House Rules for Summoning in low-SS games?

[Hateful Darkblack]

I've heard a lot of people say that Summoning is overpowered in low-Soulstone games.

 

Does anyone have any ideas for house rules that can make that better?

 

(Or other format or implementation changes that can improve it?)

 

I know a lot of Hardcore games say no Summoning -- I know when I play them they do -- but I'd love to hear other suggestions too.

 

***

 

EDIT: I think the one I want to try out is "No Summoning on Turn One or Two." Once I've tried it a few times, I'll post results here.

[Hateful Darkblack]

(I'm hoping for suggestions that make Summoning possible but not overbalancing. If you think that Summoning is just fine in low-SS games, or don't like house rules, this is probably not going to be an interesting thread for you!)

[scarlett fever]

Good initiative.

 

• Increase TN by 1 for every 10SS below 40 (doesn't work on non-duel summons, eg Levi)
• Put a per turn limit on summons (hampers mass summoners like Ramos, encourages summoning in big models)
• disallow first turn summons
• Put an overall summoning limit of 1/3 of the SS level of the game
• Add a cost of 1SS per model summoned (similar issues to second idea), could be based on model cost? Eg 2SS for models over 7SS in value

Just throwing out ideas, interested to see what folk come up with

[rythos42]

A few more brainstorming ideas

 

1. summons cost an additional AP. 
2. Increase TN by 5-{turn number}.
3. Add a new suit to summoning abilities.
4. Summoned models come in Paralyzed instead of Slow.
5. Summoned models lose additional wounds.
6. Have to discard a card before summoning.

 

I think that any solution will probably be a combination of ideas. I have thoughts on Scarlett Fever's ideas, but am keeping them to myself for now in the interest in brainstorming a bunch of things we can discuss as a whole. Or discuss those combination. Or...yeah.

[The Godlyness]

It's quite imbalanced. Reconnoiter dreamer at 35 is just a night mare. Same with Ramos and 85 spiders.

Kirai pooping out models. Molly summoning here ever she wants.

Turning a 35 stone game where most crews have 5-7 models and exponentially increasing your model count is Not great. At 50 you have ways to dance around Or position but at 35 you don't get many toys.

How I feel.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Godlyness, any suggestions for house rules?

[Hateful Darkblack]

A lot of these ideas seem to involve increasing TNs or AP costs for Summon, but those only seem to work for some Summoners. McMourning, Sonnia Criid, and usually Leveticus don't need TNs or AP spends for Summoning.

 

It seems like a Summoning cap might be the right way to go, rather than trying to increase each kind of summoning with a different cost and balance those. (Also, some of the best summoners also have some kind of card-control scheme to keep them in good cards, so increasing the TN would only slow them down slightly.)

 

One suggestion I heard from a Resser player was some sort of model limit. Maybe something like "You can't summon more models than you started with" or "your max models is your starting models +1". That way, Summoners could restore losses and even add one model, but couldn't overrun the board.

 

Do you think that a model cap or SS cost cap would help?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm not sure overall its really possible to just change summoning and bring balance to low ss games. I remember last edition, low ss games at the 20-25 mark were dominated by combat masters. Combat masters disproportionately had victories in the games I saw and participated in, mainly because of how speed and killing really dominated last edition.

I'm not arguing that summoning may or may not be unbalanced at low ss, but I would argue that if you are trying to rebalance low level games I think its going to take a more holistic approach as all that's going to happen if you cuddle summoning is that its going to move the goal post and make something else the most powerful.

I'm interested in how this turns out however.

[SpiralngCadavr]

I think that something along the lines of a 1SS or 2-card tax in addition to any other requirements could limit stuff a lot in small games. I'd avoid a hard cap, since I think it's overly limiting, given that some pieces really rely on summons for doing what they do.

[Cats Laughing]

Given that there are quite a few different ways to summon (not all are TN based), it's hard to have some blanket rule in place.  Additionally, I think some summons are important enough to a master where a blanket cuddle would unfairly hit that master.

 

For instance, I think it would be reasonable to see a TN increase for Molly, Kirai, & Nicodem in small points games.  A similar change might work for the Dreamer, but in his case I wonder if that TN increase should not apply to Daydream/Alp summoning.  

 

I feel that it might be most appropriate to do individual 'small game house rules' for each of the summoners.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

This is far too difficult of a topic for a house-game. At 35SS I would say Henchmen led and be done with it.

With master led crews I would say both take summoners or neither take summoners.

House rules of any other kind would be unneccesarily excessive. I just don't think you could perfect a system.

[Math Mathonwy]

House rules of any other kind would be unneccesarily excessive. I just don't think you could perfect a system.

You already suggested two house rules neither of which I agree with.

Enforcing Henchmen into small games would make Starter boxes unplayable.

Enforcing both to use Summoners if one wants to suggests that the different Summoners are equal in small games.

Finally, I think that declaring it mission impossible is silly (even if you hadn't suggested two house rule solutions already) - the world is our oyster - of course it is possible to design rules that make Summoning balanced. It might be too convoluted and result, in effect, a new game, but just deciding arbitrarily that it is so without trying is silly, IMO.

So, my suggestions:

No summoning for the first two turns in under 40SS games.

Summons are way more powerful early in the game since then you get the full AP amount from the summoned models, the no-Interact prohibition is less important and you likely have more resources to put into Summoning (as opposed to using the High Cards for killing enemy models or saving your own).

Also, no Summoning from the death of enemy models.

This is there to limit Levy, Sonnia and McMourning mostly. The switch of an enemy model into a friendly model is super powerful in low SS games and all of those Masters can work just fine without that ability (and, in the case of McM and Levy, are really, really competitive in small games, actually).

[Kadeton]

Enforcing Henchmen into small games would make Starter boxes unplayable.

A lot of starter boxes are already unplayable. Further, I think the idea of Starter Box games can ruin the game for new players - since small games are so unbalanced, they assume that the game is poorly designed in general. Balancing the game at 50ss suggests to me that wherever possible, players should be encouraged to play at that level. Creating a new set of rules tweaks to balance the game at 35 is an interesting thought experiment, but I think players should be encouraged to build up their forces and play proper games very quickly.

Also, no Summoning from the death of enemy models.

This is there to limit Levy, Sonnia and McMourning mostly. The switch of an enemy model into a friendly model is super powerful in low SS games and all of those Masters can work just fine without that ability (and, in the case of McM and Levy, are really, really competitive in small games, actually).

On the other hand, it basically screws over Hamelin's main game mechanic.

My suggestions, based on the idea that 35ss games are essentially training games played with set boxes, would be:

Reduce the normal game length (the point at which you start flipping to see if the game continues) to the end of Turn 3 (that should push the more dedicated summoners to get moving on objectives rather than setting up a factory)

and/or

Allow summoners to only summon models from their crew box.

[Math Mathonwy]

A lot of starter boxes are already unplayable. Further, I think the idea of Starter Box games can ruin the game for new players - since small games are so unbalanced, they assume that the game is poorly designed in general. Balancing the game at 50ss suggests to me that wherever possible, players should be encouraged to play at that level. Creating a new set of rules tweaks to balance the game at 35 is an interesting thought experiment, but I think players should be encouraged to build up their forces and play proper games very quickly.

My best game this year was a 35SS game of almost starter boxes.

I do agree that the game is more balanced at 50SS - the starkest contrast isn't actually Summoning but rather in Schemes and Strategies - some Schemes are extremely difficult to pull off in small games. So yeah, people should be encouraged to move up to 45 or 50SS as soon as possible.

But they will still want to play starter games. That's just how it is. There is a report of a recent tournament that was at 35SS in the battle reports forum. People know that the game isn't balanced at that level but yet they play, for various reasons.

And for those situations, coming up with a suitable house rule for Summoning would be nice. It could be seen as an alt format like Hardcore. Sure, it won't ever be as balanced as "proper" games but it this particular problem (Summoning) probably can be helped somewhat.

On the other hand, it basically screws over Hamelin's main game mechanic.

Ah, yeah, I forgot Hamelin. OK, then, no Summoning from the death of enemy models (Malifaux Rats are an exception to this).

Allow summoners to only summon models from their crew box.

I believe this was actually our plan for our slow grow league if someone came with summoners.

[wizuriel]

What about trying something like you can never have more than (starting game cost)+5ss worth of models on the board?

This will limit you from over running your opponent early in the game while still letting summoners be summoners late game

[Rob Lo]

There's a few interesting ideas here that should be tested, I think. Many of my thoughts were along the lines of those already mentioned. What I'd be most interested in testing would be:

 

Summoning soulstone pool that increases over time, at 35 SS, 4 SS's per turn. Every summon deducts points from the pool. 

 

So turn 1, I could summon a 4ss model, or I could save them up, and summon a 6 SS model on turn 2 and have 2 stones left for future turns. It lets people bring in low power models early or save it up for a bigger model later, and keeps a cap on the total amount summoned. Maybe I save it up for a hanged, but I'm not seeing him til turn 3, where he will normally only have 5, 6 if not slow, ap to add to the normal course of the game.

 

The numbers might need to be tweaked slightly, but something in that general idea could work, I think. Maybe a specific master gets an extra stone or three in their pool to begin, or only gets +2 or 3 per turn.

 

I do find it... interesting? weird?.. that summoning at 35 is considered unbalanced (even by me, but not as much as others. I do play ressers though so that might be why), but add in one nekima or two death marshals and suddenly it's supposed to be fine. Feels like too fine of an edge on that balance point, or it's felt too keenly by those facing it, than what it really does.

[LunarSol]

I do agree that the game is more balanced at 50SS - the starkest contrast isn't actually Summoning but rather in Schemes and Strategies - some Schemes are extremely difficult to pull off in small games. So yeah, people should be encouraged to move up to 45 or 50SS as soon as possible.

 

 

This was what I was looking to add.  Summoning is unbalanced in low SS games, but Strategies and Schemes are a bigger issue in my experience.  I personally don't see any real value in playing below the recommended 50 for this game.  The difference in game time and model count is negligible; the difference in game quality is not.

 

I think the right way to make low SS games work is to adjust the scheme/strat pool for them.  I'd go as far to say its probably worthwhile to cut it down to a single strat and a standard pool of 5 schemes, perhaps 9 or so for some variety.  Maybe go as far as reducing the turn limit (which will have a more meaningful impact on playing a shorter game than reducing the SS count anyway) or board size.

[Fetid Strumpet]

If it works for your group then do hat makes the group work, but changing what is the strongest mechanic at low levels is just going to make something else the unbalanced strongest.

Its just the nature of low points games.

[rythos42]

I'm interested in this because I think that 35ss is still a very interesting game. You have barely enough to perform your schemes/strategies, you have to be very careful about what models you pick and how you use them. The game may be balanced at 50, but that doesn't mean I don't want to play other levels (and have them be a little more balanced).

[Hateful Darkblack]

I'm cautious about any anti-Summoning plan that hits different Summoners differently. It's possible but I suspect it's too hard to balance.

 

Rules I like and would consider so far:

• No summoning Turn One and Two.
• Cap on how much you can Summon. ("Summon only slightly above your starting". Start + 1 model or Start + 5ss or something.)
• Summon only from basic Crew box.

 

Summon only from Crew box would mean that Ramos couldn't summon Electrical Creations ever, and Widow Weaver couldn't Summon at all (and should just not buy that upgrade) but I suspect it would help calm the results.

 

These are worth trying! Thank you!

[Hateful Darkblack]

House rules of any other kind would be unneccesarily excessive. I just don't think you could perfect a system.

 

I don't think the system needs to be perfect to be valuable here. Just better than the current difficulties.

 

What I want from a Summoning house rule:

• Keeps Summoners useful and possible, just not overwhelming.
• Affects all kinds of Summoners, since there are like four or five different styles of Summoning in the game.
• Is a fairly simple rule that can be expressed in a few sentences.
• Doesn't render any model completely moot.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Another one I am considering:

 

Anyone who imposes a "No Summoning" rule on their own Crew gets an extra 5 Soulstones.

[Jimbobovalsocks]

I have a house rule that if anyone beats me more then 5 games in a row, then I wack them round the knees with a length of 2x4. This seems to work perfectly to balance the game out and so far, my worst losing streak has been 4 games which just proves how well it works.

 

P.S. You're welcome! Any time you need a sensible contribution to an important question, just ask. xxxxx

[Hateful Darkblack]

I have a house rule that if anyone beats me more then 5 games in a row, then I wack them round the knees with a length of 2x4. This seems to work perfectly to balance the game out and so far, my worst losing streak has been 4 games which just proves how well it works.

 

P.S. You're welcome! Any time you need a sensible contribution to an important question, just ask. xxxxx

 

Good house rule!  

 

Personally, I have a house rule that I wear greaves whenever I'm playing a Summoning Crew, though, so I don't know how that'll do.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I am thinking now of a game I played, where I played Nix in a Henchman-led 20ss game, with Summoning.

 

The game was quickly overrun with Malifaux Rats and I won without any effort. It was clearly a balance problem.

 

That game was Henchman-led, and I only summoned models from the Hamelin Crew box. So maybe other rules are needed!