(Sarcasm) Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Hi all, I'm very new here so don't know much lore although I'm reading the chronicles. This question isn't so much to do with how the masters got their avatar status but as to whether or not their avatar form is temporary in the malifaux world (I know they 'transform' in-game tabletop-wise). For instance, Seamus has a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde thing going on but can he switch back and forth? This, along with avatars like pandora, Sonnia, Justice, Mcmourning (could leave his baby at home) even Rasputina jumping out of her golem seem more plausable than say Nicodem or Marcus going back. I also play Warmachine which has a similar mechanic in which a warcaster 'goes epic' by progressing in their story somehow (getting a new weapon/character shaping experience/dying etc.) but often these changes aren't physical and so it's plausable for a character to go through periods using their new weapons but being able to switch back. TL;DR: Ask whether or not Masters can transition back and forth between avatar form because of the continuity issues that could arise when playing a newer master who, during the game, becomes an avatar whilst the opposing, possibly older master, has not become an avatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Sarcasm) Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Hi all, I'm very new here so don't know much lore although I'm reading the chronicles. This question isn't so much to do with how the masters got their avatar status but as to whether or not their avatar form is temporary in the malifaux world (I know they 'transform' in-game tabletop-wise). For instance, Seamus has a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde thing going on but can he switch back and forth? This, along with avatars like pandora, Sonnia, Justice, Mcmourning (could leave his baby at home) even Rasputina jumping out of her golem seem more plausable than say Nicodem or Marcus going back. I also play Warmachine which has a similar mechanic in which a warcaster 'goes epic' by progressing in their story somehow (getting a new weapon/character shaping experience/dying etc.) but often these changes aren't physical and so it's plausable for a character to go through periods using their new weapons but being able to switch back. TL;DR: Ask whether or not Masters can transition back and forth between avatar form because of the continuity issues that could arise when playing a newer master who, during the game, becomes an avatar whilst the opposing, possibly older master, has not become an avatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carasz Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Avatars were introduced in the third book, both rules and fluff wise. Fluff wise, there was an "event", which during it all masters went into their avatar form at the same time. When the event ended, they all reverted. It had lasting effects on them though. I've not read all fluff available (but most of it) and I can't recall another time where it is mentioned that any master goes into avatar. It was only during the event. But I'm guessing the event unlocked the potential to go into avatar form. The fourth book was mainly about Ten Thunders and the M2E book didn't really have that much fluff, so it might just be that they haven't found space for more stories about avatar forms. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it has been a while since I read the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carasz Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Avatars were introduced in the third book, both rules and fluff wise. Fluff wise, there was an "event", which during it all masters went into their avatar form at the same time. When the event ended, they all reverted. It had lasting effects on them though. I've not read all fluff available (but most of it) and I can't recall another time where it is mentioned that any master goes into avatar. It was only during the event. But I'm guessing the event unlocked the potential to go into avatar form. The fourth book was mainly about Ten Thunders and the M2E book didn't really have that much fluff, so it might just be that they haven't found space for more stories about avatar forms. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it has been a while since I read the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymore65 Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 In the third book, every character has a short story where they go into Avatar form. They describe it as feeling a rush of power and hearing the voices of ancient powerful figures right before transforming. They are always in their normal forms before this. This shows they can switch to and from the Avatar forms more or less at will. If you have the third book, the stories next to each Avatar's rules heavily imply this. In other words, no, Avatars aren't really like the epic Warcasters in Warmachine, they're really something pretty different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymore65 Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 In the third book, every character has a short story where they go into Avatar form. They describe it as feeling a rush of power and hearing the voices of ancient powerful figures right before transforming. They are always in their normal forms before this. This shows they can switch to and from the Avatar forms more or less at will. If you have the third book, the stories next to each Avatar's rules heavily imply this. In other words, no, Avatars aren't really like the epic Warcasters in Warmachine, they're really something pretty different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 What's the issue? It's shapechanging or summoning pretty much isn't it? Both are things that are well established elsewhere in Malifaux. Just it's shapechanging or summoning at a higher level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 What's the issue? It's shapechanging or summoning pretty much isn't it? Both are things that are well established elsewhere in Malifaux. Just it's shapechanging or summoning at a higher level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Sarcasm) Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Thanks for the input guys, I have only read the chronicles so far so I'll have to get onto that third book. Just wanted to clarify because for example if Nicodem can't 'regrow' his leg, it seems like he wouldn't be able to 'un-skeletor' himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Sarcasm) Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Thanks for the input guys, I have only read the chronicles so far so I'll have to get onto that third book. Just wanted to clarify because for example if Nicodem can't 'regrow' his leg, it seems like he wouldn't be able to 'un-skeletor' himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 In the third book, every character has a short story where they go into Avatar form. They describe it as feeling a rush of power and hearing the voices of ancient powerful figures right before transforming. They are always in their normal forms before this. This shows they can switch to and from the Avatar forms more or less at will. If you have the third book, the stories next to each Avatar's rules heavily imply this. In other words, no, Avatars aren't really like the epic Warcasters in Warmachine, they're really something pretty different. I'm actually curious, how does Leveticus turn back to his pre-manifested form? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 I'm actually curious, how does Leveticus turn back to his pre-manifested form? IIRC, his avatar form is really just him on a horse....so... He mimics Mccabe, and dismounts his horse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 The best if clunky equivalent I can give you is from dragon ball z. Think of avatar as going super saiyan. Essentially they unleash a new level of power with new abilities but once that power is spent they revert back to more normal power levels. The avatars are manifestations of power. Book 3 goes into detail on some of the masters post event learning to harness this energy and go into this form at will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scirian Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 The real problem is avatars were changed fluff wise after book three. If you read book three, avatar states were in response to a leveling of power across the masters. When a master avatared (in game) they gained the attributes for the rest of the game. Similarly, in the fluff, masters would always stay in their avatar state. Perdita is constantly in communication with her mount, mcmourning crafts a monstrous beast, and zoraida achieves a state of youth. Spoilers: Levi dies, like for real, becomes a spectral remnant of himself that he brings together in his horseman persona. Now, that is not so in m2e. The avatar states are very much like a super Saiyan transformation where they can flit between the forms. I think, from a gameplay perspective, this is very good, it doesn't lock you into one state or the other. Fluff wise, I feel it is backing away from the pre established canon. It's easier for some: Perdita and somer can hop off their mounts, kirai and mcmourning stay more or less the same. The problem arises when you consider Levi/Seamus. They have full blown body transformations. Take it as you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curropepe Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 The real problem is avatars were changed fluff wise after book three. If you read book three, avatar states were in response to a leveling of power across the masters. When a master avatared (in game) they gained the attributes for the rest of the game. Similarly, in the fluff, masters would always stay in their avatar state. Perdita is constantly in communication with her mount, mcmourning crafts a monstrous beast, and zoraida achieves a state of youth. Spoilers: Levi dies, like for real, becomes a spectral remnant of himself that he brings together in his horseman persona. Now, that is not so in m2e. The avatar states are very much like a super Saiyan transformation where they can flit between the forms. I think, from a gameplay perspective, this is very good, it doesn't lock you into one state or the other. Fluff wise, I feel it is backing away from the pre established canon. It's easier for some: Perdita and somer can hop off their mounts, kirai and mcmourning stay more or less the same. The problem arises when you consider Levi/Seamus. They have full blown body transformations. Take it as you will. IIRC, according to the M2E rulebook, Avatars, when they manifest, stay that way until the end of the encounter, just like in first edition. Am I wrong? :S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 IIRC, according to the M2E rulebook, Avatars, when they manifest, stay that way until the end of the encounter, just like in first edition. Am I wrong? :S You are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalabar Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 The real problem is avatars were changed fluff wise after book three. If you read book three, avatar states were in response to a leveling of power across the masters. ... Similarly, in the fluff, masters would always stay in their avatar state. Perdita is constantly in communication with her mount, mcmourning crafts a monstrous beast, and zoraida achieves a state of youth. Spoilers: Levi dies, like for real, becomes a spectral remnant of himself that he brings together in his horseman persona. Now, that is not so in m2e. The avatar states are very much like a super Saiyan transformation where they can flit between the forms. I think, from a gameplay perspective, this is very good, it doesn't lock you into one state or the other. Fluff wise, I feel it is backing away from the pre established canon. It's easier for some: Perdita and somer can hop off their mounts, kirai and mcmourning stay more or less the same. The problem arises when you consider Levi/Seamus. They have full blown body transformations. Take it as you will. Sort of... Seamus is given specific exception as he's basically killed in the fluff, then Medusa's tear is put in the bullet wound to do... things. But you see him shift from normal Shamus to Hulk and back again in the fluff. Similar things occur to the other shape changers; Zorida explicitly doesn't tap into a Tyrant, but the nascent elements of Malifaux itself and shifts as a side effect. Ramos, Markus, Hoffman, and Nicodem all describe their time as almost a dream state. The Vickis appear to go crazy and may not actually remember what happened. Pandora and Candy explicitly don't. Raspy is in an active struggle with her own Tyrant, while Sonnia has to be pulled back from hers with help. Justice seems to be a shift in fighting style, probably more akin to a different stance, really. McMorning's state is just him testing out a big bruiser. Levi is special in that when he gets on a horse, he clearly gets a lot healthier, and if you look at his new artwork it seems to have stuck with him. I'm betting he still has to call upon the mantle, but the extra do-dads he's wearing are as much about reclaiming his prior immortality as controlling his ability for the fifth horse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulG Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 ...? What? Avatars could always go back and forth, unless you are postulating that Kirai knowingly spends eternity on a random riverbank just all unconscious-like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntereoVivo Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Isn't Kirai dead? I thought the last we saw of her was when she flipped (Avatar'd?) on Hamelin to get her ring back. Or did I miss something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker Barrows Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 She lived past that. She was in Book 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uktena Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Avatars were introduced in the third book, both rules and fluff wise. Fluff wise, there was an "event", which during it all masters went into their avatar form at the same time. When the event ended, they all reverted. It had lasting effects on them though. I've not read all fluff available (but most of it) and I can't recall another time where it is mentioned that any master goes into avatar. It was only during the event. But I'm guessing the event unlocked the potential to go into avatar form. The fourth book was mainly about Ten Thunders and the M2E book didn't really have that much fluff, so it might just be that they haven't found space for more stories about avatar forms. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it has been a while since I read the books. Colette performs her "new trick" as Cassandra puts it after The Event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Spoilers: Levi dies, like for real, becomes a spectral remnant of himself that he brings together in his horseman persona. Now, that is not so in m2e. Not entirely true. What happens, according to the fluff, is that rather than grabbing a new hollow waif to Possess and turn into a new body, his essence is embodied on the horseman, kept anchored by the horse. it is explicitly stated that it is the same mechanism of his immortality, and very similar to the tyrants. It would not be unreasonable for Levi to inhabit a new waif after he was done being ridery. The more interesting part of that was actually the suggestion that totems make masters weaker/more vulnerable to tyrants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 He mimics Mccabe, and dismounts his horse? Sorcery! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHero Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Let me put it simply... Super Saiyan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus Mcmold Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 Well, progress in the story also shows on Seamus appearance in M2E. He was a dandy hatter in the previous edition and now he's a creepy ally dweller and his hair turned black for some reason while he was in his Hulk mode. Open Spoiler He did die and came back again and was in a Looney Bin for some time after that. And also Molly did rebel against him, so that also ticks his ego slightly. There are big changes with a lot of characters... Rasputina, Zoraida, Leveticus, Perdita, Sonnia all have their mentality/aura/physique changed in a drastic way. It doesn't have to show on the miniature itself, but you know its there. Tara and Hoffman have been in a state of change from the moment they entered the stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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