Lilith Growth List?

[MasterDisaster]

Hey guys, fairly quick and simple one as the title suggests. 

 

I'm currently putting some thought into how to effectively run the Growth Mechanics for Lilith. What sort of models do you consider auto-include when trying to pull this off? Who do you run the upgrades with? What Upgrades do you run with Lilith herself? Which Totem, Henchmen and Enforcers do you take if any? etc...

 

I've got a few ideas myself but I'd like to hear what everybody else has tried and find out what failed, what's OK and what worked really well before I commit to this. This is my first real jump into Neverborn and I figured Lilith would be the best place to start and so I'm planning on using the Growth list idea for a Beginner Friendly Slow Grow League I've set up for next year. I figured it could be quite a fun way to play Lilith whilst sticking to the Nephilim theme. I like the idea of having my Tots grow into Young or Mature Nephilim throughout the course of a game. I've only recently picked her up and could do with some sound advice rather than my theoryfaux and mad ramblings.

 

So let's have it, how do you approach Nephilim parenthood?

[Adran]

There are 2 ways to grow, the Rapid growth upgrade, and the Black blood shamen, although he stops at young.

Nekema also can summon new tots.

The few times I've tried to run this sort of list, I've put the rapid growth upgrade on lileth, and kept the tots near her, so that she could pull in models for the pounce, and her kills can be used to grow.

It does come with the down side that whilst you are doing this, your tots aren't doing what they would normally do, dropping scheme markers and so forth.

 

I've seen a few tots grow,  but rarely see a young grow, so if you find this as well, you might find the Black blood shamen is plenty. Or you might set up 2 different areas of growth.

[Mastershake]

Lilith

-Beckon Malifaux

-Rapid Growth

-Super Sword

Nekima

-True Mother

Cherub

6x Tots

 

 

The Tots sped turn 1 and part of 2 just messing around with Scheme markers and you use Tangle Shadows to pick off a few stragglers and turn tots into Young before you really get engaged with Beckon Malifaux's Forest to reduce reprisals.  Nekima with True Mother has a pass off range of 6" making her really versatile at growing tots or Young since she can also be 3" away from the target with her sword.  The list mostly tries to plant schemes and plays keep away until you've swung the model and activation count hard enough you can just go to town.  The Cherub helps with this a lot since he can buff scheme placement or mess up enemy positioning with his bow (Slow and a 5" Push built in is really BS and great for locking down a lot of beatsticks).

[StuffedKiwi]

Like with all Malifaux questions, the answer is 'depends on the strat and schemes.' To me, at least. I've had some success with a Nekima (True Mother), Shaman, Doppleganger (great for copying Pustule), and Grow (on Lilith or on a Mature or even once on Lilitu) in Reconnoiter games; Nekima is awesome at taking out low-point models, which there tends to be plenty off in Recon games, and newly summoned Tots are great at challenging for or holding quarters, as well as achieving schemes that need markers. I wouldn't recommend a grow list of Turf War or Reckoning, for instance. And as Joel Henry has said somewhere, running 'Grow' is often like trying to achieve a 3rd scheme as well as your strat and other two schemes -- it can be a distraction rather than a help. I also think that if you're new to Lilith/Neverborn, a grow list is perhaps not the best place to start -- there are enough tricky mechanisms and synergies to get your head around first. But I agree the idea of a grow list for a growth league is appealing. So if you're determined:

* It might be tempting to stick with Nephilim for thematic reasons, but Silurids and Waldgeists work really well with Lilith to achieve all sorts of schemes, so don't rule them out even if they don't seem to help with the 'grow' mechanic.

* Barbaros is way more durable than Nekima, so think about him for strats/schemes where that's going to be helpful.

* Juju is also often good with Lilith -- if you've got a couple of Silurids as well, he's very hard to deny full points for Bodygaurd, with his 'Eternal' upgrade, for instance.

* Even outside a grow list, Shaman is one of the few 'healing' options that Lilith crews have, which can be really useful.

* Tuco is worth a thought for a ranged-attack option and a deploy from the shadows option.

*Graves and Tannen can be great too, for denying Plant Explosive or Deliver a Messge areas (again, with Doppleganger potentially copying, though that gets quite AP-intensive).

[MasterDisaster]

Yeah, of course the exact setup of a crew is dependent on the objectives available. I tried a Grow list a couple of nights ago on Vassal using this list against Marcus

 

Lilith -- 6 Pool

 +Beckon Malifaux [1]

 +Rapid Growth [1]

 +Wicked Mistress [1]

 

Cherub [3]

Black Blood Shaman [7]

Mature Nephilim [11]

Nekima [13]

 +Obsidian Talons [1]

 +The True Mother [2]

Terror Tot [4]

Terror Tot [4]

 

Here's the Objectives

 

Reckoning

 

ALITS

Assassinate

Breakthrough

Entourage

Vendetta

 

By the end of turn 3 I'd summoned a Tot then grew it, grew an existing Tot into a Young and killed Marcus, Myranda, Jackalope a Raptor and a Slateridge Mauler. I found by having to kill to score VP the Growth was a bonus to achieving VP rather than a 3rd scheme. It was really fun. zFiend was my opponent and he was struck down by pretty piss poor luck on the draw but he conceded end of Turn 3 with only Cojo and a Blessed of December left where as I'd lost nothing and was 2 VP up on Reckoning. I'd revealed Entourage and Breakthrough and by this point I was in a clear position to bag full points for both so we called it 9-0 because I could have easily grabbed an extra point from Reckoning as well. 

 

Basically what I am hearing is "GO BUY ZORAIDA AND WALDGEISTS!"   which to be fair is on my to do list. I'm sticking primarily with Nephilim for my League but as I expand on the Lilith crew afterwards I'll be adding Waldgeists, Silurid and JuJu into the mix. Thankyfully I've got Lynch so I've already got Tannen and Graves who seem like a great fit with Lilith and can add some potential to the Growth list here and there. Tuco and the Shaman are awesome models and luckily a friend of mine sold his Lilith stiff a while ago but kept Tuco and the Shaman, he has offered to give them to me so yeah, they are auto-include! Tuco's ranged fire power seems to be great for adding something people wont expect from a Neverborn crew and the BB Shaman is just the tits! Finally the Doppelganger, I can see so many uses for that thing, zFiend suggested giving it On Dreaming Wings to give it flight then team it up with Nekima for 2x the fun 

 

Thanks for the advice guys. Keep it coming!

[Mastershake]

Like with all Malifaux questions, the answer is 'depends on the strat and schemes.' To me, at least. I've had some success with a Nekima (True Mother), Shaman, Doppleganger (great for copying Pustule), and Grow (on Lilith or on a Mature or even once on Lilitu) in Reconnoiter games; Nekima is awesome at taking out low-point models, which there tends to be plenty off in Recon games, and newly summoned Tots are great at challenging for or holding quarters, as well as achieving schemes that need markers. I wouldn't recommend a grow list of Turf War or Reckoning, for instance. And as Joel Henry has said somewhere, running 'Grow' is often like trying to achieve a 3rd scheme as well as your strat and other two schemes -- it can be a distraction rather than a help. I also think that if you're new to Lilith/Neverborn, a grow list is perhaps not the best place to start -- there are enough tricky mechanisms and synergies to get your head around first. But I agree the idea of a grow list for a growth league is appealing. So if you're determined:

* It might be tempting to stick with Nephilim for thematic reasons, but Silurids and Waldgeists work really well with Lilith to achieve all sorts of schemes, so don't rule them out even if they don't seem to help with the 'grow' mechanic.

* Barbaros is way more durable than Nekima, so think about him for strats/schemes where that's going to be helpful.

* Juju is also often good with Lilith -- if you've got a couple of Silurids as well, he's very hard to deny full points for Bodygaurd, with his 'Eternal' upgrade, for instance.

* Even outside a grow list, Shaman is one of the few 'healing' options that Lilith crews have, which can be really useful.

* Tuco is worth a thought for a ranged-attack option and a deploy from the shadows option.

*Graves and Tannen can be great too, for denying Plant Explosive or Deliver a Messge areas (again, with Doppleganger potentially copying, though that gets quite AP-intensive).

 

So my experiences with the above list tend to disagree pretty heavily with the "Like a third scheme".  Growing doesn't burn activations or AP you wouldn't already be spending unless you're trying to not kill models.  In 1.5e it basically required taking turn 1 off, but in 2e all it boils down to is upgrading your models for doing what you'd do already.  The biggest change to this is Nekima with True Mother.  3" melee range with a 6" radius to pass off kills (that doesn't require LoS) is really generous to a degree where you'd almost have to try to not have a Tot/Young in the range.  It's also why if you're looking at growing, she's about as close as you can get to an auto-include, otherwise the criteria are substantially harder to meet.  It also makes Nekima 15ss cost more palatable when you realize her killing an enemy also upgraded your model (and in the process removed all damage and conditions) and gave you a new activation.  In fact turning an enemy model into more activations for your crew is what can make a good grow list overwhelming as 2-3 kills can dramatically swing the activations in your favor.

 

As far as strats and schemes:

-the above list has done pretty well in everything but turf war.  Turf War hamstrings a lot of the mobility Lilith brings to the table to the degree where it's much harder to make it work (it can and does, but Turf War usually incurs the highest casualties for the crew).  It's odd how often people look at 9 models and think "so it's not reckoning?".  It is reckoning, but the point of the list is denying your opponent access to models until you'll overwhelm them.  If they're reliably picking off two tots a turn you probably need to re-examine what you're doing.  The most reckoning points the list has given up so far is two and it's gotten max points multiple times.   Recon is probably the favorite since it's hard to get reckon points without splitting your force and Lilith and Nekima can eat half an army by themselves.  Stake a claim is actually really favorable since you can turn 2 markers turn 1 (you can turn all 4, but you need a decent hand) meaning you're now done interacting for the game, but you're opponent likely isn't which can be a hard edge to get past.

 

-Schemes it also tends to be pretty good with.  The ones I don't like seeing are Entourage, Bodyguard and Vendetta.  The list just lacks good targets for Entourage or Bodyguard since both Lilith and Nekima have to be doing work for at least the first three turns increasing the likelihood they'll be dropped by something.  The list also completely lacks a good Vendetta target since Tots don't exactly get a lot of kills on their own and there's only one (maybe two can't recall right off hand) models that equal Nekima's SS cost.  On the other hand, Power Ritual, Protect Territory, Plant Evidence and Breakthrough are difficult to not achieve.  The Tots just being able to move 20" in one activation with unimpeded just make them so good for throwing out schemes even if the scheme needs to be in your opponents DZ and having one or two take the game off to run around the table hasn't been enough of a detriment for me to care.  Make them Suffer is also money given that what Lilith and Nekima are trying to do for the first two turns at least is kill Minions to get the Young on the table.  Deliver a Message and Plant Explosives reuqire some advance planning but the combination of Tots and Cherub make both of those fairly easily attainable as well.  Take Prisoner has also been a good choice every time I've taken it, again the stupid speed on Tots means having one hover somewhere in the same zip code as the target is pretty trivial, so you just have to find a model you don't feel like killing and wait till turn 5.

 

Also, as an edit to the above list, Nekima should have Mimics Blessing as well.

[4thstringer]

I like grow in turf war/extraction as well.  Since there is often a big fight in a small area, putting tots in there where they count towards the strat, where their black blood can hurt multiple other models, and where they can grow if your killers get the job done.   This is multiplied if you are using BBS to do some good pulse damage in that scrum as well.

[Adran]

The 3rd scheme comment is how you are having to modify your play to fit it. The common place for a terror tot is sprinted down the table to drop scheme markers/claim areas. If you are needing them near certain models, then you are not using them to breakthrough (etc) on turn 2. This isn;t true for everyones play style, and there are a lot of people who wouldn't need to change what they do to get grow oppitunities. 

 

Personally, I'm not sure what I would be doiong with tots for the first couple of turns whilst waiitng to turn them into young. So for me the AP cost I'm wasting having brought these fabusously fast models which I've then tied down to an area to turn into something else means that this is a niche play style. Give me a strat and scheme pool that means I can use the tots in the first few turns, and still keep them close enough to grow  when I have the chance, and irs well worth it, but with out those then I'd have done better to just start with 2 young ratehr than 3 tots.

[Mastershake]

The 3rd scheme comment is how you are having to modify your play to fit it. The common place for a terror tot is sprinted down the table to drop scheme markers/claim areas. If you are needing them near certain models, then you are not using them to breakthrough (etc) on turn 2. This isn;t true for everyones play style, and there are a lot of people who wouldn't need to change what they do to get grow oppitunities. 

 

Personally, I'm not sure what I would be doiong with tots for the first couple of turns whilst waiitng to turn them into young. So for me the AP cost I'm wasting having brought these fabusously fast models which I've then tied down to an area to turn into something else means that this is a niche play style. Give me a strat and scheme pool that means I can use the tots in the first few turns, and still keep them close enough to grow  when I have the chance, and irs well worth it, but with out those then I'd have done better to just start with 2 young ratehr than 3 tots.

 

I find I like having a few models without something pressing to do especially if they're cheap.  Being able to delay committing turn 2 can be a game winner especially when you're crew is more mobile than most opposition.  You can also start cranking out Young much faster than most players anticipate.  Tangle Shadows is a hell of a drug that allows you to easily take out any isolated models in the other crew like their scheme runners (Nekima easily two shots a Silurid or Necropunk).  

 

Best example was a game I had against another Neverborn Player.  He Leaped a Silurid, walked it to the centerline, then dropped a scheme marker for Line in the Sand.  I moved the Cherub near the area, Tangle Shadowed off my own tot in the region to put Nekima there, then she walked up, killed it, made another tot into a Young and (0) actioned to destroy the scheme marker (Lilith also dropped her forest to cut LoS to Nekima).    Now my opponent's scheme is still at 0, he's down a 7ss model, I'm up 2ss and still have the Young to activate and he still has no good access to my crew.

 

I'm not saying the list is for everyone, but it's easy to underestimate both how hard it can be to stop it from getting VPs and how much violence it can throw out (at least 4 crews have been outright tabled).  Just having 9 activations and still being able to easily destroy 2-3 models a turn in addition to that act giving you more activations swings the fight really hard.  I guess the takeaway is "don't knock it till you tried it".  I've been trying out various Lilith lists for a while and this one has been the best performer all around.

[Patzer]

I will at some point try a Grow list. As Adran pointed out, I am also a bit sceptic about keeping my Tots nearby when they could be running schemes. However, Mastershake are quite on point when stating that Tots are fast enough to spare a turn before they get going. I find that teaming up Lilith, and/or Nekima with a couple of Young should be a lot easier to Grow.

[MasterDisaster]

I've had a lot of fun with my limited experience with Grow lists. My first attempt went horribly as zFiend decimated my crew with Langston and Joss on Vassal but later attempts at the list have been fairly successful. I tend to keep 1 Tot nearby to Grow whilst others do the objectives. If they complete an objective for me they can come back and be rewarded with a Grow but if not then they keep going and I don't bother with them, they are punished and stay Terror Tots all game long. I rule my Nephilim family with an iron fist, only the well behaved children get my love and affection 

[Clyde_Davis]

I've had some success with the following list -

 

Lilith (7SS Cache, Beckon Malifaux, Living Blade, Rapid Growth)

Nekima (The True Mother)

Cherub

Black Blood Shaman

Young Nephilim

Terror Tot

Terror Tot

Terror Tot

 

Basically, I keep Lilith and Nekima alongside one another with the Young not too far away (in range of 'Feast, My Darling'). Using 'Tangle Shadows' I whip in an Enforcer into Lilith and Nekima's range. Nekima then goes to town and takes out that poor fated minion, thereby growing the Young into a Mature.

 

For the remainder of the game, I run Lilith and Nekima in tandem, leaving a trail of corpse markers behind them - so that my BB Shaman can go around discarding the markers and summon Terror Tots.   

[Patzer]

For the remainder of the game, I run Lilith and Nekima in tandem, leaving a trail of corpse markers behind them - so that my BB Shaman can go around discarding the markers and summon Terror Tots.   

The BBS can only summon Young of Tots by discarding a corpse marker. They cannot summon Tots from corpse markers.

[Clyde_Davis]

Yeah, that's what I meant... 

[MasterDisaster]

That's an interesting list. It looks fairly similar to the list I used against Marcus which is higher in the thread. I'll have to bear that in mind the next time I try a Grow list. 

[PositronMike]

Has anyone tried the twins in a grow list? I was thinking that lilitu could have the grow upgrade and you could use her lure ability to pull low wound models into punch range for the tots to grow them. Lelu would allow lilitu to pounce as well which would help reduce some higher would models down to grow from.

[Dirial]

Lelu is usually considered sub-par. I have not seen him on the table to confirm that, but I don't think anyone has had great success with the pair in a growth list. Simply because if someone had reported that, he wouldn't be so maligned by most of the Neverborn players.

[Nical]

Has anyone tried the twins in a grow list? I was thinking that lilitu could have the grow upgrade and you could use her lure ability to pull low wound models into punch range for the tots to grow them. Lelu would allow lilitu to pounce as well which would help reduce some higher would models down to grow from.

 

I think Tuco is better as babysitter. Because Rapid Growth doesn't need to kill Opponents in Melee.  

And I think Lelu is better as Nightmare. Because Dreamer can summon him.  

[amanwing]

Lilith

-Beckon Malifaux

-Rapid Growth

-Super Sword

Nekima

-True Mother

Cherub

6x Tots

 

 

The Tots sped turn 1 and part of 2 just messing around with Scheme markers and you use Tangle Shadows to pick off a few stragglers and turn tots into Young before you really get engaged with Beckon Malifaux's Forest to reduce reprisals.  Nekima with True Mother has a pass off range of 6" making her really versatile at growing tots or Young since she can also be 3" away from the target with her sword.  The list mostly tries to plant schemes and plays keep away until you've swung the model and activation count hard enough you can just go to town.  The Cherub helps with this a lot since he can buff scheme placement or mess up enemy positioning with his bow (Slow and a 5" Push built in is really BS and great for locking down a lot of beatsticks).

Wouldn't the enemy just focus on nekima and killer her by all means as fast as possible?

Edited December 8, 2015 by amanwing

[Ludvig]

Lilith

-Beckon Malifaux

-Rapid Growth

-Super Sword

Nekima

-True Mother

Cherub

6x Tots

 

 

The Tots sped turn 1 and part of 2 just messing around with Scheme markers and you use Tangle Shadows to pick off a few stragglers and turn tots into Young before you really get engaged with Beckon Malifaux's Forest to reduce reprisals.  Nekima with True Mother has a pass off range of 6" making her really versatile at growing tots or Young since she can also be 3" away from the target with her sword.  The list mostly tries to plant schemes and plays keep away until you've swung the model and activation count hard enough you can just go to town.  The Cherub helps with this a lot since he can buff scheme placement or mess up enemy positioning with his bow (Slow and a 5" Push built in is really BS and great for locking down a lot of beatsticks).

Wouldn't the enemy just focus on nekima and killer her by all means as fast as possible?

Yes. The trick is to use Lilith's tangle shadows and tree markers to more or less always block LoS and pull out enemies one at a time. That being said, growth lists don't rate that high as competitive lists as far as I've heard.

[feagaur]

I'm fairly new myself but have been running the following grow list for a couple of months now and have had some success. I've tended not to play it as a 'must get mature nephs out at all cost' and have still managed to get at least one every game. I even managed two in one game. My list is

Lilith with Beckon Malifuax, Bring the blood and Wicked mistress  - 3SS

Primordial Magic                                                                             - 2SS

Nekima with True Mother                                                                - 15SS

Mr Graves with Rapid Growth                                                         - 9SS

2 Terror Tots                                                                                    - 8SS

2 Young Nephilim                                                                            - 12SS

Which leaves a SS for the pool giving her a cache of 5.

 

The Tots tend to zoom up the board and drop scheme markers whilst the others mop up models one at a time. Or if possible get a few at time with black blood getting a few tots out of it.

[Eclipse]

I'm fairly new myself but have been running the following grow list for a couple of months now and have had some success. I've tended not to play it as a 'must get mature nephs out at all cost' and have still managed to get at least one every game. I even managed two in one game. My list is

Lilith with Beckon Malifuax, Bring the blood and Wicked mistress  - 3SS

Primordial Magic                                                                             - 2SS

Nekima with True Mother                                                                - 15SS

Mr Graves with Rapid Growth                                                         - 9SS

2 Terror Tots                                                                                    - 8SS

2 Young Nephilim                                                                            - 12SS

Which leaves a SS for the pool giving her a cache of 5.

 

The Tots tend to zoom up the board and drop scheme markers whilst the others mop up models one at a time. Or if possible get a few at time with black blood getting a few tots out of it.

I know this is a theme list and sorry for butting in Still, I would swap those two Young ones for a Tot and the Doppelganger. Also, Angel Eyes or Tuco are decent ranged Nephilim options.

[tunagami]

I played this a number of times (at 35) with good grow success (even won a tournament with it ;-)... not any 'big boy' meta though):

Lilith (5 cache)
* Beckon Malifaux
* Rapid Growth
Barbaros
* Obsidian Talons
Cherub
Young Nephilim
3 x Terror Tots

I didn't go for the big sword and didn't play for the grow. That said, I took the opportunities when I could. I also found using obsidian talons so that the tots could even kill something from time to time was quite helpful. On the tournament day I grew on average a young per game.

But the reason I really won with the list is I played cagey and defensively. Not because the grow mechanic helped (although it did contribute).

It is fun to play and I have in mind what I would play at 50SS too, but this is just one of the many colors of Lilith that is fun to play :-D

 

 

Edited December 8, 2015 by tunagami
formatting :(

[Ludvig]

I also like the talons, especially if ai go grow, sometimes it surprises people.

[Mutter]

How many tots, young and mature would one need to bring when playing a 'grow' list? How many of those are usually grown in a game? Seems like a lot of models that might be needed?