
But then i remember i'm playing Pandora and don't care anyway :D!

[Tawg]

On 6/9/2016 at 5:51 AM, bertmac said:

Sweets and sours isn't really there as a gotcha its more for good use of incite.

This is all I was going to say.

Incite makes good use of Sweets and Sours (By forcing them to activate first), rather than trying to "trick" people into the situation.  Alternatively, if Candy moves close to their last few models which have not yet Activated, not much they can do about that either eh?

 

A lot of things also become about the heinous things you can combo-wombo, sometimes.  There is no "Should I remind my opponent I'm about to Vik's sling-shot them?" type "fair play".  Or the Set up for Dreamer to summon a Teddy and have it healed to full that turn (Typically using Tannen), subsequently devouring your team.  Not much you can do but play that out, and hope people learn from mistakes.

I remind opponents about Abilities when I can, but some of it is school of hard-knocks.  But something as easily circumvented as that, which is probably a "forgot // didn't know" type deal, I would expect to be lenient about.  All the same, if the game state has been set up for 2-4 Activations, because they thought they were being clever engaging one of your models so they could randomize a Blast into it or something, you can't always know what's on their mind.

Although to be fair, speaking openly about the moves in the game, IMO helps both players.  Even as far as discussing what potential moves could be made to achieve different Schemes (Which are still technically hidden), especially the more relaxed or - I guess practice- the matches are.  Although it can also slow down the game.