Fetid Strumpet Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 I like how the update to schemes that put conditions on models now prevent the condition placed from being removed by abilities or actions. No more removing scheme conditions with Levi or the Dreamer Burying/ Chiaki or Johann's condition removal/ Scion of Black Blood removal. Only way to get them off now is the action the scheme itself allows and no other way I can think of. VERY much approve of that change! 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Moon Head Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Anyone else notice assasinate seems to have been modified to make Levi (and others) not an auto take of its in the pool "removed from play" helllllooooooo death marshal! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeregrineFalcon Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Fetid Strumpet said: I like how the update to schemes that put conditions on models now prevent the condition placed from being removed by abilities or actions. No more removing scheme conditions with Levi or the Dreamer Burying/ Chiaki or Johann's condition removal/ Scion of Black Blood removal. Only way to get them off now is the action the scheme itself allows and no other way I can think of. VERY much approve of that change! Yeah this is a great decision. Very happy with this change as well. A lot of thought put into these. Seems as though past experience and 2+ years of feedback from tournaments def helped clean up some of this stuff. Well done. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Personally I think Neutralize the Leader is terrible as it punishes people for playing the way Masters like Levi and Dreamer are designed to work. Going to cause hell in single Master tournaments. edit - shipping to the UK comes up as just over $3 which is pretty reasonable though it says 3-7 weeks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Moon Head Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 5 minutes ago, jonahmaul said: Personally I think Neutralize the Leader is terrible as it punishes people for playing the way Masters like Levi and Dreamer are designed to work. Going to cause hell in single Master tournaments. edit - shipping to the UK comes up as just over $3 which is pretty reasonable though it says 3-7 weeks! See I like it for that reason alone. Some masters were almost auto take if assassinate was in the pool. Fixed master tournaments could be an issue of course however usually tournies announce strat and scheme pools before hand. I've certainly been to some taht never see assasinate in the pool 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 9 minutes ago, jonahmaul said: Personally I think Neutralize the Leader is terrible as it punishes people for playing the way Masters like Levi and Dreamer are designed to work. Going to cause hell in single Master tournaments. edit - shipping to the UK comes up as just over $3 which is pretty reasonable though it says 3-7 weeks! Some master do have bad schemes. Ramos always had the same issue with Make them Suffer and you didn't see Ramos players complaining. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Most announce schemes on the day (every one I've been to has anyway though I'm going to one in March that is going to announce the schemes in advance apparently). The fact you couldn't full score Assassinate against Levi was pretty stupid but it would have been better to fix that than make up a new scheme that completely negates the way that you are supposed to play certain Masters (who's abilities etc. are factored into their gameplay design). The fact that if you're a Levi/Dreamer player and your opponent doesn't actually have to do anything to score VPs with it just seems daft. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, mythicFOX said: Some master do have bad schemes. Ramos always had the same issue with Make them Suffer and you didn't see Ramos players complaining. There's a huge difference between bad schemes and schemes that reward VPs for playing the Master the way it's designed to be played in which your opponent doesn't have to do anything to accomplish it at all. At least with Ramos swarms the enemy has to go to the effort of killing your spiders! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeregrineFalcon Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 1 minute ago, jonahmaul said: Most announce schemes on the day (every one I've been to has anyway though I'm going to one in March that is going to announce the schemes in advance apparently). The fact you couldn't full score Assassinate against Levi was pretty stupid but it would have been better to fix that than make up a new scheme that completely negates the way that you are supposed to play certain Masters (who's abilities etc. are factored into their gameplay design). The fact that if you're a Levi/Dreamer player and your opponent doesn't actually have to do anything to score VPs with it just seems daft. The beauty of this is that this is just to change things up for 2016, who knows what 2017 will bring. Its a pendulum, to give different tools and masters a new look or different look. Its healthy to "Shake Things Up" and forces all of us to re-think our game play, game style, and maybe even will get us to use models we weren't seeing a lot. This is a lightning rode of energy Wyrd has just surged into the game! 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHammer Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Welp, Yamaziko just made the cut for my 10T crews again. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chumbalaya Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 With any luck, people will ragequit Leveticus like they did Metal Gamin. It certainly made my life easier 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 I don't mind it. I'd be far more concerned about mechanics that make it harder for the opponent to get points than ones that will occasionally make it easier to get points. The only thing about the scheme that concerns me is anyone with access to a relatively easy bury mechanic could make this scheme relatively auto-take. Death Marshals, maybe Anna (nee Lizzy), Tara and her shenanigans and so on. On the face I like it, but that's my personal concern, where a scheme becomes as common as Protect Territory was/is, which this could be. Looking forward to seeing how it turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Caroland Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 15 minutes ago, jonahmaul said: edit - shipping to the UK comes up as just over $3 which is pretty reasonable though it says 3-7 weeks! I think they are just doing a CYA situation to be honest. Took them three days to get the printing done last time we tested something, and then of course shipping time. Not saying it won't take that long, just I'd be personally surprised if it did. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 It's not that bad is this scheme will not come so often like Assassinate does (it comes only if you flip 3). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Fetid Strumpet said: On the face I like it, but that's my personal concern, where a scheme becomes as common as Protect Territory was/is, which this could be. Looking forward to seeing how it turns out. Remember that Protect Territory was suited, whereas this is numbered, so that alone will make it less common than Protect Territory was/is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said: The beauty of this is that this is just to change things up for 2016, who knows what 2017 will bring. Its a pendulum, to give different tools and masters a new look or different look. Its healthy to "Shake Things Up" and forces all of us to re-think our game play, game style, and maybe even will get us to use models we weren't seeing a lot. This is a lightning rode of energy Wyrd has just surged into the game! In general I like the new schemes as it's nice to freshen things up as you say (although I'm personally not a fan of them all not being revealed) but having a scheme that completely contradicts the way a Master has been designed to play is ill thought out IMHO. If it had said 'if you reduce a Master to below half wounds' and 'if you cause a Master to leave play' then at least you'd force your opponent to do something! The way it's written means that once Levi has channelled twice your opponents goes 'surprise, thanks for the VP' at which point you're left deciding whether to continue playing him as his rules are written and intended or leave him on half wounds making it easy for your opponent to score the extra 2VP. Similarly the first time Dreamer gets to enough Waking to bring out LCB your opponent gets 2VPs as it doesn't say it has to be revealed for the 1VP before you can score the 2VP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, Nathan Caroland said: I think they are just doing a CYA situation to be honest. Took them three days to get the printing done last time we tested something, and then of course shipping time. Not saying it won't take that long, just I'd be personally surprised if it did. That was my thought. Shipping is pretty reasonable too IMHO. Not sure why it's so much more expensive to rest of the EU mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Actually I'd be astounded if Neutralize The Leader's Levi & Dreamer interactions weren't very well thought out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post solkan Posted January 22, 2016 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 1 minute ago, jonahmaul said: In general I like the new schemes as it's nice to freshen things up as you say (although I'm personally not a fan of them all not being revealed) but having a scheme that completely contradicts the way a Master has been designed to play is ill thought out IMHO. If it had said 'if you reduce a Master to below half wounds' and 'if you cause a Master to leave play' then at least you'd force your opponent to do something! The way it's written means that once Levi has channelled twice your opponents goes 'surprise, thanks for the VP' at which point you're left deciding whether to continue playing him as his rules are written and intended or leave him on half wounds making it easy for your opponent to score the extra 2VP. Similarly the first time Dreamer gets to enough Waking to bring out LCB your opponent gets 2VPs as it doesn't say it has to be revealed for the 1VP before you can score the 2VP. Consider the circumstances leading up to that: 1. You flipped for schemes, or otherwise determined what the schemes were. 2. With full knowledge of what the opponent could choose for schemes, you choose to take this master. That's not the scheme contradicting how the master is supposed to play. That's a person making a choice to use a master that potentially gives victory points to the other player. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeregrineFalcon Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 1 minute ago, jonahmaul said: In general I like the new schemes as it's nice to freshen things up as you say (although I'm personally not a fan of them all not being revealed) but having a scheme that completely contradicts the way a Master has been designed to play is ill thought out IMHO. If it had said 'if you reduce a Master to below half wounds' and 'if you cause a Master to leave play' then at least you'd force your opponent to do something! The way it's written means that once Levi has channelled twice your opponents goes 'surprise, thanks for the VP' at which point you're left deciding whether to continue playing him as his rules are written and intended or leave him on half wounds making it easy for your opponent to score the extra 2VP. Similarly the first time Dreamer gets to enough Waking to bring out LCB your opponent gets 2VPs as it doesn't say it has to be revealed for the 1VP before you can score the 2VP. Yeah I don't see this as a problem. Its like the old Murder Protege and Ashes and Dust issue. People still took A&D and people knew they could get Murder Protege on it. Same thing here people will take Neutralize the Leader against Levi. Another note, Dreamer can do just fine never burying by keeping his Waking low. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 I suspect that Neutralize the Leader will be more punishing to Levy than we are all happy with. I'm really looking forward to finding out for sure, but it seems worse to punish a Master like this than an Enforcer (like the A&D/Murder Protege thing). Levy is the only Outcast Master I own; I don't play him any more, but I can imagine a newer player feeling very hard done over this at their first tournament if they don't also own Daw or Von Schill. As for The Dreamer, I've played one game with Neutralize and I played summoning Dreamer and my opponent scored 0 points for this scheme (I won 7-5, I think), so it does affect how he plays, but this change is by no means back breaking. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 While it's nice that the new condition schemes can't be removed with abilities (the old ones said Actions, so you still couldn't remove them with Johan, etc), I'm a bit disappointed that you can still be immune to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 6 minutes ago, solkan said: Consider the circumstances leading up to that: 1. You flipped for schemes, or otherwise determined what the schemes were. 2. With full knowledge of what the opponent could choose for schemes, you choose to take this master. That's not the scheme contradicting how the master is supposed to play. That's a person making a choice to use a master that potentially gives victory points to the other player. In regular games you are absolutely right but now imagine you're playing a single Master tournament. You are now neutered from taking a strong Master which Collette, Nico, Sonnia players etc. are not. Or if you.do take Levi/Dreamer and Neutralise is available you basically give up 2-3 VPs. That is not competitive or fair at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forgotmytea Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Looking forward to trying these out! For my fellow Europeans, I just took the plunge and ordered a deck to be delivered to me in the UK. Shipping was only $3.21, not too shabby -Ben 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chumbalaya Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 The game wasn't designed for single master. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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