How does the Dreamer lose?

[Detharious]

I've gotten into malifaux and picked up the dreamer. My local meta has a couple of other guys and we've been playing together. We've noticed something however, no matter what they seem to throw at me dreamer just decimates them. I've even managed to table one of them on turn 2. (Close deployment was involved). We've tried different point levels but, it doesn't seem to help. Instead it gets worse since the dreamer can bring even more to the table. I've run primarily the NON-summoning specialized version and only the summoning version once (Which made me feel bad).

So- rather than give up I was wondering. What do you guys do to BEAT the dreamer? What point levels do you commonly play against the dreamer?

My only thoughts on his weaknesses is beating him on scenario but, other than that he doesn't have a glaring weakness (I guess Ca actions on him can hurt him but, I can always get lucky/cheat it in)

[Tawg]

I don't have terribly much experience against Dreamer, but I can say on the forums, I have never heard "Oh great, Dreamer!"  That's reserved mostly for "What he hell can't Leveticus do?!" type exclamations

 

But some Masters you play against, you play differently against.  Like Brewmaster.  You don't approach him like you do normal masters, you have to plan on being stuck drinking if you go near him, so you can't just throw a strong beater up in his face and expect to pound him (Some can, maybe).  And I know some crews have poor match ups, so it might just depend on what your group has against him?  There are quite a few factors.

But I'm sure someone with an "anti-dreamer" tactical knowledge will be around soon enough to tell you how best to get crushed

By the way, if your friends continue to experience defeat, or are losing to Dreamer too often, switch sides.  Before the game starts, just trade Crews, since you are more experienced with Dreamer, you'll understand what his crew can be doing to try and stop your abilities you know need to happen.  And if it can't be solved that way, then perhaps it actually is just bad match ups.  Or not quite understanding the game.  Because heaven knows Malifaux isn't a game about straight killing everything your opponents have, so perhaps they just need to learn to focus on the things that actually gain them VP, rather than trying to smash face?

[Breng77]

Dreamer hates blasts, he also hates being attacked in general.  But also playing the strategy helps.  

[Kadeton]

The most brutal result I've had against the Dreamer was using the Viktorias. Dreamer surrounded himself with Nightmares, and the Viktorias killed all of them, and the Dreamer, with a Dragon's Bite at the top of turn 3.

Anti-Dreamer tactics are largely going to depend on the Masters (and other models) your opponents have available. In general, though, he's not fond of damage via blasts and pulses, attacks which prevent Df triggers, actions which separate him from his imaginary friends, abilities that remove suits, attacks which can target Buried models, and Ca attacks in general. Chompy really hates getting Paralyzed.

Dreamer (especially with Dreams of Pain) gets stronger the smaller the game - he (and everyone else) is balanced for 50ss games. He will also feel somewhat unbalanced if you're just trying to kill each other's crews (like any summoner), so proper Strategy + Scheme pools are a must.

[D_acolyte]

He looses when the play looses sight of the objective. The enemy should keep there eyes on there objective in order to win. Also if they have ways of messing with his card flips or those in his hand he will not like that. Next goes into targeting priority, such as killing a new summoned model and limiting what the Dreamer has to play with, trappers and other snipers are good at that also Talor with Welcome to Malifaux. Next is to spread your forces and work at making your enemy devide their forces out of his heal bubble. Finally, for heaven sake if you are going after a big model such as a teddy, go all in do not rely on nickel and diming it; I love playing the Dreamer as a summoner and the biggest problems I have with other players and there lack of victory is that they think 2 or 3 points on a model will matter to the Dreamer, ha it might as well been nothing most times.

[Ludvig]

I have fared well with Sonnia against Dreamer a couple of times. Attack the little brat himself so you get a plus to the attack. He pushes it to a friendly nightmare but you hit severe anyway (because of Loco in a box and/or ca 9) and blast right back at him for 3 damage. Repeat this with three attacks so the dreamer has wasted three cards and suffered 9 damage that needs to be prevented with soulstones. If he is unlucky with preventing he might be dead after two attacks. He is often out of nightmares to push attacks off too after one or two attacks so dies unless he red jokers the prevent.

This can be somewhat negated with a Teddy-Nanny so Sonnia can't cheat for blasts.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Ludvig

[Nical]

Simply, use Multiple  /  /  to kill dreamer. And I think Crew Swap can be helpful to you.

 

[Justin]

Point level is a big one. The game is designed at 50ss, below that summoners have an advantage.

[Thana.]

If you are comfortable playing on Vassal I'd be happy to play against your Dreamer. He's my most played master and so I'm pretty good playing against him as well. 

All the previous advice is good but I know for myself it's a lot easier to learn a strategy by actually watching it play out than by just reading some tips. 

[Hungering Derpness]

I can recommend one mercenary model that can give The Dreamer significant pause for thought - Taelor.

 

Her "Welcome to Malifaux" ability means that if something gets summoned within charging distance, she can immediately run over and whack it with her hammer. It's not just any hammer she has, its a Relic Hammer. Relic Hammers (in the lore) were specifically made to deal with Tyrants; guess what Lord Chompy Bits is?

[Ludvig]

I can recommend one mercenary model that can give The Dreamer significant pause for thought - Taelor.

 

Her "Welcome to Malifaux" ability means that if something gets summoned within charging distance, she can immediately run over and whack it with her hammer. It's not just any hammer she has, its a Relic Hammer. Relic Hammers (in the lore) were specifically made to deal with Tyrants; guess what Lord Chompy Bits is?

It isn't all that hard to block that charge. If memory serves it can be made while engaged but still isn't allowed to move through any models so any old model can just stand in her way before you start summoning.

[Rurouni Benshin]

As a Ten Thunders player, I bring Mei Feng everytime I suspect I'm facing the Dreamer.  She has a couple of staple upgrades that I take with her, 1 that gives her Ca 7 attack and an auto-suited Burning trigger (Vapormancy), and an upgrade that gives her a Df trigger that allows any attack to be redirected on another model within 2" that doesn't include the attacker (Misdirection).  She's immune to Paralysis and Slow, which negates a few of the tricks that Dreamer is known for as well.

And more recently, since it's release, the Shadow Emissary has probably the faction's most powerful Ca attack.  It can gain Focus +2 at the cost of discarding one card, and boasts a 2/3/6 damage track.  In my previous game against the Dreamer, he had summoned 2 Insidious Madnesses on Turn 1.  We were playing Reconnoiter, and he had chosen Breakthrough and Entourage as his schemes.  He was able to earn full VP for both of them, but b/c I was able to kill off both Insidious Madnesses on 2 consecutive turns, he never earned a VP for the strategy because I was able to negate his control of at least 3 of the table quarters (I ended up winning 10-6 because of it).  I'm pretty sure that he purposely kept his Dreamer away from the Emissary as long as he could until it died on Turn 4.  The Emissary was single handedly responsible for killing 2 Insidious Madnesses and Lord Chompy Bits in that game, and for bringing his Hooded Rider down about half it's wounds.

So with that all said, look out for strong Ca attacks, as well as blasts, auras, and pulses.  Conditional damage (Burning, Poison) is as just debilitating as well, since Incorporeal doesn't ignore any of that.

[Tuttleboy]

Dreamer looses when I play him.

 

Quite honestly once your group finds out how vulnerable the kid is to Ca actions you'll start having problems, especially once they get rid of anything you can shrug the damage off to or they drain you hand of cards so you can't shrug off the damage.

[Rurouni Benshin]

Also, keep an eye out for Guild players.  Just about half of their Masters would give Dreamer a good run for his money.

 

[psychogeek]

ad executioners...... no defensive triggers.... tubby eats him for lunch

[Guslado]

What faction are you playing as? That greatly affects which tools you have in your arsenal to take him down.

The general technique I go for against summoners is to pressure the summoner early before they can bring too many extra friends to the party. Play your schemes and the strategy while doing what you can to hamper/execute the summoner. To kill off the Dreamer, you need to isolate him or deny him his Df triggers. 

[Astrella]

What do your friends run? What do they find hard to counter about the Dreamer?

[Mr Janje]

I can happily say, that last time I played dreamer, he DID NOT like Pandora getting within 3" of him turn one

Sure, he has WP 7, but all the dudes he summoned did not, and I was able to just Inflict their 1 wound away, or Fears Given Form them


Pandora.... Spoiler of Fun....

[santaclaws01]

I can happily say, that last time I played dreamer, he DID NOT like Pandora getting within 3" of him turn one

Sure, he has WP 7, but all the dudes he summoned did not, and I was able to just Inflict their 1 wound away, or Fears Given Form them


Pandora.... Spoiler of Fun....

The better question is why didn't he take Otherwordly and/or summon them outside of Inflict range? Or just wait for Pandora to activate.

[the proxy union]

he dies to repeated attacks. you just keep shooting until he doesn't have things to shunt attacks onto. if you can kill or push away the summons before shooting him, it makes your day easier. chompy dreamer lists will generally have actual scheme runners in there to get VPs so using snipers to pop a daydream/alp summon and a scheme runner early is ideal. this gives the dreamer less extra lives and the damaged scheme runner is easier to take down turn two. also, when the dreamer starts to run out of extra lives he needs to replenish them which costs ap he could have used to do something else.

summoning dreamer is simmilar but the rest of the starting crew is usually a bunch of high cost models and maybe a tot to fill points since you are likely to summon another 25-50 points if left unmolested. (1-2 6 or 7 ss cot things per turn) dreamer will usually activate early and summon 3 things or walk and summon 2-3 models depending on hands. the secon option is actually more deadly as it lets the dreamer summon upfield and behind cover or LOS blocking terrain.

the solution is basically the same but casts and willpower based attacks are at an even higher premium since the df/wp trigger is not built in on wp. also his new friends are significantly more dangerous.

 

tl;dr

shoot and cast at him with and nearby nightmares until he cant transfer, then hit him in the face. keep swinging until dead. casts and blasts all day.

 

-proxy

[Detharious]

What do your friends run? What do they find hard to counter about the Dreamer?

Arcanists/Ten Thunders/Neverborn/Ressurectionists

Key masters I play against would be: Seamus, Mei Fung, Nicodem, Pandora, Lilith.

The thing they have the biggest problem is just how fast I out activate them and tear into their list.

We play at 50 Points and I bring:

1x Dreamer (+ Wings of Darkness, +Dreams of Pain)

2x Daydream

2x Stitched Together

1x Widow Weaver

1x Doppleganger

2x Insidious Madness

+3 Stones (or whatever is left).

....So he is the issue where we feel the game just gets broken. From the get go I usually am using my soulstones to do my redraw at the start of each turn to fix my hand for better cards. I'm utilizing my stitched and widow waver to straight up obliterate anything that walks too close to allows the stitch to start gambling onto. I almost never make a move action with the Dreamer. Instead I'm summoning in the twins, a coppelius, alps, insidious madness, Stitched Together, etc. and then sending them in. The worst time was when I managed to get both twins in on turn 1 with "It is my dream now" triggers which brought them up to nearly full. 

If my friends try to run for the objectives I slaughter the model that tries to do so or pressure them so badly that I remove any potential points from them. From turn 1 I'm getting on average 3+ additional actions over them and it just gets worse from there. I've consistently nearly tabled my opponent on turn 3. We have tried them running big tanky models as well as tried to swarm me. Neither seem to help them. They can't press for scenario as I on average force them to play defensively or push them far out of the middle of the table where there isn't even the slightest chance they'll attack the dreamer. The one time they did get close enough to him he ended up in Lord Chompy Bits form and ate the model that managed to get close enough.

Widow Weaver along with constant Horror Duels, Paralyzes, Slows, and Insidious Madness drain my opponent's hands while mine remain very fresh. The already big activation difference gets worse as soon as I start to get very easy slows/paralyzes on their non-activated models and in some cases, activating the model ends up killing it (sometimes giving me another alp even). 

Blast Templates don't help them, Sure it hits like a truck but, most things I keep far enough away from eachother that it doesn't really hurt them. The best case scenario they've had is they used a blast to wipe out 2 daydreams and 3 alps. Which prompted me to resummon them next turn. There are several more issues we've been having where it just seems like Dreamer's crew isn't balanced. A point someone made was the fact that every other summoner in Mailfaux uses markers to summon while the Dreamer doesn't and the Dreamer even has ways of making sure he consistently succeeds with his daydream's lucid dream.

TL;DR-

Constant Summoning

Dreamer can't be touched when he is kept in the back pumping out high cost minions

Ability to Drain Cards/Refill his hand leaves my opponent empty and mine nearly full

Activation Difference is grossly skewed- from turn 1 on only to get worse and worse with summons/paralyzes/slows

I can press Scenario way too well by effectively swarming activations and destroying his key models

I can either heal or resummon any model I want to keep on the board as they can't ever reach the Dreamer

[Kadeton]

I find it strange that you're able to apparently apply so much pressure. You do have the advantage that none of your regular opponents has much ranged damage to speak of (Seamus' gun notwithstanding) but the summon-factory is so static. While you're pumping out summons, your opponent can move up their whole crew - far more than you should be able to "slaughter", and killing anything you send out to stop them - onto all the objectives. As your Slow low-health summons enter play, they should be able to easily pick them off as needed. By keeping the Dreamer back, you're giving the opposing Master free reign - models like the Widow Weaver are powerful, but when confronted by someone like Lilith or Mei Feng they'll just fold like a wet paper bag.

When facing the Resurrectionist Masters, how do you deal with Belles? At the least, they'll pull models out of your healing aura (leaving your new summons on one wound, easily dealt with) and strip cards from your hand. If you can't afford the Masks or stones to pass off the Lure effect to nearby Nightmares, they'll simply pull the Dreamer out of his bunker into the middle of the enemy crew, where he'll be very quickly killed. I've always seen Nicodem as one of the Dreamer's hardest matchups - Nico's summons come in stronger, he's got plenty of ways to hurt the opponent's hand and enhance his own, and Belles can easily negate the Dreamer's crew synergy and protective abilities.

[Swiglitz]

To echo Kadeton's comments, how are your summons able to hold their own against your opponents fresh models? If you're summoning 2-3 models at a time you must be burning through cards at quite a rate, or just getting very, very lucky.

When your summons come in on one wound and slow how do you keep them alive? I'd love to see some of your opponents lists, with big hitters like Lilith and Mei Feng facing off against you, and (arguably) a more powerful summoner too I know I'd struggle to counter everything an opponent can throw against me, and score the strat, and my schemes.

Are your opponents targeting the weaker models (daydreams, alps, fresh summons etc) with their blast attacks? If you're summoning them in close to the Dreamer to get his healing it shouldn't be too difficult to clip Dreamer with a blast marker, if you're summoning them far away, they're not getting the benefit of his healing aura and and should fall over pretty quick.

The twins notwithstanding the Dreamer suffers from an over abundance of damaged models after summoning. There's tons of healing available but if your doing that, it's activation's used up and used on scoring and bunching up models.

Perhaps take up a couple of offers of a vassal game from some of the folks here and see what folks do to counter you?

[Astrella]

Could you also give some examples of lists they run? I feel that with Belles for the Ressers on one end and Neverborn movement shenanigans they should be able to at least pick off some of your fresh summons.

[Thana.]

When facing the Resurrectionist Masters, how do you deal with Belles? At the least, they'll pull models out of your healing aura (leaving your new summons on one wound, easily dealt with) and strip cards from your hand. If you can't afford the Masks or stones to pass off the Lure effect to nearby Nightmares, they'll simply pull the Dreamer out of his bunker into the middle of the enemy crew, where he'll be very quickly killed. I've always seen Nicodem as one of the Dreamer's hardest matchups - Nico's summons come in stronger, he's got plenty of ways to hurt the opponent's hand and enhance his own, and Belles can easily negate the Dreamer's crew synergy and protective abilities.

Purely in the interest of helping Dreamer players out:

The way you deal with models being on 1 wound is by either chain activating into them, stitches or summoning them out of los. The way you deal with belles is to keep Dreamer behind terrain or else behind a model that is directly between the Dreamer and the belle so that the belle has to take 1 action to move into los of the Dreamer and can only lure him once. If the belle succeeds and you have a low mask you can pawn the lure off on something else. If you don't then you can lure him right back with lilitu. This works when facing a belle or two. Massed belles is a different beast. 

I think Nicodem is not one of Dreamer's hardest matchups he's about par for the course. While all that you say about Nico's summons coming in stronger and Nico having better card control are true the Dreamer has a couple of things in his favour as well. Stitched togethers are at their very best vs ressers and noone runs them better than the Dreamer. Nico crews tend to have enough wp4 and 5 minions/enforcers that it's easier than usual to paralyze models with moderate to high crows from twist reality. 

Dreamer isn't autowin, but neither does he struggle just because your opponent can summon or lure. 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Thana.