Are Trixie/Francois/SlopHaulers AutoIncludes?

[Whut]

Hey, never played Gremlins before but I just bought about 350 dollars worth (I don't have a problem I swear)

I understand that this won't ALWAYS apply, but I hear that the three mentioned above are basically AutoIncludes in almost every list. If you take 2 Haulers then this becomes a 25 point block. Add in Master upgrades and other AutoIncludes that are master specific (Lenny for Ophelia, Totems...) and you have what? Around 15 points of actual choice? I'm a little afraid that all my lists will end up being the same cookie cutter with masters swapped out (not always, but you see what I mean probably)

Also, what do people take that can actually take a hit? Gracie (or Waldgeists for Zoradia) seems like a go-to, but again I don't really want the same models in my list always.

Any advice?

[Trample]

I wouldn't say that. Francois doesn't always make it in when I'm running Wong or the Brewmaster. I almost always have one slop hauler in there, but rarely two. I haven't been using Trixie at all, but only because I like to have the correct model. I'm very excited about her arrival! 

[Tiny]

Wouldn't say auto includes either, my ophelia doesnt take trixie, zoraida doesnt take slop haulers, wong no francois, depends on the crew/master etc. They are strong models but not auto includes

[Omenbringer]

I wouldn't take 2 Slop Haulers, but it is difficult to justify not putting at least one in most Som'er lists.

[zFiend]

I think Francois is pretty autoinclude. At least around here everyone has him, always in the lists same with a Slop Hauler. 

[Druso]

I actually always run one Slop Hauler. I have never ran two but might be a good idea with some Sommer crews. The Slops are a must, since a lot of damage-dealing in Gremlins is wound-cost you will need someone to heal your guys, and that ones do it in area!. 

 

Trixie is an amazing model, you have a doppel that can lure away the non-gremlin/lure gremlins, put poison and also scheme markers shenanigans. With Sommer you dont really need her so much since you have your strengh in cuantity instead of cuality but with Ophelia,Wong or Brew, who can spread a lot of damage in one chain activation ( Ophelia-Fran, Wong-someone else or Lovely Assistant-someone else... just bring the Glowly guy and Brew-Fran).

 

 

So we get to Fran. A 7ss henchman who is by far one of the better hitters in Gremlins. You can put Stilts and Dirty Cheater on him so you can have a 9ss that is still really good...to much good. If you go for a Sommer summon factory you would not need him but is always a good idea...just is not a must. But with other masters, as Ophelia, Wong or Brewmaster is a totally badass.

 

Why? Well with Ophelia you can have a chain activation with your master, and delete someone you want to (remember bringing Trixie to win iniciative flips) you can also have movement tricks with de Lacroix, something i call the catapult, bringing him with Ophelia to the front of the battle. With Wong Fran will gain Glowly and become "God in the Earth" I managed to killed a Teddy with 1 Ap and in the next turn I killed Lelu with 1 Ap and then charge a Teddy and killed him. You will also not be hurt by reckless because you will gain Regeneration. With Brewmaster you just activate Brew and give Hangover to someone you want dead, then activate Fran as chain activation.

 

I love Gracie, its a taxi and also a hybrid between a tank and a damage-dealer.You can reactivate her (and then you can easily heal her with a Slop Hauler). I like to run her with Burt and Wong because i love their fluff. I havent any game experience with Waldgeist with Zoraida yet but I think that two of them are a great idea with the witch.

[Adran]

Try them out.

You might use them in a lot of your crews, but as you said, taking that block every time will mean you are missing out on almost all the other options.

 

It is possible to build a Gremlin crew that doesn't kill itself. (Apparently? Although no one is sure why, everyone loves killing Gremlins, even Gremlins!) and so then it doesn't need the healing from the slops. Brewmaster is probably a good example of this.

Although saying that, Slop haulers can offer more than just the healing.

 

They are only auto includes if you make them auto includes. That trio are each good at one thing, and don't need the other two to do their thing, so only bringing one of them isn't going to impact that ability of the one you do bring.

[Math Mathonwy]

They are each best models in the game at what they do. But McTavish is an utter beast, Fingers is crazy good at what he does and Mancha Roja - oh boy!

Francois is ultra killy. But Mancha Roja is almost as killy and way, way tougher with the possibility of Cg 12(!!) and actually useful (0)Action. Is that worth three SS more over Francois?

So yeah, amazing, amazing models. But Gremlins have other amazing choices as well. Don't worry, we're the Faction packed with all sorts of awesome.

And as a trivial example, Ulix won't be taking 25SS worth of non-Pigs.

[szendroib]

I usually play Somer with enforcers and henchmans handing them the necessary triggers in huge areas. Therefore I always bring a slop hauler to mitigate dumb lucks, I might even need 2 sometimes but never took both yet.

 

Trixie is an auto include for me, but not because the initiative cheat. My favorite ability of hers is the lure/push, since my crew doesn't like being into melee she single handedly can keep 1-2 melee enemies out of charge distance or push the enemy from objectives. If I remember right with the right triggers she can melee hit 6 times in a turn (or 3 times her and 3 times other melee like francois). She also has the gun upgrade and with Somer you can guarantee a ++on the dmg flip since all your team is using the ram trigger.

 

The real auto include for me is Burt however. He is the most badass gremlin ever. He can shoot alright but his real power is his melee with the critical trigger. If you provide him with rams he can get really silly. With Somer, the 2 totems, Lenny and a ram flip he can get +6 damage and dont suffer any extra damage likein case of dumb luck. It is a really corner case but I usually can get +3 damage with him. Also if you provide him with the ram trigger he is a defensive powerhouse. If you know you can defend against the hit let the enemy shoot him, defend it and shoot back -> profit . If you can't defend him give the target to Gracie. Really awesome. Too bad that Gracie usually doesn't do anything in my games, she is too slow by default and if I reactivate her she becomes a huge target with 6 hp (I usually play against big hitters or armor ignoring pieces ). So I'm still unsure about gracie.

 

I see that everyone here likes Francois. Can I get some advice about him? I start to get a hang for how to play him but still unsure. In my team he usually just eats up my SS-es and goes down. At first I played him as a shooter like everyony else in the Kin, it didn't go too well for him, his 4 def went only so far (also 4 def is a huge target for a double blast you can't prevent). Since than I tried him in melee and he fared much better, but still after I charge in and hit 1-2 huge ones he goes down immediately. Could you guys give me some advice how to use him better? Also Lenny, he seems like a huge resource drain and nothing else. He is HT3 he can't hide anywhere and goes down really fast against 3 min dmg models or snipers .

[zFiend]

You pay 7ss + stilts for him. You kill all the 12 or SS models in the game instantly. You kill henchmen, masters some you outright oneshot.

You lose 8ss,your opponent loses a whole lot more.

[szendroib]

Ah the power of math

[Math Mathonwy]

I see that everyone here likes Francois. Can I get some advice about him? I start to get a hang for how to play him but still unsure. In my team he usually just eats up my SS-es and goes down. At first I played him as a shooter like everyony else in the Kin, it didn't go too well for him, his 4 def went only so far (also 4 def is a huge target for a double blast you can't prevent). Since than I tried him in melee and he fared much better, but still after I charge in and hit 1-2 huge ones he goes down immediately. Could you guys give me some advice how to use him better?

Against blasts, use SS to get positives to defense flip and negatives to the opposing damage flip. Helps immensely.

Stilts are pretty much autotake for him. Note that they can be used to mitigate Dumb Luck damage as well. But yeah, he tends to die - the trick is to take enough opposing models down so that he is worth it. Also, don't use Dumb Luck if it isn't needed - in other words, count the number of wounds you need to inflict and use it appropriately.

Trixie (or Zoraida, or a Piglet) can haul him back for healing, which can be useful.

He also makes for a nasty Scheme runner. He is the same cost as a Silurid, about as fast and indescribably more killy while also being more resilient.

Finally, with Somer (or a Skeeter) giving him Crows his shooting is rather hilarious.

Also Lenny, he seems like a huge resource drain and nothing else. He is HT3 he can't hide anywhere and goes down really fast against 3 min dmg models or snipers .

He is more of a backline style fellow. His Auras are extremely potent and he can add a tremendous amount of mobility but he does tend to go down if you aren't careful. Also, with Zoraida Nurses can heal him nicely.

[zFiend]

Lenny I'd amazing! My favourite model of the entire faction!

Edit: is. Seriously losing my mind with this mobile version. Autocorrect with white text on white background is a disaster.

[szendroib]

Against blasts, use SS to get positives to defense flip and negatives to the opposing damage flip. Helps immensely.

 

Ah this makes so much sense . Thank you for the tips they will help a lot. Now I'll only need to keep raphael away from blasting enemies not both of them . Stilts is a great idea aswell.

[Vidd]

I'm starting to believe that two Slop Haulers are too many, outside of Somer summoning lists where they're necessary to make Git Yet Bro truly useful. Apart from that particular case, it feels to me that they slow down the crew a bit too much since they're not very mobile when it brcomes time to heal. Sometimes it's like they lag behind unless they use Reckless to triple walk and make up for Wk4.

Don't get me wrong, they are awesome but as more kits arrive I think they're going to move further away from an auto-include for me.

As for Francois, he's neat and there's a nice synergy between his trigger and Stilts but when it comes to anything involving Willpower or Defense, he just crumbles. He's almost a bit too all-or-nothing for me. I'm looking forward to more Henchmen being available because I'm generally quite reluctant to include him over something a bit more durable and less prone to Wp shenanigans. Stilts comes with a couple of downsides as well for him since things like Toss no longer consider him a valid target.

I can't comment on Trixie since she hasn't made it yet from Gencon to me.

[szendroib]

Francois isn't in front of me but he has WP 7 hasn't he? (not windows phone)

[Bengt]

Francois isn't in front of me but he has WP 7 hasn't he? (not windows phone)

He does.

[Vidd]

Well excuse the brain fart, you are indeed correct.

I guess it's just the Def 4 that really gets me down about him. Perhaps time to throw him into more lists?

Thanks, guys.

[Clement]

Don't get me wrong, I love Francois with stilts.  But almost every game I run him I have a moment of "Damnit, if only he weren't Ht2!"

[Omenbringer]

I'm starting to believe that two Slop Haulers are too many, outside of Somer summoning lists where they're necessary to make Git Yet Bro truly useful. Apart from that particular case, it feels to me that they slow down the crew a bit too much since they're not very mobile when it brcomes time to heal. Sometimes it's like they lag behind unless they use Reckless to triple walk and make up for Wk4.

Som'er doesn't need 2 Slop Haulers to make Get Your Bro useful. One is more than capable of keeping it going indefinitely. If you find they are slowing down the crew, well perhaps you should take a look at the "Truffle Shuffle" and "Pig Ladders" tactics. Manueverability and speed are virtual givens in a gremlin list, if any of your models are slowing down the crew, a Piglet tender will typically remedy the situation.

[szendroib]

Don't get me wrong, I love Francois with stilts.  But almost every game I run him I have a moment of "Damnit, if only he weren't Ht2!"

 

How come? One of the things I realised rather quickly is how useless HT1 is.

 

- you can be devoured, big minus even if it only happens occasionally

- most enemies are ht 2 or higher: if you hide behind a ht1 wall every ht2 model can see you because they can ignore terrains lower than the taller of the 2 figures when calculating line of sight (cover counts the same way as for ht2 models). So ht1 cover only blocks line of sight if you play against other ht1 models. However if you have a lot of friendly ht1 models and a wall between them you can't use your support abilities on your teammates because you can't see them. So being ht 1 or 2 is the same against 90% of the game's models and even hinders your friendly los. If you hide behind a ht2 wall against a ht2 enemy it is the same if you are ht 1 or 2. So in my opinion ht 2 >>> ht 1. And ht3 is the worst because you can't hide anywhere most of the time .

 

Do I miss something? Is being ht1 a good  thing and not a hindrance?

[Adran]

Look at Lenny and the Pigapult to see some possible advantages to Ht 1

[Math Mathonwy]

Do I miss something? Is being ht1 a good  thing and not a hindrance?

Lenny and Pigapult can toss Ht 1 models and Ophelia can make others ignore Ht 1 models when shooting into engagement.

[szendroib]

Yeah I realised some of these after I wrote it's just I do not use Ophelia or Lenny too much and do not own the pigapult yet .

[CannibalBob]

I understand that this won't ALWAYS apply, but I hear that the three mentioned above are basically AutoIncludes in almost every list. I

 

Those are all very good models.  However, I think part of the problem in regards to them being so prevalent in many lists and discussions that you may see out there has to do with how limited the Gremlin model range is.  While gremlins have just as many options as the other factions when you look in the books, they are the faction that is most effected by the current state of releases.  Gremlins were once a sub-faction within Outcasts with only 2 masters and they were spun off into their own faction in 2nd edition.  For various reasons Gremlins ended up being the faction that was furthest behind in physical releases.

 

Trixie is a new release and so I think some of current excitement about her is the new-shiny thing.  She is a great model, but I think that as we have time to play with the various crews and models as they make it to general release we will see the discussion broaden.