belle spam, mech rider and other broken things!

[bertmac]

So a while back i remember there being much wailing and gnashing of teeth about potential belle spam and how mech rider was going to become a must take and im sure there were a few other things as well. Has anyone experienced any of these things actually happening in their metas or was it all just a fuss about nothing?

[Malal]

In the UK tournament scene, belles spam has never really been a thing. You will see belles in resser crews but they're by no means ubiquitous, they are still considered strong, but you don't hear them called overpowered. Mech rider, again, definitely considered above the curve and very prominent in a lot of Arcanist (though not all) and Levi crews, There are some strats he's more likely yo be seen in than others.

 

Other things that I've heard labelled "Filth"or "broken" are Levi himself, Colette/Acolyte prompt spam and Wong.Gremlins in general.....

Played Gremlins, mostly Wong all last year and so far this year apart from 3 tournaments where I took Colette/Acolyte prompt spam, taking Levi next weekend 

[Bodiless]

I think Mech Rider has been cuddled since said wailing and gnashing, so that one at least Wyrd agreed with.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not that I remember.

[zFiend]

The card draw was limited to once a turn if I remember correctly. But that isn't what's wrong with Mech Rider.

[Myyrä]

The card draw was limited to once a turn if I remember correctly. But that isn't what's wrong with Mech Rider.

The card draw was always once per turn. It was limited to one card instead of two.

[mythicFOX]

All IMHO

 

The UK scene is highly competitive, and I'm fairly active on it. I've yet to see any of the moaned about elements dominate.

 

A lot of the 'omg X is broken' talk tends to originate under two circumstances;

 

1) The best player in a small local mata dominates with a particular crew, their opponents fail to evolve their crews/play to counter and the meta stagnates.  This usually ends when players in their meta finally does adapt, or when the meta is exposed to new / wider players.

 

2) Something unexpected dominates at a big tournament. This usually ends shortly after the event as the meta-game evolves to understand and account for the new threat.

 

It's worth noting that it's perfectly natural for some models to be ahead or behind the ideal power curve. I've yet to see anything in Malifaux be far enough ahead of the curve to be called broken when played against a skilled and knowledgeable opponent.

[The Colour Red]

 

A lot of the 'omg X is broken' talk tends to originate under two circumstances;

 

1) The best player in a small local mata dominates with a particular crew, their opponents fail to evolve their crews/play to counter and the meta stagnates.  This usually ends when players in their meta finally does adapt, or when the meta is exposed to new / wider players.

 

 

 

or when the local meta dies from this.

[dgraz]

or when the local meta dies from this.

This could happen with any great gamer.......if the other people playing aren't willing to adapt it's not because the game is broken.

[Dirial]

This could happen with any great gamer.......if the other people playing aren't willing to adapt it's not because the game is broken.

 

Agreed.

[lusciousmccabe]

I've yet to see something blatantly OP in M2E. There are things that are noticeably more or less efficient and the potential for bad match-ups where half your stuff doesn't work effectively, but nothing really over the top has jumped out at me so far.

 

Mech rider for example isn't game-breaking, it's just a stupidly easy pick for certain strategy/scheme combinations. 

[SpectreEliteGaming]

I've always felt that it is the certain combinations of models one can take that really lend to the broken feel. Illuminated and stitched on close deployment or nurses with... everything in... any situation.

Considering the models in a vacuum they are all reasonably balanced within the typical power scale one would expect.

I'm not sure Belle spam is even that good? Anyone have any facerollingly easy games with this strat?

[Whut]

Colette/Acolyte prompt spam

Can you elaborate a little on how this works? Do you take 1 Acolyte or 2? Cassandra I assume for another prompt? Do you take Mech Rider? Do you have a Frontline (something that can soak a bit of damage: Joss, Howard, Large Arachnid, etc) or do you just finesse around and make sure you don't get hit while accomplishing schemes?

Would like to know cause I'm currently havING trouble fitting everything I want into a 50 SS Colette list xD

[Malal]

I ran 2x Acolytes, Cassandra, Imbued Myrandabus, Mech Rider, Seize the Day, Arcane Reservoir and the Surge Trigger on Prompt, Practiced production, in Reckoning I switched to the Big Rig crew

 

No real damage soak, the idea is to keep as much of the opponents crew slow as you can so there's no real counter attack while at the same time you're draining their hand of cards whilst hopefully maintaining yours through Surge/Imbued Energies, the push helps you finesse out of danger and you just sweat scheme markers all over the board

[Pierowmaniac]

I ran 2x Acolytes, Cassandra, Imbued Myrandabus, Mech Rider, Seize the Day, Arcane Reservoir and the Surge Trigger on Prompt, Practiced production, in Reckoning I switched to the Big Rig crew

 

No real damage soak, the idea is to keep as much of the opponents crew slow as you can so there's no real counter attack while at the same time you're draining their hand of cards whilst hopefully maintaining yours through Surge/Imbued Energies, the push helps you finesse out of danger and you just sweat scheme markers all over the board

 

I was Malal's Guinea pig and can confirm this is indeed filthy!

Every other attack against me seemed to end with one more slow minion, one less card in my hand, plus Malal getting a card draw!

[Argentbadger]

All IMHO

 

The UK scene is highly competitive, and I'm fairly active on it. I've yet to see any of the moaned about elements dominate.

 

A lot of the 'omg X is broken' talk tends to originate under two circumstances;

 

1) The best player in a small local mata dominates with a particular crew, their opponents fail to evolve their crews/play to counter and the meta stagnates.  This usually ends when players in their meta finally does adapt, or when the meta is exposed to new / wider players.

 

2) Something unexpected dominates at a big tournament. This usually ends shortly after the event as the meta-game evolves to understand and account for the new threat.

 

It's worth noting that it's perfectly natural for some models to be ahead or behind the ideal power curve. I've yet to see anything in Malifaux be far enough ahead of the curve to be called broken when played against a skilled and knowledgeable opponent.

This has been my experience.  Skill is OP.

 

I ran 2x Acolytes, Cassandra, Imbued Myrandabus, Mech Rider, Seize the Day, Arcane Reservoir and the Surge Trigger on Prompt, Practiced production, in Reckoning I switched to the Big Rig crew

 

No real damage soak, the idea is to keep as much of the opponents crew slow as you can so there's no real counter attack while at the same time you're draining their hand of cards whilst hopefully maintaining yours through Surge/Imbued Energies, the push helps you finesse out of danger and you just sweat scheme markers all over the board

For a more detailed look at how this works from the wrong side, this was my experience: link.

 

Fortunately for both James' and Rob's points, the UK tournament scene is really friendly so I have always been happy to be outplayed by a cheerful face.

[ddot]

I've always felt that it is the certain combinations of models one can take that really lend to the broken feel. Illuminated and stitched on close deployment or nurses with... everything in... any situation.

Considering the models in a vacuum they are all reasonably balanced within the typical power scale one would expect.

I'm not sure Belle spam is even that good? Anyone have any facerollingly easy games with this strat?

Lure spam of any kind can be effective at pulling an opposing crew closer to where you want them to be as opposed to them going where they really should be going... if that makes any sense.It's application is both universal and limited in its usefulness. In Turf War, it might be useful for pulling models away from the turf marker, then it might not. If your opponent already has 10 models near the turf marker, it won't be as effective as if they had 2 or 3.

 

I did a Pandora crew with Lilitu, beckoner (built-in Lure) and doppelganger (can mimic the Lure). Somewhat effective in this context as the Lure is a Wp resist. Evil. 

[Dirial]

I'm not sure Belle spam is even that good? Anyone have any facerollingly easy games with this strat?

 

There was a thread some time ago when a local meta (Chicago, I think?) was totally dominated by a guy playing Seamus with around 6 Belles. No one can deny that Belles are ace at what they do, but I still think that we just saw an example of MythicFox' point there: A player with a brilliant positioning game, using a model good at positioning to devastating effect. The player was OP, not the Belle spam.

 

My opinion.

[zFiend]

I think it also was quite questionable on whether it was the Belles or the terrain as the terrain in the given pictures was sparse..

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Perhaps I just tend to run crews that want to be close to you? Go ahead and lure me - I dare you! > Six Belles seems like a really gimped list - having two luring models is way more than enough for me at anytime.

But yeah I'm on the skill train for the most part - utilizing combinations in their most optimal opportunities is what people see as OP. What's really happening is you have one or more players far beyond the level of experience or skill of the others and they just dominate the scene. Tournaments are going to be a much different situation. If you play to win there are just some crews you really aren't going to want to take (ex. anything with a hard counter or which can easily be countered through cautious gameplay).

[zFiend]

I do believe the are models/masters that are a bit over the curve compared to others. When you combine that with a player who is optimizing and playing for the win full on that's when the OP or NPE arises.

We have a fairly good meta as to where the majority plays just for the fun of it and with not that optimized lists. Some of us leave home with a crew they are feeling to play regardless of schemes and strategies which we flip before the game.

But there are some masters that aren't all that liked on our meta too. Regardless of who wields them.

[MasterDisaster]

But there are some masters that aren't all that liked on our meta too. Regardless of who wields them.

 

I hear ya there. I was given a  ban list consisting of Tara, McCabe, Perdita and eventually my beloved Viks against many of the players in my old gaming club. They felt the crews were too filthy and refused to play them. So instead I started bashing their heads in with Nico, Von Schill, Misaki, Lynch etc. Eventually they lifted Perdita and the Viks from the ban list but to this day some of them refuse to play against Tara or McCabe. I can understand Tara but not McCabe!

 

It's not that those crews are extremely powerful though. As MythicFox states earlier in the thread it's that the guys there were using Misaki, Lilith and Perdita over and over again. They failed to adapt to their environment and consequently felt it was an NPE or OP because I was consistently beating them by a fair margin. Whilst I brought diversity and various crews to play them with I was always facing the same crews and very quickly figured out how to counter them with pretty much anything those players threw at me. 

[Requirement]

Not adapting is exactly what makes some models/crews feel over powered. Sure, like zFiend said, some models are a little ahead of the curve but they aren't outright broken.

[LunarSol]

Perhaps I just tend to run crews that want to be close to you? Go ahead and lure me - I dare you! > Six Belles seems like a really gimped list - having two luring models is way more than enough for me at anytime.

 

I thought the primary issue with the mass belle spam was actually the mass pounce trigger that let each lure trigger 3+ attacks on the lured model for each belle.

[Math Mathonwy]

Perhaps I just tend to run crews that want to be close to you? Go ahead and lure me - I dare you! > Six Belles seems like a really gimped list - having two luring models is way more than enough for me at anytime.

You probably still want some control over your advancement? I mean, if you don't see the value in Lure, you haven't played this game enough. Not saying that Belle spam is somehow OP but not realizing the potential of multiple Lures is just weird.