Premeasuring, and premoving

[Sevorin]

 So in my game with Razhem, something came up that I never saw.

 

 Raz believed that premeasuring in the game also allowed for you to move you model, premeasure/check LoS, etc, then move it back to where it began without ever having activated that model.

 

 Example: McMourning premeasures distances by walking 15" then measuring abilities, then going back where he began (all without ever activating).

 

 The way I understood premeasure was that you could measure at anytime from a model, from where it is. Premeasuring is not the same as "premoving" (to me, anyhow). He said this is how it was played.

 

 

 Have I been playing it wrong?

[Justin]

You may measure from where your model is to any other point and check LoS from where it is to any other point. That's all the rules officially allow.

[Malsqueek]

That's a bit shady. I would totally allow measuring and dropping a token to check LOS, but the probably of returning the model to the wrong spot leads me to dislike actually moving the model until it moves.

[asrian]

I would say no. You pre-measure from where your model starts. That just sounds cheeky to me moving it up, potentially multiple times, to try and get the perfect position for each model. Measure it, if it looks good, move/fire/whatever. If it doesn't, don't touch it. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

As long as a player wasnt being obnoxious about it and taking 10min to figure out his move, the danger is there I find, I personally wouldn't have an issue with it.

[Sevorin]

 The player was not being obnoxious at all. He just assumed that was part of the game. 

 

 But at that point I have to ask myself, if you can premeasure AND premove, then all risk due to moving, and making a decision is gone (in fact, if I had used this same tactic, I wouldn't have lost Jacob on T3).

 

And since Justin posted you can only premeasure, the question is answered and complete. Thanks, Justin.

[The Godlyness]

Isn't the the point of pre-measuring lol. To remove the guessing game of am I in range or am I not?

I haven't cared when it's happened in vassal. Doubt I will care if it happens in real games.

If they to measure the furthest point put their finger down then measure from there no problem at all. I would rather have my opponent play strategically and with limited guessing. That way it comes down to luck and player skill not hey your 3mm out of range since you measured wrong due to the angle of the light and how tall you are reaching over the board. But just my opinion.

[Math Mathonwy]

But at that point I have to ask myself, if you can premeasure AND premove, then all risk due to moving, and making a decision is gone (in fact, if I had used this same tactic, I wouldn't have lost Jacob on T3).

Are you supposed to have some sort of a risk to measuring? That you might measure incorrectly and this is somehow an intended thing? That's a really weird thought to me.

We have been dropping a spare base if the move is somehow really tricky. Moving back and forth is of course a bad idea since getting the mini back to where it was without a marker of some sort is difficult.

[Hateful Darkblack]

In Vassal, sometimes the only way to premeasure is movement.

 

I've always been okay with people moving stuff and moving it back, especially in Vassal but also on the table. It's pretty much synonymous with pre-measuring. If they're being too slow about it, that's a different problem.

[Sevorin]

Are you supposed to have some sort of a risk to measuring? That you might measure incorrectly and this is somehow an intended thing? That's a really weird thought to me.

We have been dropping a spare base if the move is somehow really tricky. Moving back and forth is of course a bad idea since getting the mini back to where it was without a marker of some sort is difficult.

No, not a risk to measuring, but the risk in making the decision to move. Once a move is made, an AP is spent and then you can measure again.

 

 As Justin explained, you measure from the base of the mini, or apparently from base of mini to point A, then from point A to point B (which is a new one for me), etc. Anything else is actually outside of the rules, and at that point we are making our own rules. Moving a model 2 or 3x, then deciding its not going to work out for you, and activating another model instead is definitely outside the rules, and imo, really takes any small amount of risk for movement decision making out of the game.

 

 As I said, if I had played that way, then I wouldn't have lost Jacob turn 3 (cause I miscalculated the AP I needed to get him there, and if I premoved I would have realized, "Oh, I'm not going to get that off, I'll just move back").

 

 Just my opinion, and apparently (now I know for sure) the rule of premeasuring.

 

Let me be clear: He wasn't being unsportsman like; It was the first time I had ever seen it done, and I felt it was against the rules so I voiced that. I then came here to clarify. He wasn't being shady, or cheeky or anything.

[solkan]

I think being abe to measure distances and check line of sight from where your model currently is to anywhere on the table is a compromise position between "No premeasuring at all, learn how to estimate distances" and "Premeasure everything."  You get most of the benefits of pre-measuring--no surprises about abilities being out of range, or how far you have to go to get somewhere--without risking problems with people measuring every silly thing on the table.

 

On the other hand, if you're doing your movement incrementally, you should be okay most of the time.   "I'm going to move two inches forward (or move over to there).  Am I in range yet?  Okay, I've got a corner to go around, but I remember my geometry numbers so that should be okay.  Am I in range yet?  Okay, good."

 

Estimating triangles when you can measure two sides of them normally works out pretty well.  And on a sufficiently generous day, you'd probably be able to talk me into letting you check a distance if you put down a marker or blank base to indicate where you wanted to go.       Especially if it's going to save someone breaking out their calculator and applying geometric theorems. 

 

But repeatedly doing take-backs on your model's movement gets annoying, because people end up losing track of where the thing started from and invariably "accidentally" gaining inches of "free" movement. 

[Sevorin]

Actually, re-examining this, if it's legal to measure from the base to point A, then measure from point A to point B, and point B to C, and so on, at that point it doesn't really matter if you are moving the model or not. 

 

 This concept is utterly alien to me. I was OK with premeasuring, but this seems to take premeasuring to a whole new level. I really can now move and double move my models to find the perfect spot before I make a decision?

[fengor]

In the games i played it was generally considered ok, to measure as much as you like. That is from the base of the model to point a from point a to b and so on. if it is unclear tokens have been used to simulate the placement of the model after move. But if you move the model it has been moved. Kinda like the rule in chess, if you pickup a piece, you move that piece.

 

I don't have a problem with this as long people don't obviously play for time

[Kadeton]

I can't see a practical distinction between pre-measuring and pre-moving other than the risk of not placing the model back where it started. Pre-measuring surely allows you to plan out all the relevant actions and ranges involved in your turn? I can't see any room for making mistakes of judgement (not enough AP, etc) in either method.

 

The risk of mis-placing the model means I would never actually move the model to do this, but I can't see any reason why you would ever need to.

[Malsqueek]

Estimating triangles when you can measure two sides of them normally works out pretty well.  And on a sufficiently generous day, you'd probably be able to talk me into letting you check a distance if you put down a marker or blank base to indicate where you wanted to go.       Especially if it's going to save someone breaking out their calculator and applying geometric theorems. 

 

I tend to go by the old "statement of intent" standard. If you think your movement is taking a bit of a risk, but you are fairly sure you are in, just say so and I tend to be generous up to about a quarter inch.

 

You decided to hang your bananas out in the wind to get a shot off, and wound up an eighth inch short because of the angle you moved? Toss a card. I know you intended to shoot me, so let's have at.

 

When you start fidgeting with arrays of movements to squeak the most advantageous quarter inch out of a move you slow the game down. Declare intent, move as best as you are able with reasonable expediency, and be gracious when your opponent is really close. Makes for more enjoyable games, and wins you "favorite opponent" trophies at tournaments.

[Sevorin]

Can I get a pg # reference to support the rule where you can premeasure from a one point to another (out side of measuring from models), like the part after you measure from a model to point A, and then measure from point A to point B?

[Ausplosions]

We have just said that the model can't be moved, but you can measure out all the ranges for the actions and movement you wish to take. Apparently Justin has a different idea.

So we can only premeasure from model to point A, not model to point A, point A to point B, C, D, etc...

[Sevorin]

You may measure from where your model is to any other point and check LoS from where it is to any other point. That's all the rules officially allow.

 Forgive me if I misunderstood this, but isn't that what he is saying. You can measure from model to any other point, and check LoS (which is also a measurement) from where it (that point) is to any other point?

 

 Isn't that from point A, to point B in my earlier statement, or am I just not getting it?

[Bengt]

The rules (p24) says you can measure distances at any time. Nowhere does it say that one end of the distance has to be anchored at a model. My impression of Justin's statement is that it is about whether you are allowed to temporary move models, not whether you can measure how wide a gap is or something.

[Csonti]

The rules (p24) says you can measure distances at any time. Nowhere does it say that one end of the distance has to be anchored at a model. My impression of Justin's statement is that it is about whether you are allowed to temporary move models, not whether you can measure how wide a gap is or something.

Yeah, I also can't read out from the rules that you can't measure the range between point A and B. And probably Justin didn't want to say that with his answer either.

[DeleteAccount]

I'm the offending premover XD

 

What we usually do in our tables is put spare models for the shady sprints we sometimes may need to check if there is somewhere we can or cannot reach, in Vassal I tend to not to bother since with undo it should be placed where it originally was perfectly, though it's still better to use a token in case the undo button does the fritz. Basically, I always understood premeasuring as "you should never really fail anything because you estimated range incorrectly unless you were careless", which still happens quite a bit to me when I move with overconfidence. But yeah, I never saw the point of having a master move, then saying "nope, I don't reach for the charge, oh well, have to do something else with a wasted AP" because I always assumed that allowing premeasuring was to avoid those situations (and reduce heavily debate with your opponent by preagreeing of something is in range/distance/LoS what have you before committing and turning it into a more intense debate with no backsies).

 

Anyway, it's one thing how my group and me play it and another how it's supposed to be played. I just want to play the official way, so I'm a bit like Sevorin, does Justin mean that premeasuring is basically every model has a control range like in warmachine of infinite inches but that's it or I can measure from every point of the table which means I can simulate pretty much any movement related scenario anyway?

[Myyrä]

Justin's exact wording doesn't matter in the least before it's in the FAQ and I seriously doubt this ever going to make it there.

Rulebook gives you permission to measure distances. It doesn't give you permission to move your model, when you are not actually moving it.

[DeleteAccount]

Justin's exact wording doesn't matter in the least before it's in the FAQ and I seriously doubt this ever going to make it there.

Rulebook gives you permission to measure distances. It doesn't give you permission to move your model, when you are not actually moving it.

OK, I'll make this very clear, I do NOT move and then say "oh, I don't reach" and move it back to where I think it was.

 

In Vassal, I move to where I intend and then undo to my original point where the base reference is not lost and is quite a bit more precise than me fudging around with the ruler and tokens for a while.

 

In table games I do NOT move the model, I place a separate model or token to simulate the rest of the moves as well as my fellow players.

 

The moment I have no way of putting the model in it's "original position" the model is 100% commited no matter what or how badly I planned (classic fiddling with the ruler that bumps the model down and kills all the point of the measure).

[Kogan Style]

That's not how the first post reads but thank you for clearing that up.

We have always played it the way Justin statement intends (at least, how we read it - you may measure from the point of the model to the point you want to check, but only for the Action you are currently using) so we never map out an entire activation in advance. 

We do allow multiple checks for the first AP of any model, but once you decide which model you activate, that is the one you carry on with, even if later actions prove to be out of range. We like the element of risk

[Tuttleboy]

Oft times all you nneed to do is measure a move, put your finger in that spot and then measure from there. If it looks like it's going to be iffy, its time to get out a stunt base and use it.

[baskinders]

My group measures anything at anytime from anywhere on the table to anywhere else.

For instance, in my turn I might measure the distance between two enemy models to see if I'll catch them with a blast, measure the distance between a gap in terrain to see if I can fit a base through it, measure the distance from cover to an enemy to see if they benefit, then measure out multiple moves and ranges from several points of the move. Then I activate.

Every measurement I tell my opponent the distance and while I'm doing that, they can measure anything they like also.

All of this takes very little time in our games and is one of he greatest things about this version for 2 reasons. It actually reduces the length of time it takes to play our games because several of our group suffer from analysis paralysis when there's a line ball call to make, now hey don't have to make line ball calls on distances. Secondly it stops arguments because both players measure, agree and then make the moves, rather than making a move and then arguing over distances.

My personal opinion is that no limits on measurement is great for the game.