Are the Vicky's Weak?

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

As the title says; Are the Vicky's Weak? When compared to similar masters they seem to be lacking something.

Best examples I can think of are Lilith, Dreamer, Jacob Lynch. 

 

Lilith is similar in that she is fast, hard hitting, low on wounds. But, her and her crew are one of the strongest in the game IMO. Tangled Shadows is a part of that. It gives Lilith an ability to hamstring an important model, grow, and lower the enemy model count on turn 1. Between that, growth, and black blood, you got a model with slightly more killing power and 3 more wounds (i think might be 4). Sure she doesnt get a free henchman but then again who cares she clearly does not need it. Doh! Forgot about her card draw! With the right uppgrade and totem she's drawing 11 cards when she stones. 

 

Dreamer has a free henchman. But, his henchman is basically unkillable. Big difference there. But that's not the real similarity I see. Really, the comparison is drawn that both Chompy w/ Melee Expert Upgrade (so none significant models summoning for the Boy) and the Vikies suffer from the same probably. They are extremely vulnerable the turn they attack. When I play LCB, what I found was that him coming out and killing a model usually left him in a place where when he gets killed the Dreamer is left surrounded by enemy models. Unless you snipe that one lose hanging fruit which in most cases is not where the real threats are. Yet, the Dreamer some some answer for this, that is Daydreams. They can pull LCB back from harms way. AND the Effigy of Whatever plus the Dreamer specific upgrade add an additional ability to place LCB back from harmsway. So clearly the Devs saw that this build was weaker than the summon for that and added more options to fix it. Meanwhile, where the Viks are concerned, they have no retraction. They jump out and smash then have to sit and weather the return attacks. The only way the Viks will do enough damage when they pop out to make the reprisal not that horrifying is if her opponent was silly enough to clump together to give lots of whirlwind triggers.

 

Then there's Lynch who has a free henchman, who can be summoned, and actually has a few tricks for getting both out and into combat.

 

 

And that's what leaves me feeling like the Vicks need some boost. They don't want for speed or hitting power so my suggestion is not to enhance that. I also dont think just adding summoning to the list because honestly its a cop out. Plus, sword vik is too killy to be resummonable. Instead, I think they need a way to hit and run. Much like Marcus, whose crew is not very hard to kill but they make up for that by pretty much all having some kind of 0 action leap. I feel that a mechanic, upgrade or model, needs to be added that gives the Viks a way to get out of combat at the end or after at least 1 activation that lets them at least move a few inches out of harms way.

 

In all the games I see with them, the only games they do well is when whirlwind is maximumized. If it isn't, then whatever model they kill when they Dragons Bite or whatever, is just not enough to offset getting pretty much murdered for it. I mean, a single stitched, a 6 stone model, can reliable kill a whole sister in one activation.  

[zFiend]

From my experiences by playing them and against them. No. They are not weak, they are ridiculous in that they just evaporate the opposing crew without a fuss. 

[valhallan42nd]

The reason people think Viks might be weak: every new Viks player figures out the Vik sling shot, overuses it, and when people figure it out and adjust, their "one big trick" no longer works.

The Viks have a lot more tricks than one, but they take time to figure out.

[PeregrineFalcon]

The Vik's are as weak as the player who is playing them is at Malifaux. Likewise, they are as strong as the player is at the game of Malifaux. They are deceptively difficult to play well.

[Tuttleboy]

Yes they're weak, but only if you need to something that doesn't involve eliminating enemy models. If you have a couple schemes that require interaction there are better options than a Viks crew in Outcasts.

[Insidiously Mad]

I think the Viks are very strong but probably the easiest Master in the game to use poorly. Choosing exactly where and when to apply the Viks is the key to playing them. And building a good list around them that can do the schemes/strats while they act as a denial force by killing off important enemy models or denying swathes of the board

 

Also Dreamer/Chompy comparison is completely unfair. Chompy may not be able to die but he is also never on the board at the same time as Dreamer so it isn't really the same as having two models. 

It sounds like you may want to play as these Masters you see as more powerful, when you do you will discover their weaknesses and see that they are also not unbeatable

 

There is no way Viks are a crew that needs a buff. Some of the top players in the UK are Viktoria players. Even if they were going to patch a master, it would not be them. 

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I'm wondering if you high estimation of their power is relative to the play groups you are from. Just as I wonder if my perception of their weakness is from the skills from within my own playgroup. I would say that me and a few of my friends are some of the strongest players in our area and we dont play Viks and we also stomp them pretty hard when we play against them. I'm going to take up the mantle of playing them to see exactly how strong they are versus things like Levi, Dreamer, Lilith, Kirai and all the other master I think are stronger then the sisters are. 

 

Mostly I was wondering if anyone else thought they were as under powered as I do. 

[Dirial]

As the title says; Are the Vicky's Weak? When compared to similar masters they seem to be lacking something.

 

Compared to the Viks, all other Master sincerely lack something too: Killing power.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I'm wondering if you high estimation of their power is relative to the play groups you are from. Just as I wonder if my perception of their weakness is from the skills from within my own playgroup. I would say that me and a few of my friends are some of the strongest players in our area and we dont play Viks and we also stomp them pretty hard when we play against them. I'm going to take up the mantle of playing them to see exactly how strong they are versus things like Levi, Dreamer, Lilith, Kirai and all the other master I think are stronger then the sisters are. 

 

Mostly I was wondering if anyone else thought they were as under powered as I do. 

Simple answer: No, I don't see them as being under powered

 

 

Longer answer: They are a strong crew and do a lot quite well. They aren't something you can just throw around, precision attacks are key. I have seen bad players use them and good players, we have at least 4-5 different people who have played Viks in our area. 2 of those players use them to much success (they're also the better Malifaux players in the area), 1 player is quite good but he leaves himself open and can be taken out, the rest of the players dabble in Viks and haven't totally grasped how to make them shine. So as I said before, the Viks doing well depends on the player using them. They aren't an 'auto pilot' type of crew.

[Insidiously Mad]

I am predominately a Dreamer player but Viks are the crew I've played the second most. And I just came up against them in a tournament on the weekend (I was playing Dreamer.) I ended up beating one of the top Lilith players in the country and my only loss was to Viktorias (by another top player).

As a Dreamer player, Viks are fantastic against Dreamer. I find them a really tough matchup when you need to hold an area (Turf War, Extraction, GtS, Squatters) but not as good if I can avoid them entirely (Reconiter, Interference, Stake a Claim). Like any Masters they have their strengths and weaknesses.

Blood Vik is the best model in the game at removing a given model regardless of most of their special rules (although Levi is better against certain models, usually lower wound ones).

Also if you aren't maximizing Whirlwind you are missing out on what makes them so strong. And if they are massively spread out to avoid it then you are effecting their tactics which is always a good thing. 

I do think Viks lose bad when they lose more than any other crew just as they win big a lot more. So it is more likely to feel like they are either Broken (a complaint I've also heard) or underpowered depending on how they are performing as they pretty rarely do decently well. 

 

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I think whirlwind is too easily countered. I think extraction is probably the first best strategy to take them in. Then Guard the Stash. 

Not sure how a summoning dreamer player struggles though. Id' say in all the games I played Dreamer Vs. Viky this happens.

Drew a few 12 or 13. Stitched blast away with Gamble Your Life. Dead Sword Vik.

Or

 

LCB Goes chomp chomp.

 

Because I dont clump together when I see sword vik on the table. I spread out and keep the damage to a min. I also don't fight her for the model she wants to kill.

I'll let sword vik have teddy or widow weaver. Because sword vik has to commit her master and herself to get there without Dreamer striking first. Then, after they took a model that frankily I dont need becasue Dreamer summons like a BWOSS! i use stitched to finish the task. 

 

The Viks definetly hit hard, harder than probably anyone. This is true. But Def 6 and 7 wounds is not enough. Even with a positive flip. The only thing that keeps them alive the round after they attack is if they get lucky and their opponent drew no good cards. But, if he did, then all he has to do is screen something, wait for the attack, then use those good cards on a attack stat 6 or 7 with good low damage or no stone prevent and boom. All is done. 

 

Also, lets talk Meta. Lots of Levi action now a days. Levi can easily kill a vik in a single activation. Few masters can get taken down that quickly. 

[Tapdancer]

In the UK tournament scene Vics are used regularly. Three Outcast players made it to this years Masters all regularly use Vics. Not underpowered in the slightest.

[Jonasty]

I'm not a Viks player but I've faced them, won some games, lost some games. Depends on the player(s) as multiple folks have said.

 

Really it's just a matter of knowing your crew inside and out and how to apply everything in a given situation. Viks are no different. I'd argue that folks who struggle with Viks are probably too narrow-minded in their approach more than anything which I think is a perception thing. Viks play-style seems relatively simplistic as they're so strong in melee but there's nuance to their crew if you find it that lets you truly own your opponent. I think folks can miss that nuance because the Viks come across as really straight forward. If you play as Levi or Daw you know you've got weird interactions ahead of you which forces you to really think about how you play the game and your crew. I think some people pick up Viks and get sucked into the (relatively) simple approach they can offer and then lose sight of their less obvious interactions, etc.

[Hateful Darkblack]

From what I've seen, the Viktorias can fall down, or they can be incredibly brutal.

 

They're fantastic against clumped enemies. I was surprised when my whole Ulixball got eaten by Viktoria of Blood on turn two one game. Where did that come from?

 

Other times, they can fall down. When playing Leveticus, I can usually melt the Viktorias before they can slingshot in and eat me.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Levi I hesitate to throw out too much as an example because many masters fall to his offense power. Plus he can easily teleport 10" turn one, gain fast, and shoot a vick practically in her deployment zone. Its nearly a moot point. But, the Viks lack the survivability to go two rounds. They get one round of bash, maybe two if they are really lucky. Even with a good player it feels like they are too easily countered. We all know the slingshot trick. So its not useful. But take it away and what do they have?

[Seregon]

Take Hannah and Fury on BloodVik and you'll have a Hannah that buffs both the Viks and herself (going up to 4/6 /8 :blast ) I usually go up with Hannah or another more or less tanky model (Ronin works since they can't be charged) first to protect/bait and just charge in afterwards.

 

I never throw my Viks unsupported into anything unless it's already in a desperate last attempt at countering a bad mistake I've made earlier.

 

Most people also forget that they are two models instead of one, which counts for lots. After killing only a few models I can just turn them into scheme runners if I feel the need for it, or to swamp a quarter for recon. This is one of the main reasons I usually take them over Von Schill.

[Adran]

I think Viks have a strange learning curve. They are pretty good for beginners, as they have quite a signposted synergy. They are Pretty good for experienced players who know how to get the most out of them.

 

Its the in between stages that people struggle. When the opponents know their trick, and have learn ways to make the low wounds really hurt.

 

They are also quite an all or nothing crew. I'm not saying you'rwe not going to get close games with them, but a lot of the time the bulk seems to be decided turns 2 or 3 when either the Viks have sucessfully removed a lot of the opponents crew, or have been removed themselves.

 

You may never manage to pull off a sligshot in a game, but it can have distorted the opponents game hugely as they play to minimise it.

[Joel]

THIS, for every master in the game IMO

[oreaper]

THIS, for every master in the game IMO

 

I feel like there was supposed to be a hyperlink here.....

 

I havent found the viks to be weak personaly, but there are several ways to play the crew. Once you drop the supposed standard upgrades I find that the viks are a stand alone non-ignorable element in a crew that is a flexable as your 40ish stones will allow. As far as locking the Viks down with throw away models...i havent found this to be an issue. If i find a target to be exposing, then i will avoid or circumvent that target which is not hard at all with the vikkies. 

[Kirby]

Not sure.  At first I was thinking Ashen Core after splitting A&D with Leveticus's Rebirth shenanigans, but Leveticus is not a construct. 

[Bengt]

How is levy gaining fast? I under stand the teleport but I can't figure out how he is gaining fast.

Not sure if that is what was meant, but there is always Oath Keeper.

[oreaper]

Since the topic here is the viks then ill go ahead and ask a question ive been wondering about for a while. If not running a malifaux child....have you viks players been running sisters in fury? Im finding that i actually use it less and less as i play more and 2 stones is a hefty investment for something hardly used. It seems that one the rare occasion i do get it off it tends to be overkill. What is the consensous at large, worth it or no?

[zFiend]

Was that the accomplice one or the damage one?

[Math Mathonwy]

Was that the accomplice one or the damage one?

The latter - all Sisters' Ml damage goes up by +2. Costs 2SS.

[zFiend]

I think that's pretty damn worth the price. Because that always ends up in some seriously dead models.