viktorias Viks got schooled by Gremlins

[CapnBloodbeard]

Played in a tournament yesterday, and round 2 I got absolutely destroyed by gremlin....was 9-1 in the end I think.  How on earth do I handle Gremlins???

Strat: Interference

Scheme pool: Murder Protege, Alits, breakthrough, bodyguard....don't remember the others.  I took Murder and Bodyguard (Killjoy), declared Murder (Fingers was the target).  Opponent took Breakthrough (declared) and bodyguard (Fingers)

I took both Viks, Librarian, trapper, Student of Conflict, 2x Freikorpsmann, Librarian and Killjoy (buried)

He took Som'er Jones, Trixiebelle, Fingers, and a bunch of other Gremliny things.......

 

Trapper was in a good spot, but his pot shots were fairly ineffective.  Freikorpsmenn pushed up hoping for cover behind a wall, but they got picked off almost as soon at got to the wall.  The others....terrain wasn't really my friend.  Som'er summoned a few gremlins in turn one then pushed out into the open on my right turn 2.  There was some angular cover in the middle, then open terrain until the next lot of cover.  I could get my viks from cover to cover without being exposed to Som'er, so I chose to hid behind the cover and take my chances against his blast (bad choice).  Turn 3 Som'er pushed out down to the same side a bit more into the open, I tried getting Pokey Vik across, but she was ineffective .  She got killed, so I brought out Killjoy (Librarian was already dead) By the time turn 4 came around, all I had left was my trapper still trying to shoot Fingers, Student of Conflict, and Shooty Vik.  Shooty Vik ran across the left to try and engage Fingers, SoC also ran down to help out.  Killjoy moved up to kill Taelor and to claim 1VP from Bodyguard.  Turn 5, Killjoy died, Fingers was still being invincible and we wrapped it up.

 

So, basically, it took until turn 3 to kill anything, and that was Killjoy killing Taelor (who didn't matter in this game anyway).  The Squeel trigger just destroyed me, couldn't get more than 1 hit on anything, and it would just run off and heal.

 

So, given that, what on earth could I have done this game?  How do I handle gremlins?  In hindsight von Schill might have been a better choice...but really, no idea how I could have done anything effective.  I just couldn't get anything going at all.

Doesn't help that for the first 2 turns I not only didn't have anything higher than 10 in my hand, and I also didn't flip anything higher than a 10 at any useful point

[daniello_s]

Killjoy and Viks is big no-no unless you take also Nix with Infectious Melodies and Rat to deliver Killjoy in between Gremlins and Pokey would join him right after.

if you charge something with Squeel try to work out the angles and position your charging model the way that target won't be able to leave your engagement range with his push. 

Also you must focus on key models in Gremlins like Slop Hauler who hates being shot on turn 1 by well positioned Trapper.

Gremlins are quite tricky buggers to handle but nothing is beyond the reach for our Outcasts.

[CapnBloodbeard]

Wasn't a slop hauler in this game, and board was too open to block off those pushes.  Of course, a good Gremlins player will make sure he's not blocked (and this was one of the top 'fuax players in my state).  My thinking was to try and kill off Som'er, but in hindsight maybe I should have just avoided him instead.

Why are you so opposed to Killjoy?  Especially when there are kill strats, he's an insurance policy.  Allows me to get a bit reckless with viks, throw them at the model I'm trying to kill, and even if Vik dies I've still got KJ to kill the thing I need to kill.  That was the intention in this game (took him last game too, but didn't even need to bring him out, but the insurance policy completely changed how I was able to approach the target, but it just happened that the flips all went my way) Just couldn't get him out where I needed him to this game.

I was left thinking that perhaps getting fairly close and shooting would be good, because even if they push away they may still be in range....but as for Viks?  Charges are just wasted on these guys, which really limits the effectiveness of the Viks.  I could have buffed pokey vik a little harder to send her into combat to try and kill on the first hit, but that's pretty risky because it's still using multiple AP for a single strike.  And once you start flipping...well, as you know, bad things happen!!

I was thinking that perhaps I should have been focussing on blast damage.  The Strat meant that Vanessa wasn't a good option, but perhaps a Freikorps Specialist could have caused some pain (would have needed an upgrade for his mobility...I really don't like him though), and then perhaps a Convict Gunslinger.  I took Librarian for healing, but it just didn't work out that way.  In hindsight through with Vanessa, maybe I should have just sacrificed her capacity to work towards the strat and utilised her Harness the Ley Line ability anyway.  Would have given some blast capacity with a very high Ca and decent range.

Also leaves me wondering if I should have been focussing more just to try and increase the damage on that first shot.

[lusciousmccabe]

I think you should have started with more models. Most people spam cheap models and/or summoning in interference and while the viks can mow models  down real fast you still need mooks of your own to score the strategy.

Ronin I find are quite good for this, being able to deal with most other minions and disengage quite easily. Hannah is also a good option for the big engagement range, blasts and all her other stuff. 

I'd say terrain and poor cards contributed quite a bit to your defeat but I think you were in an uphill struggle from the start because of your list and matchup.

[CapnBloodbeard]

I don't have Hannah so that rules her out.  It was a tossup between Killjoy for the insurance on Murder Protege (and I thought I could get him to survive as Bodyguard), and another 2 various models.  I figured I was going to get so out activated anyway that it was virtually a lost cause with the model count, so I decided I'd work on other areas (I may potentially have scored 1 more VP, but I don't know that more models on the table would have made the difference.  Even if I chose alits, he could just push his Gremlins up to remove the markers).  It's difficult facing such massive out-activation.

With the terrain I wasn't too sure that I could get my models into range of the Protege without taking too much damage.  Strat vs Scheme on that one.  The only other models I have at my disposable where Malifaux Child, Johan, Taelor, some Ronin, Rusty Alyce, desperate merc x1, Friekorps Specialist, Vanessa, Strongarm Suit.

Ronin are only good at holding terrain - they're useless at anything offensive (Gremlins have such low df that they could be of some use, but the Gremlins were kept far back).

I only started with 4SS as well.  

had I taken von schill, I probably would have just made a bubble in the middle of the field of hard to kill, shooting at anything in sight and making heavy use of I Pay Better.  Alternatively have him augmented jump into the middle

[lusciousmccabe]

Von Schill probably would have had a better time of it alright. Maybe with the strongarm instead of Killjoy and the steam trunk hidden behind your Freikorps.

Rusty with that summoning upgrade also might have been nice, although she wouldn't have been able to outrange anything in this game. Johan is also nearly always worth taking if you want something generically good at 6 stones. He might not have shone in this game because of melee problem but he's slightly too good for his cost IMO.

[CapnBloodbeard]

If only I had the steamtrunk!  I was worried about Johan's mobility, really.

I've never taken Killjoy with von Schill.  Doesn't fit into that playstyle for me.

That and von Schill's 3AP shoot everything action would be awesome when faced with a dozen gremlins.......thematically it just suits him perfectly!!! 

 

Might have to find some match reports against Gremlins to get some ideas.

 

the only other time I've faced Gremlins was on Vassal, so I was able to take 2 trappers to make short work of the key targets.  Squeel all you like you little prick, you're still going to die!!!

[lusciousmccabe]

Ah, those trappers. 

Johan is actually fairly nippy if you give him Oathkeeper. Thirteen inches on the charge can take some people by surprise.

[daniello_s]

11 hours ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

Why are you so opposed to Killjoy?  Especially when there are kill strats, he's an insurance policy.  Allows me to get a bit reckless with viks, throw them at the model I'm trying to kill, and even if Vik dies I've still got KJ to kill the thing I need to kill.  That was the intention in this game (took him last game too, but didn't even need to bring him out, but the insurance policy completely changed how I was able to approach the target, but it just happened that the flips all went my way) Just couldn't get him out where I needed him to this game.

 

Viks benefit hugely from out activating opponent as you really want to use them as one of the last models in the turn. Killjoy costs massive points and drops number of your activations. Don't get me wrong, I like this dude. A lot.

If you really and truly want to have fun with Pokey and Killjoy then take both (Killjoy with Oathkeeper) and take also Hodgepodge Emissary. Emissary gives reactivate Trinket to Pokey who goes on suicide, sling-shot mission to kill few enemy key models, then when she is sacrificed Killjoy is unburied, burns Oathkeeper and hopefully will be able to charge twice that turn after killing first target with initial (1)AP charge

[Math Mathonwy]

Two Trappers with I Pay Better and you have the upper hand (such a broken combo). Add the Rat engine for outactivation (Obedient Wretch and maybe an additional rat or two if you want to really go overboard) and the Gremlin player needs to be a lot better than you to stand a chance, basically. Of course depending a bit on the terrain.

[MariFaux]

What was the deployment and what upgrades did you have?

 

I seem to play the Viks very differently. Hyper aggressive and fast, and I win a lot. Two of the best Viks builds in the UK are Viks (Sister in Spirit, Fury, Synchronized Slaying on Ash, Mark and Oath on Blood), Child, Taelor, Nessa, Johan, and a few more. Or Viks (Fury, Survivalist, Oath on Ash, Mark and Oath on Blood), Child, Libby, Nessa, two Trappers, and either Rusty or Hannah with Oath. always full cache.

 

These lists should handle any somer spam.

[daniello_s]

Agreed with Maria. 

Viks are design to be ultra-aggressive and wreck a havoc among enemy crew at the bottom of turn 1 or 2 latest. 

[CapnBloodbeard]

I might try to draw up a rough map of the terrain later tonight, just to give you an idea, and I'll get back to you on the upgrades tonight.

[Khyodee]

If you need more advice just wait a couple weeks and you'll get an hour or so of Vik advice.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Yeah I follow you guys on fb, excited about the Viks one  So far you guys have only hit one of my masters!  Actually, nobody ever talks about the Viks on podcasts

Game 1 of that tourney I ran the Viks more aggressively.  Against the Ortegas and there was almost entirely open ground (Ht1 soft cover fence across the middle), with some buildings in my opponent's end.  Managed to get Pokey Vik up against one building courtesy of the slingshot, shooty Vik out in the open but was ok, next turn slingshot Pokey into Perdita's face (Francisco was also close - Assassinate and Murder Protege?  Yes please!!).  With Killjoy, I figured it didn't even matter if I killed them straight up (figured it was unlikely to kill both).  Worst case scenario Vik does, KJ comes out and I land 6 points anyway.  Hilarity ensued with Papa Loco was close to Frank, I hit a natural Whirlwind trigger, blew up Papa to kill Frank and survived.

 

 Getting the distances on the Viks right can do my head in a bit...trying to think, do I want them within 6" of each other? Or trying to work out if I want to do a 1AP buff or just use that for an extra attack....

[MariFaux]

I'm pretty sure I'm just saying similar things to what John's gonna say on the Schemes'n'Stones podgast if you can understand him (even though we play the Viks quite differently) - always do Sisters in Fury. Either with the child or with Gun Vik and then (chain activate and) go wild with Sword Vik. With her pos flips and Ml7 and stones for Masks a round of 3 or 4 whirlwinds min dmg 5 ignoring everything she should kill pretty much anything. 

You either want them within 2" of each other or more than 6" apart when they're fightin' to get their (0) boni in.

[Khoregard]

Just for variety, I'll mention that when I break out the sisters I usually go with Synch/Survivalist/Spirit on Ashes and Blood takes Fury/Shezuul. I rarely go for an engagement that doesn't start with Ashes doing her (2) Action to bring in her, blood and generally Vanessa as well, whom I use Scout the Field with to get her near the centerline sooner. I've been playing with Aionus in pretty much every game as of late, and him running with a Void Wretch or two run one hell of a mean team, and for a reasonable cost.

[daniello_s]

Following Maria's comment - just be careful with the 'baits'. Many opponents will try to give you a minor target to bait you into attack instead of attacking other juicy target. 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Here's a very amateur image of how it was at the end of turn 2 roughly (maybe turn 1...).  I know it's a very sparse board, but it was a tournament, so out of my control.  Fingers had a bunch of other various Gremlins around her.  

I was playing a bit cagey with Viks because they couldn't cross the open ground nor engage with Som'er in 1 turn.  Som'er then pushed out to my right, got a shot off (I should know now, never risk grouping against a blast.  Cards hate me :P).  I chose to shoot with the Vik, didn't do much.  Ran Pokey vik in, didn't do much. I probably should have sacrificed some AP for buffing and done a single useful attack.  

Trapper was taking pot shots at Fingers, no real effect.  The 2 Freikorpsmenn pushed up to the fence (Ht 1 soft cover), but died pretty quickly.  Fingers ran up to near the trapper for some reason, and by then Pokey Vik was dead, Killjoy was on the table on my right, so I ran shooty Vik across for the scheme.

So I figure a couple of things: Needed another 2SS really.  Maybe I should have compromised on SoC.  I know people's thoughts on Killjoy, but I figured having something which (should have) almost guaranteed the 3VP from the scheme would have been more useful than another minion activation or two.

I actually think I should have completely ignored Som'er, let him drop scheme markers for Breakthrough to his heart's content, and just run the Viks up to Fingers.  That would mean running the Viks up the left hand side and leaving the right vacant.  That would then have allowed me to depend upon KJ as a backup like I intended.  Or just push Viks out into the open, try to burn SS to resist the attack and know they're in a good position if they survive - or if they don't, the KJ is deploying close to where I want him.  The third problem was that I needed to arrange my upgrades better, full buff Pokey Vik and send her in for the kill.  Even then though, between Squeel and burning SS to reduce damage, I don't feel like that could have hurt Som'er too much.

 

Upgrades....Pokey Vik had Mark of Shez'uul and Sisters in fury, Shooty Vik had survivalist, Synchronised slaying and Sisters in Spirit (same as Khoreguard).  I like the Hard to Kill of survivalist, but I maybe should have sacrificed that for Sisters in Fury and put Oathkeeper or even I Pay Better something on Pokey Vik.  I just never felt like I wanted to sacrifice the AP for getting Pokey Vik to use Fury on herself, but I'm probably just underestimating how important it was (like forgetting to focus at times :P).

[Paddywhack]

Ugh. That board is awful. That is a Warmachine or 40K board, not Malifaux.

[CapnBloodbeard]

Heh, you're not wrong.  That's the best board I actually had all day!   first one was funny, the only buildings on the table were on my opponent's side, I had viks and he had Ortegas....

It was actually a moulded board with some little hills and dips and raised sections and things, but nothing worth noting.

[Adran]

One way I look at sisters in Fury is How much damage I'm likely to do if I don't cast it, and how much I'm likely to do if I do cast it. 

 

So Against gremlins, If I don't cast it, I can probably Charge, Hit for 3 against the charge target and Whirlwind. Expect the Target to Squee out of there, and not get the second charge attack. Hopefully then Ml expert and get another whirlwind. probably doing a total of 6 Damage to most models, but not the original target. 

Casting it, walkign and using Ml expert to hit and Whirlwinding, will probably net 5 damage to every target. This kills off Bayous with fewer cards. It does make my one attack more vulnerable to the Black Joker. 

If I'm getting to make 2 attacks against a model with Fury up, then I'm looking at 10 Damage from 2 minimum hits, rather than 9 damage with 3 minimum hits.  

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Yeah true.  My Viks got stuck attacking lone targets, so Whirlwind wasn't going to be an issue.  I guess Fury is a bigger risk if I have a bad hand too.

[MR TORGUE]

I actually enjoy taking a big beater like Bishop/Ama/Ashes and Dust with the Viks. Usually the opponent cannot afford to ignore something like Ashes and Dust for fear of schemes or minion hunting so it distracts from the viks to some degree giving them the opening they want to dive into the fray later. 

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Bishop may have been a better option.  Fine, Squeel away, but I'm going to give you Slow anyway you little Green prick.......