What information am I required to provide in declaring attacks?

[BlitzMonkey]

Title says it all.  Specifically, when I declare an action, am I required to tell my opponent if there is a Target Number involved or what the TN is?  I know I don't have to say if I met it until after the cheat fate phase.  For instance, if I am attacking with a CA attacking that has the gun icon with a cast skill of 6, Resist WP, and TN 14, do I just say "Attacking with this ability" or do I say "Attacking with this ability with CA 6, shooting, Resist WP, with a TN".  

[Artiee]

While its not in the rules, there is a statement in the Gaining Gounds 2015 under sportsmanship. "When asked, players should provide the information and statistics for models as well as any relevant additional public information. Players must be open and honest about the rules of their models."

I see the Attack as public information.   Save yourself time and aggravation.   State,  Attacking with "Name of the Attack" (I just love the some of the names,  It makes the game fun).  CA 6; TN 12; Rst WP, Gun.   If you opponent thinks you are hiding stuff, he could ask to see your card or just asking the questions.  What is the Resist, Does it have a Target Number,  does it have a ?  

Some models may have something to counter the attack type with.   Or your maybe in a models that gives you a to CA duels.

[Fetid Strumpet]

For myself it depends on the player. First of all all information save for the cards in hand and the cards in the discards piles played previously is open knowledge. The opposing player can ask any specifics about any text on your cards and they must be honestly told or shown it.

In regards to what you should generally tell the opponent, I tend to look at it as you must tell any relevant information that you, yourself would want to know about the attack if it were being used on you. Against a newer player you would probably need to tell them the attack value, the total value generated, whether there is a TN and if you are meeting it, etc. Against an experienced player I tend to just tell them what my total is, if I am meeting a TN or not, and if I currently have the ability to declare a trigger, and what it is. So for example if I use a Rotten Belle's lure on an enemy and I flip a 3 of Tomes I'd say something like "Coming at your Wp with an 11, not currently meeting the TN" If I flip an 8 of Crows I might say something like "coming at your Wp with a 16, currently triggering the trigger that forces you to discard a card if I win the duel". I don't tend to volunteer the required TN, though I might if it was meaningfully High, like Datsue-Ba requiring a 9+ on one of her attack actions, or unless it is an unopposed duel. For unopposed duels I tend to announce the number I need and the suits required before making the flip, just so I'm clear about what I needed to get before flipping.

Essentially if you feel like you need to hide some information to make the attack have a better chance to succeed, you should probably remind the opponent about it.

[RarerMonsters]

The source of my question stems from a discussion about who has the responsibility to ask/state that information.  I am of the mind that you should at least declare that there is a TN.  The other person was of the mind that it isn't their job to say if something has a TN or not until after the attack had been declared a success or not.  The reason being, I assume, is because the loser of the duel has to cheat first, even if you have not hit the target number.  

There are no rules on who is responsible for stating that information because all of that information is public at all times.

It may not be technically against the rules to withhold the information that your attack hasn't met a TN, but you couldn't withhold that information if they asked. Therefore, to purposely not share it is to build your strategy on your opponent's ignorance of your rules rather than actual play of the game.

Very poor sportsmanship, and the kind of thing that would only work on someone once.

It is best form to explain everything about your attack if your opponent hasn't seen it before, since Malifaux is a game with many many rules and attacks and people shouldn't be expected to memorize them all before a game.

Edited December 9, 2015 by RarerMonsters

[Ludvig]

I think the question is coming at it the wrong way. No one is arguing that it is against the letter of the rules (as far as I have seen). The argument is that most people consider it discorteous to knowingly withhold this kind of information. We are discussing etiquette when engaging in a sport/hobby primarily focused on having fun along with your opponent. There is no right answer.

There are no express rules governing etiquette/behavior at that detailed level. Nowhere in the rulebook is it stated that I need to wear clothes or follow the laws of the country I am currently in while playing. I am allowed to play malifaux in the nude as long as my opponent doesn't mind. If my opponent minds however I might feel a desire to put some pants on for the enjoyment of everyone. I see this discussion in very much the same way. A lot of players have reacted with disgust, resulting in name-calling on AWP. The question is not - can I do this by the letter of the rules? - but rather: Will my opponent who I am trying to have fun with consider this fun? If you are used to doing it your way with your regular opponents then by all means do.

I also feel this is getting blown grossly out of proportion - I have faced people doing it both ways and a friendly player who just doesn't declare he missed a Tn or two is still someone I would consider a friendly opponent. I have even faced players trying to go ahead with an action they missed the Tn for but reminded them because I knew what the Tn was and still considered them friendly and enjoyable opponent even if I after that asked them to double check if they met the Tn on a couple of duels where I didn't know it by heart. Half the people hating on AWP have probably had this happen against them without even knowing it.

[Adran]

Whilst I would have no problem playing the game under those conditions, I am going to spend a lot more of the game asking questions. And a lot of the time those questions will be pointless. (I would ask on every attack duel if you have a TN before I cheat, because it could make a big difference to what I do). 

I don't like losing because I wasn't aware of some public knowledge. And so if I'm playing someone that keeps that sort of Knowledge hidden, I will constantly ask about it. 

On the whole, whilst I know an awful lot of the abilities and attacks on the models, i don't know them all. and I find the game plays much quicker, when my opponent and I don't have to memorise our opponents crew before each game. 

Trap models should work even when someone knows what the trap is.

 

 

[Thana.]

People are free to agree on whatever they feel is appropriate among themselves but for myself I feel like relying on publicly available information being overlooked as a strategy just hurts your own development as a player. By hiding information you are in effect attempting to play against a worse player than the player you'd be playing against if they had the information. 

[Wellingstone]

This discussion reminds me of my least favorite game of Malifaux ever. Adepticon team tournament, round 2, won big our first round. In this game our opponents insist on reading the entire text of their abilities out loud to us Every. Single. Time. Even after we insisted we knew what their models did.

Same game where putting a scheme marker next to a lamp post spawned the question from our opponents.

“Does that lamp post count for plant evidence?” They asked.

“Of course it does, it’s terrain.” Was our response.

“So it’s going to be that kind of game.” Was their response.

[BlitzMonkey]

I dunno, games in our meta take around 90 minutes which is at or around typical tournament time. In the described environment. We find that we memorize each other's models when we are surprised by them, rather than being hand-held though what a crew does.

This mentality is kind of the issue.  Assuming it is hand-holding to announce that info is the source of the difference of opinion.  I don't view declaring the attack, in full, as hand-holding.  I would consider it hand-holding if I thought my opponent was gearing up to charge a model that can't be charged and I tell him "I wouldn't do that, you can't charge Rusty",  The two things are not the same thing fundamentally.  To some, I guess, they are, but not to me.  I personally would rather error on the side of "hand-holding" and win that way than catch someone off-guard.  Winning because of better tactics > winning because of ignorance.

[solkan]

Wow.  From the Gaining Grounds document:

0. Sportsmanship

   Malifaux is designed to be fun for all players. Players are expected to behave civilly and respectfully at all times. When asked, players should provide the information and statistics for models as well as any relevant additional public information. Players must be open and honest about the rules of their models.

Just saying.

Seems to me like the target number of opposed duel would be part of the relevant information when you're resolving a duel.

Edited December 10, 2015 by solkan

[Palmtop]

It seems in bad taste not to inform people of a TN. It is not in the rules to make them tell you if they hit the TN unless you ask so it seems if they do it or not is honestly up to them. If I find someone I play with plays this way I would end up asking about the full text of every action as I like making my moves based off tactics and knowledge and if I can not trust my opponent to give that to me of his or her own free will I will have to ask every time. Sadly this just slows the game down but if someone is firm in the fact they need to not give out those pieces of information I have no other way of knowing unless I sit and memorize every model they use.

[Spike0738]

Title says it all.  Specifically, when I declare an action, am I required to tell my opponent if there is a Target Number involved or what the TN is?  I know I don't have to say if I met it until after the cheat fate phase.  For instance, if I am attacking with a CA attacking that has the gun icon with a cast skill of 6, Resist WP, and TN 14, do I just say "Attacking with this ability" or do I say "Attacking with this ability with CA 6, shooting, Resist WP, with a TN".  

I'm not sure what the point is to hide it... If anything, a veteran player would know. So you're really only targeting an unsuspecting player and trying to gain an unfair advantage by refusing to give that kind of information up. 

I'm not 100% sure what you have to declare rules wise, but I can guarantee that if this type information was withheld during one of the Grand Tournaments in the area, you would be dinged heavily on Sportsmanship, at the very least. 

Heck, if I was the player, I'd make you sit and wait for me to find a player with the card and ask to look at it. lol

Edited December 9, 2015 by Spike0738

[RarerMonsters]

None of this information is hidden to either player, it should be declared unless both players are aware.

[Adran]

I feel its bad form if you try and hide the public information.

Whilst I won't always say what my stat is, or if there is a TN, (it gets very repetative doing that every action) I will always say if I've not meet the TN before my opponent cheats. Especially when they pre-empt me and cheat to a level below the TN. 

As a bare minimum they need to know what your action is, and what they are resisting on. And they will need to know your total of Card +stat. You don't have to tell them what the stat is, but its not hard for them to work out, or just ask. 

 

[RobertSirc]

Title says it all.  Specifically, when I declare an action, am I required to tell my opponent if there is a Target Number involved or what the TN is?  I know I don't have to say if I met it until after the cheat fate phase.  For instance, if I am attacking with a CA attacking that has the gun icon with a cast skill of 6, Resist WP, and TN 14, do I just say "Attacking with this ability" or do I say "Attacking with this ability with CA 6, shooting, Resist WP, with a TN".  

I would say the type, the resist and if there is a TN. So "SH 5 / DF / TN 10" should be all you need to say. Most players might know what you are attacking with but if it is a newer player give them the courtesy of spelling it out for them. If they are falling in to asshat territory, then move them over to "Attacking with <Named Attack>".

[valhallan42nd]

If asked if there is a TN or suit requirement at any time, say so. If not, then mention the TN or suit requirement at the correct time (ie, after the action fails due to tn/suit requirement).

[BlitzMonkey]

The source of my question stems from a discussion about who has the responsibility to ask/state that information.  I am of the mind that you should at least declare that there is a TN.  The other person was of the mind that it isn't their job to say if something has a TN or not until after the attack had been declared a success or not.  The reason being, I assume, is because the loser of the duel has to cheat first, even if you have not hit the target number.  

[BlitzMonkey]

My thought process is to just say that there is a TN from the get go.  It would get rather tedious to ask every attack.  Thanks!

[Inquisitor Wall]

My thought is to simply state the TN, and any required suits right from the start.  It keeps the pace of the game, and since that is all public knowledge it keeps from issues that may arise.  As an opponent, I should take some responsibility to make sure my opponent is informed of public knowledge.  I would much prefer a win from out playing, lucky flips than by being deceptive, or having my opponent feel cheated.. 

[MrDeathTrout]

I usually just say <Model X> is declaring <Attack Name> on <Model Y> its resisted by <Stat>.  If they have any questions I answer them or give them the card to read over.  If its a newer player or something they would obviously want to know I'll usually spell that out as well.  E.g. "This is a Ca action so it will not be reduced by your Incorporeal."

[MrDeathTrout]

Along similar lines one of our local players will answer questions honestly, but will not volunteer any additional information. Here are a couple of examples.

Example 1

Q) What is the walk on the model?  (I think they asked how far can that model move, but I don't remember for sure so I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.)

A) His walk is 5.  Does not mention that the model also has Leap, and an upgrade that can be discarded for Fast.  

Example 2

The opponent targets their model with an attack.  They go through the duel as normal, the opponent cheats in a card to make sure the attack hits.  Once the duel is finished they tell their opponent they are immune to the effect of the attack.  I know they were aware of the immunity before the opponent declared the attack.

I consider this very poor sportsmanship.  Am I being too harsh, or is this how the game is typically played or should be played?  Is it different in a tournament vs. casual play?

Edited December 9, 2015 by MrDeathTrout

[lusciousmccabe]

I would consider that poor sportsmanship, particularly the part about immunities. It's basic courtesy to provide your opponent with any information you think is relevant when they're deciding an action. Doesn't matter what the level of play is as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

[solkan]

It's questions like this which make me wish that the models just came with two sets of cards, and at the beginning of the game everyone just gave the other player a copy of the cards for reference during the game.  

 

[Artiee]

That's what I like about WarRoom for Warmachine.   I would build their list in WarRoom and have all the access to the cards as needed.  

[lusciousmccabe]

Nowhere in the rulebook is it stated that I need to wear clothes or follow the laws of the country I am currently in while playing.

I believe that's in gaining grounds. 

[Ludvig]

Nowhere in the rulebook is it stated that I need to wear clothes or follow the laws of the country I am currently in while playing.

I believe that's in gaining grounds. 

I was including gaining grounds and I can't find any paragraph mentioning exactly what attire is required. It says you need to bring rulebooks, official stat cards and official models but does not spell out needing to be clothed. It's almost as if they just assume you can follow these social contracts anyway.

In gaining grounds it is spelled out that "When asked, players should provide the information and statistics for models as well as any relevant additional public information." That means you strictly aren't obligated to spell out that you haven't met the Tn unless your opponent asks you to describe the attack or asks you a direct question of a similar nature. Who is winning the duel? - I am currently winning the duel, even if the action will automatically fail after that. On that direct question I would however consider the associated Tn to be "any relevant additional public information" but that is only after your opponent asks you a question if you go by the letter of the rules. As I tried to argue previously, social contracts often involve an awful lot of stuff not explicitly spelled out.