Are we that bad? Looking at the tiers discussion.

[4thstringer]

Man, that discussion of the tiers of masters really left me feeling adrift with guild.  Sure some people put McCabe up near the top, but I got the feeling most people are referring more to him with tt than with guild.  Once and a while we saw love for Dita or Sonnia, but other than that we often were heavily populating the bottom of the lists (especially poor lucius, who got the harshest hit from the GG of just about anyone, Levi included).

 

So are you guys finding yourselves losing a lot with guild?  More than usual?  Maybe it is just my love of our Secretary, but man is this a dire looking situation. 

[Myyrä]

I'm fairly sure I have never lost a game playing Perdita or Sonnia. The same is probably true for McCabe as well.

With Justice and Hoffman I win significantly more than I lose.

With Lucius I have been losing more than winning lately.

Never played McMourning.

[Ludvig]

I lose a lot with Lucius and play pretty decently with McCabe. I don't keep stats but I'd say I'm somewhere near 50/50.

i believe a couple of major tournaments have been won with guild so we can't be that bad as a faction.

[trikk]

Well, Sonnia was also highly rated.

 

Apart from Lucius (that should just get a card rework TBH) most of the lists had the masters in very different places. I think a lot of this comes from meta, personal preference (I know Dita is really good, but I suck playing Dita, people say Justice is mediocre, and I have a way better score with Justice than with Dita)

 

I wouldn`t think about it too much and just try to work on the skill level as its usually more important than a pick of master

[Ludvig]

If anything I think the guild is sort of a trap for newer players. There seems to be a perception floating around that guild are so straight-forward but I don't think that's true. If you just try to run your master straight at the opposition because you've been told that's what that master does you will not do well.

Then you change factions and approach something else with more knowledge of the game and an expectation of needing to use tactics and do much better. That's how bias is created.

Also note how many top-rated masters are summoners. Damned summoners! 

[Myyrä]

30 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

i believe a couple of major tournaments have been won with guild so we can't be that bad as a faction.

Like the Ropecon Malifaux tournament for the last two years. It's the largest Malifaux tournament in Finland!

[Gnomezilla]

I've played...20? games so far and that among a group full of Malifaux newbies. We're all just starting to get out of the 'see what happens when you poke the opposition with a stick' phase. No data to give that is useful to the broader discussion. I mean, yes, I've started to win during that long horrible month of being forced to switch from Hoffman to McCabe, but that's partly due to one of my opponents deciding to try out Lucius as Neverborn (side note: he hasn't been paralyzing his own crew on failed horror duels, I haven't bothered telling him otherwise, it has helped somewhat).

[LunarSol]

Guild is decidedly unpopular in the UK from what I've seen and I think that goes into things quite a bit.  There is definitely a different perspective of the faction over there, leading to things like Abuela being the only Enforcer in the Arcane Reservoir bracket (not saying any of our Enforcers would rate all that highly mind you, or that Abuela is bad, I just wouldn't rate her as the best we have to offer at all).  Guild has definitely done well in the US, but there's a question of how much of that is the relative lack of a cohesive meta and generally very few events where the best of the best compete.

I don't have time to post more at the moment, but its certainly something interesting I'd like to see discussed more.  I'll certainly try to add some more thoughts when I get a chance.

[Buntman]

In our community Guild boxes, especially Perdita one, are considered as a great beginner choice, and many like guild's wild west style. 

[EnternalVoid]

I have not liked trying to tier masters in Mark 2 because it is a lot harder then it was last edition or in other games.  It always seems that personal preferences/gripes, certain experiences, and current local metas play to much an impact on it.  Might be the number of masters/Factions, crew selection process, or the fact you can have a wide range of Strategy/Scheme set ups make it hard to really define how good any one given list is.  In the end, it seems better to just figure out how many bad match ups a Master has plus how much they offer for the various Strats and Schemes, and use that to give yourself an idea how you feel about them.

Personally I always feel Perdita is pretty good mostly because she has very few poor match ups and it is not hard to fill out what else you need with the crew. 

[sullie00]

In my personal experience, I do really well with Perdita, Criid, and McMourning. I don't play Justice too much because in my meta there is a guy who played her almost exclusively for almost a year. I LOVE the idea behind Lucius and WANT him to be awesome. With all that being said, here is what I have found in my meta.

Dita, Criid, McMourning, are all solid competitive choices. Justice and McCabe do well if you know how to use them properly. Lucius... I always lose close, but I also win close. The only time I really have a lot of success with him is when I bring a mostly mimic crew after declaring Guild. I don't know if it's just me or if he really does need a tweak, but I can't disagree with his ranking currently (as much as I want to). However, I still love to pull him out against my meta because even when I am losing with him I am making them work twice as hard as they usually have to.

[Meatpuppet]

On 22 April 2016 at 10:02 PM, LunarSol said:

Guild is decidedly unpopular in the UK from what I've seen and I think that goes into things quite a bit.  There is definitely a different perspective of the faction over there, leading to things like Abuela being the only Enforcer in the Arcane Reservoir bracket (not saying any of our Enforcers would rate all that highly mind you, or that Abuela is bad, I just wouldn't rate her as the best we have to offer at all).  Guild has definitely done well in the US, but there's a question of how much of that is the relative lack of a cohesive meta and generally very few events where the best of the best compete.

I don't have time to post more at the moment, but its certainly something interesting I'd like to see discussed more.  I'll certainly try to add some more thoughts when I get a chance.

Do we have a good UK Malifaux website where we can look up tournament results and lists people were playing? I'm considering getting into Guild and maybe representing at tournaments.

[Hagisman]

I used to do well with Lucius, but once you realize that all his models are minions and that his support models are key he falls apart. 

Is Dashel supporting the gun line? Kill Dashel. Also which models can Lucius support? Kill them and Lucius can't do anything. 

[grandpapanurgl]

where is this tier discussion?

 

[Kirby]

The thing about Malifaux master tiers is less about how "good" or "bad" they are at what they do, but it's typically based on how flexible the master is and how much of a force multiplier they can be.  A master like Leveticus is certainly strong, but a huge amount of his flexibility is in his massive hiring pool.  Summoning masters can pick and choose what they want, when they want it (resources permitting).  Ramos, despite having a very limited summoning pool, has flexibility in those spiders.  Individually they can debuff, clog up lanes, and run schemes, and then they can combine into a solid mid-strength enforcer style model - both options add more flexibility to his typically elite crew by filling in areas that lower-point models typically take up while Ramos himself also brings buffs for those elite models. Colette is the pinnacle of force multiplying, having a repeatable push  + (1) of whatever you want wherever you need it with her supreme positioning abilities.  Lilith has her own brand of flexibility, happy to bounce between damage, board control, positioning, and denial at a whim.

The point being, when you're using flexibility and force multiplying as criteria, Guild seems on the lower end.  That said, they are plenty strong at what they do and the hiring pool is definitely solid.  I don't feel Guild is at an outright disadvantage in most cases, but it can certainly feel like it sometimes.

[Myyrä]

9 minutes ago, grandpapanurgl said:

where is this tier discussion?

Click.

[Adran]

14 hours ago, Meatpuppet said:

Do we have a good UK Malifaux website where we can look up tournament results and lists people were playing? I'm considering getting into Guild and maybe representing at tournaments.

The nearest we have is the Ranking website and that typically will just have the faction played. beyond that looking at the battle reports section of this site will get you a bit of an idea, but not that many players put their lists there. (I'd recommend checking Argent Badger, who plays a lot of guild, and does good reports with Photos from all the events he plays). 

Alot of my friends can't remember what lists they used by the end of the day, because they are making it up based on the table and the strats and schemes

http://www.malifaux-rankings.com./#/

 

I would recommend playing in tournaments in the UK, its very friendly, and a great way to get 3/4 games a day against a range of different people.

 

And I really see the tiers as a very close thing. Picking your master is probably below the following things on what determines the outcome (Player Skill, Strats and schemes, picking your crew, Knowing what your crew does, knowing what your opponents crew does, table layout, Luck). 

Guild are a solid faction and can do really well. They are just a little more crew dependent than master dependent than some of the other factions, so the masters don't seem as powerful, as you can often switch your master and otherwise stick with the same crew. 

[Ludvig]

If you value all comers, fixed lists or fixed masters events the guild might have trouble. Such practices are an abomination and against the nature of the game in my opinion. In an actual malifaux tournament the guild should do fine since they can switch out masters.

[Myyrä]

2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

If you value all comers, fixed lists or fixed masters events the guild might have trouble. Such practices are an abomination and against the nature of the game in my opinion. In an actual malifaux tournament the guild should do fine since they can switch out masters.

Malifaux is balanced around the rules of Malifaux, not the rules of Calvinball.