Falling and measuring distance when flying/leaping/incorporeally-floating

[Wee Little Puppet Man]

As per the FAQ 3-01-15, we know that leap and incorporeal work the same as flying, minus the damage reduction when falling (and with incorporeal benefiting from damage reduction from sh and ml).
 

 

Q: A model with the Incorporeal Ability ignores terrain when it moves. If it is on the ground floor of a building which is 10” tall, can it end its move on top of the building, even if its Wk stat is less than 10, since it ignores the building while moving? Same question for a model with Flight in regards to vertical terrain.

A: No. Although measurements in Malifaux are generally made from a top down view, vertical distances are measured while moving a model (see pg. 42 of the rulebook, Movement & Terrain). If the model with Incorporeal ends its move on top of the 10” tall building, it would have moved 10” and, unless it has a Wk of 10 or greater, this is not a legal move. However, if the Incorporeal model has a sufficient Wk stat to complete the move, it would be able to end the move on top of the terrain, ignoring the usual rules for climbing, etc. Flight works similarly, except in the case of Enclosed terrain (see Enclosed terrain, rulebook pg. 60).

 

While spirits breaking an ankle when falling might seem counterintuitive (specially when they got up there by floating in the first place!), it can be argued that they suffer damage when materializing in order to avoid going through the ground.

Still, this interpretation leave me with some questions:

1. If a spirit with Wk 6" can float up to the roof of a Ht 5" building, couldn't it float back down? And If it can, couldn't it do it when at the edge of the roof to avoid falling?
   • Let's say a Poltergeist is at the edge of a HT 5" building, that it reached by floating up, as per the FAQ rules. With incorporeal not preventing damage from falling, if the Poltergeist were to fall and then move 6" horizontally, it would suffer 5 damage (and die). But what if the Poltergeist chose to go down as it came up, by floating 5" down and then moving 1" horizontally? Is that possible?
   • As stated by the rules (pg. 42, big book):

      

     Models moving off elevations and falling suffer no damage if the fall was 2" or less. If the fall was more than 2" the fall deals 1 damage per 1"

     Now, it doesn't say that moving off elevations equals falling. It says that falling deals damage, but it might be that a leaping or incorporeally-floating model can choose not to fall.

   • If it is possible, if the Poltergeist were to be lured or pushed, could it also choose not to fall, but to float down?
   • If all this works with incorporeal, does it work the same with Leap?
2. How is the floating/flying/leaping movement measured? I've been told that you should measure diagonally from the base of the model till the place where you want it to land. This seems consistent with the Movement section of the Rulebook (pg. 42):

    

   To move a model measure from the point of its base closest to the direction it will be moving. Determine how far the model will be moving, and then move the model that distance, ensuring no part of the model moves further than that distance.

   
   
   Still, the FAQ explicitelly mentions that vertical movement is measured as per the Movement & Terrain section, where (only climbing) movement is explained as horizontal + vertical distance. And I would say that to measure horizontally + vertically makes sense from the top-down, 2D approach of the rules to measuring.
   
   So, what is it? Diagonal measurement (ignore terrain and measure from the base till the place you want to reach) or horizontal + vertical measurement (the same as climbing as it seems to be described in the FAQ).
   • Just to be sure: you can leap/flight/float onto unclimbable buildings, right?
3. This has already been discussed, and it is mostly a matter of abstraction, but:
   
   we are accepting that a model can leap or flight over a Ht 10" building to move, let's say, its Wk 5" and end on the other side; but it cannot land on top of said building, right? I have to say that's a little wyrd. But, hell, it's just a game!

Edited March 9, 2015 by Wee Little Puppet Man

[Adran]

The difference between FAQ and errata is that errata changes the rules, FAQ merely helps to interpret them. I see no possible way to interpret the rules in a way which allows incorporeal models to move up without climbing but not down.

 

A model may not move further than its wk stat during a Wk action. It can't move furtehr than its Cg stat during a Charge or leap action.

If a model ends up on a higher Ht to that which it started on, then that difference is needed to move.

when the model changes Ht, it needs to consider falling damage.

The falling damage is 1 per ht dropped, but if you drop by 2 or less then you don't take fallign damage.

Rising by Ht2 is equal to dropping by -2. -2 is less than 2, therfore no falling damage.

 

 

Not eligant, and probably flawed. Most of the ones I could come up with did not allow a model to fall during the move without it reducing their wk distance. Whcioh might be the case.

[solkan]

Wouldn't it be simpler to say "The distance the model moves is measured both horizontally and vertically."

 

And "The difference between Incorporeal and Flight is that, at the end of the movement, Incorporeal models fall if they haven't moved to terrain level."

 

Because that's derivable from what the FAQ says:

 

Q: A model with the Incorporeal Ability ignores terrain when it moves. If it is on the ground floor of a building which is 10” tall, can it end its move on top of the building, even if its Wk stat is less than 10, since it ignores the building while moving? Same question for a model with Flight in regards to vertical terrain.

A: No. Although measurements in Malifaux are generally made from a top down view, vertical distances 7

are measured while moving a model (see pg. 42 of the rulebook, Movement & Terrain). If the model
with Incorporeal ends its move on top of the 10” tall building, it would have moved 10” and, unless it
has a Wk of 10 or greater, this is not a legal move. However, if the Incorporeal model has a sufficient Wk stat to complete the move, it would be able to end the move on top of the terrain, ignoring the usual rules for climbing, etc. Flight works similarly, except in the case of Enclosed terrain (see Enclosed terrain, rulebook pg. 60).

 

You have to incorporeal models, one at the base of an X" tall tower and the other at the top.  You're going to expect the distance necessary to move to be the same whether the one at the top goes to join the one at the bottom, or the one at the bottom goes to join the one at the top, right?

 

If there's any falling involved, it would have to be caused by distance not covered by the model's movement. 

[Agent of the Breach]

 I'm still a little confused; is the flight movement measured diagonally? If so, incorporeal moves the same way because both use the same wording, don't they? 

[jonahmaul]

With the exception of measuring distance from an elevation for ranged attacks all distances in Malifaux are measured horizontally so for Flight you just measure the Wk/Ch from a top down view and move the model the appropriate distance.  They have the same wording except Flight specifically states that the model ignores falling damage which Incorporeal does not.

[Agent of the Breach]

Well, now everything sound reasonable   

[Bengt]

With the exception of measuring distance from an elevation for ranged attacks all distances in Malifaux are measured horizontally so for Flight you just measure the Wk/Ch from a top down view and move the model the appropriate distance.  They have the same wording except Flight specifically states that the model ignores falling damage which Incorporeal does not.

Not sure what you mean with the first part, the Vantage section explicitly say that you still measure range top down, p 41.

[jonahmaul]

Not sure what you mean with the first part, the Vantage section explicitly say that you still measure range top down, p 41.

You are correct, getting confused between checking the LoS lanes (which is done diagonally) and measuring the range (which is done normally).  Apologies for the confusion folks.

[Math Mathonwy]

With the exception of measuring distance from an elevation for ranged attacks all distances in Malifaux are measured horizontally so for Flight you just measure the Wk/Ch from a top down view and move the model the appropriate distance.  They have the same wording except Flight specifically states that the model ignores falling damage which Incorporeal does not.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, that is not what the FAQ says. Elevation changing Movement is indeed measured diagonally AFAIK.

[Myyrä]

Unless I'm misunderstanding, that is not what the FAQ says. Elevation changing Movement is indeed measured diagonally AFAIK.

The FAQ does not talk about diagonal movement or measuring and neither does the page of the rule book that the FAQ refers to. Rule book merely states that models can move vertically if the terrain has climbable trait.

[Bengt]

I have assumed that the vertical movement was measured up down (it seemed to fit best with how things are usually measured in the game), but I guess it doesn't really say one way or the other.

[binkys]

I am really curious about whether it should be measured diagonally or not, but as it stands now with the way the FAQ stated vertical movement is measured, I have been playing it as move horizontal then vertical to get a flying model on top of a building or other elevated location, rather than move diagonally.

[Math Mathonwy]

The FAQ does not talk about diagonal movement or measuring and neither does the page of the rule book that the FAQ refers to. Rule book merely states that models can move vertically if the terrain has climbable trait.

It says that vertical distances are measured. I can see both interpretations (diagonal or horizontal + vertical) since they both effectively measure vertical distance (though naturally arrive at different total distances).

[Wee Little Puppet Man]

I also agree that it's not really clear, but I think that the FAQ seems to indicate that the measurement is horizontal + vertical. When it says 

 

 

Although measurements in Malifaux are generally made from a top down view, vertical distances are measured while moving a model (see pg. 42 of the rulebook, Movement & Terrain). If the model with Incorporeal ends its move on top of the 10” tall building, it would have moved 10” and, unless it has a Wk of 10 or greater, this is not a legal move.

it referes to the section on Movement & Terrain to check vertical movement rules. There, only climbing rules are described, which hare horizontal + vertical. Also, the way the movement for the incorporeal model is described (if it has Wk 10" it can reach the top of a Ht 10" building) seems to imply horizontal + vertical measurement; although as it is only talking about strictly vertical movement, it is far from clear.

[Fenton Crack]

Since the FAQ, we have been just playing it: measure horizontal, then measure vertical, and then add. 

 

This has been done out of simplicity more than anything.

 

Since the terrain Height is defined in number of whole inches (rounded per the rules), if you measure the actual diagonal, it would be different than the actual hypotenuse off of the true measured horizontal, and the stated Height. 

 

This method can make for a less satisfactory interaction action, as the model is clearly moving less than measuring diagonally would allow, so I would welcome official clarity as to the "actual" way to measure.

[Myyrä]

Since the FAQ, we have been just playing it: measure horizontal, then measure vertical, and then add. 

 

This has been done out of simplicity more than anything.

 

Since the terrain Height is defined in number of whole inches (rounded per the rules), if you measure the actual diagonal, it would be different than the actual hypotenuse off of the true measured horizontal, and the stated Height. 

 

This method can make for a less satisfactory interaction action, as the model is clearly moving less than measuring diagonally would allow, so I would welcome official clarity as to the "actual" way to measure.

Vertical movement doesn't actually use the Ht of the terrain. You just measure the vertical distance moved.

[Fenton Crack]

Well, if a model was at ground level, an flew up onto a Height 8 hill (or whatever), we are treating it as as being 8" tall, since its actual surface is parabolic in shape, with no exact height since it varies between 7 and 3/4" and 8", and if the hill has a diameter of any significance, it is going to be very difficult as one may not be able to get an accurate measurement if the model is centered or any substantial distance from the edge.  Therefore, if some thing flew from "the ground" to the top of something Height 8, I would say it has moved vertically 8", that of its height.

 

However, that being said if your terrain setup had a slanted bridge that at one end at 6" above the ground and another 10" and the actual height can be measured from where the model started, it would be much more accurate of the actual distance traveled

 

Vertical variances will always be an odd duck in this game, based on how terrain is declared or not as well.  Most people play "ramps" or angled terrain as just horizontal movement, when moving across them, but if you have a ramping surface that is both long and of an appreciable angle, walking across the ramp will give the player a significant vertical movement "for free".

[Fenton Crack]

I also wonder by reading the FAQ, whether we should be accounting for the vertical component when something jumps off a a piece of terrain, or flies off, as it is still vertical movement, and the FAQ does not specify vertical movement has to be "up".

[binkys]

I also wonder by reading the FAQ, whether we should be accounting for the vertical component when something jumps off a a piece of terrain, or flies off, as it is still vertical movement, and the FAQ does not specify vertical movement has to be "up".

 

With a flying model,  it works out essentially that I choose to fall off the edge of the terrain, ignoring the falling damage since I fly, then continue my measured movement.

[Dassenkop]

With the exception of measuring distance from an elevation for ranged attacks all distances in Malifaux are measured horizontally so for Flight you just measure the Wk/Ch from a top down view and move the model the appropriate distance.  They have the same wording except Flight specifically states that the model ignores falling damage which Incorporeal does not.

New player and still confused I'm sorry. Played a game yesterday where there was a big ice-block 2 ht on the board. My flying unit was on terrain level ht 0 and wanted to move on top of the iceblock - do I have to take the 2 inch vertical movement into account? Same would apply for an incorporeal or leaping model?

 

I'm also understanding that (most) people also play it that if I had flown over the ice-block to the other side I do not have to take the 2 ht into account and only measure horizontally.

 

P.S. my game group seems to prefer the horizontal/vertical way of measuring as opposed to diagonal movement measuring and I'm okay with that as long as its clear and consistently applied.

[jonahmaul]

New player and still confused I'm sorry. Played a game yesterday where there was a big ice-block 2 ht on the board. My flying unit was on terrain level ht 0 and wanted to move on top of the iceblock - do I have to take the 2 inch vertical movement into account? Same would apply for an incorporeal or leaping model?

 

I'm also understanding that (most) people also play it that if I had flown over the ice-block to the other side I do not have to take the 2 ht into account and only measure horizontally.

Yes, yes and yes!  Exactly as you state.  So if you were two inches away from the ice block you would pay 2" to move horizontally and 2" to move vertically (remember to make sure you pay the movement for the back of the back to get on said object!).  But if you move over it you ignore it altogether.

[Gremlin guy]

I was going through all the rules forum post when I came across this one that raises a question for me.

If a model with flying, leap, float, or a similar rule is on a Ht 5 object and wants to move to a ht 4 object that is 4 inches away, does it need to fall down,move over, then move up or can it just move the distance across and fall the inch down?

[Myyrä]

There is nothing in the rules suggesting it could move over the gap without falling/climbing down first.

[Gremlin guy]

That's how I was reading it too. Its a shame that to fly from one roof to the other you first have to fall to the ground.

[lusciousmccabe]

Actually the rules for Flight, Leap and Incorporeal suggest that pretty strongly when they say the model ignores terrain while moving. The FAQ does say to count the vertical distance you've moved to stop you getting "free" movement when going between levels. It doesn't say anything about counting the Ht of obstacles along the route and if it did that would make the above rules pretty useless. 

 

If a model wants to leap over a Ht 5 building that's 4 inches wide and land on a Ht 1 cart on the other side that's fine. It needs 4" of movement plus one for the vertical (per the FAQ) and whatever its base takes up. Gremlin Guy's scenario is the exact same but upside down, and I don't see why that would make any difference.

[Myyrä]

Actually the rules for Flight, Leap and Incorporeal suggest that pretty strongly when they say the model ignores terrain while moving. The FAQ does say to count the vertical distance you've moved to stop you getting "free" movement when going between levels. It doesn't say anything about counting the Ht of obstacles along the route and if it did that would make the above rules pretty useless. 

 

If a model wants to leap over a Ht 5 building that's 4 inches wide and land on a Ht 1 cart on the other side that's fine. It needs 4" of movement plus one for the vertical (per the FAQ) and whatever its base takes up. Gremlin Guy's scenario is the exact same but upside down, and I don't see why that would make any difference.

Shoo! We don't want your common sense here. Go away!