Detailed Master Model Review and Epically Overlong Rant

[Helm]

So a post I was writing went long and now I have a blog. For anyone who's interested, it's a review and criticism of some of the new plastic Masters; specifically Lilith, Misaki and Lady Justice.

If anyone has feedback, I'd love to hear it; this is a post I've been wanting to make for a while, as I believe it's very relevant to how new players are going to see and ultimately experience the game.

http://helmmalifaux.blogspot.co.uk/

[Boshea]

I think you're just being really nit-picky since with the exception of Lady Justice I think all of those masters got far better models in plastic. Old Lilith's look doesn't scream vain authority, it screams "Tee-hee I'm a master". Its all personal opinion though. You may not like action-poses but for something as small scale as malifaux it makes the game look far more interesting when every model on the board isn't just standing around.

[Sybarite]

i'm not too fond of Lady Justice but i think all of the other plastic masters are great. Lilith is a big improvement in my eyes. The original was a bit too much for me. i never got why Lilith would dress in such a way. In the fluff she doesn't exactly seem like someone who'd try to seduce humans instead of just killing them (haven't read all of book 3 yet though). The new Lilith looks more serious and less flirty and i like that. She also got a cool coat! And i really didn't think the first "twirling my hair and looking flirty"-pose gave her a look of authority either so i'm with Boshea on that one.

[MEP]

I have to disagree with your Lady J critique. The old sculpt doesn't look strong at all. She looks like she's practically hanging from that sword, like it's a railing or something. And there's no way in hell she's drawing that sword from that angle. She'd have to dislocate her shoulder or something to pull that off. Her stance is more sultry than tough, and that ridiculous corset (thankfully finally gone) only communicates that her character has a completely impractical attitude toward battlefield attire, especially for a woman who appears to have an ample bust that would literally spill out of that outfit the moment she started running, jumping or swinging a sword.

The new Lady J is an improvement if only because she's finally wearing something a warrior could conceivably move in. The breast reduction she's received is a welcome change as well as the old sculpts always had a kind of puerile aesthetic, always with clear intent to draw the eye to her chest as much as possible (which I'm sure was done to communicate the strength of her character).

The stance of the new sculpt isn't perfect. Her right leg is greatly overextended and her center of gravity is a little too low (knee is bent too far, will take too much effort to rise quickly). But she at least seems to know how to hold her sword (mostly, those elbows are too high, and too far from her core). Noticeably, she's a lefty.

The new Lilith sculpt isn't really any different than the old one in terms of stance. Neither of them look ready for combat. Neither stance communicates the ferocity of the character. The old sculpt looks like a bored teen standing around outside a Hot Topic. The new one looks like a very angry model striking a pose. Both of them are resting the sharp edge of their sword against their own flesh, though only the original is resting it near her own neck. The new sculpt is much better proportioned, less cartoonish and is wearing a cooler-looking outfit (no hot pants). I'm going to have to go with the plastic one here too.

Misaki's original sculpt is a mess. The blade of her weapon is completely trapped between the rocks she is standing on and her own leg. Also, it's sharp edge is facing her and not outward. Also, her stance is way too heavy. She's going to have a hard time moving from that spot where she is firmly planted. She's going to have an even harder time moving without tripping over her own weapon. It will be made even harder still by the fact that both of her arms are tied up in a silk shawl for some reason. The new Misaki doesn't look much more threatening. The weapon is held in such a way that she'll have to swing it outward with one hand to hit anything with it. Her kicking motion looks like an acrobatic display in motion more so than a martial strike. But the figure is balanced. She's not falling over (which the original is almost doing). And the sculpt does do a good job of communicating both speed and grace, which is better than the old one which just looks awkward. The fabric hangs more realistically as well. Again, the proportions are better, less cartoonish.

I'd say each of these new sculpts is an improvement over the old one. Now, I don't feel that way about all of them. I picked up some of the old Ronin minis as soon as I saw the new ones, and it's going to be hard to top the alternate Sonnia Criid mini (the one with the fireball, though the original static one does nothing for me). But overall, I'd say the new plastics are an improvement over the old metal minis.

Wyrd has rarely done a good job of representing characters who are skilled in melee combat. That's not new, not by a longshot. Look at the metal female desperate mercenary, and tell me what the hell is going on there (besides awesome jazz hands). The new plastics don't look much more threatening than the old metal ones, but they have improved in just about every other way. I'd say most of them do a better job communicating the character of the master as well. Not every master should be in a stable static pose. Some of them are supposed to be quick.

Edited September 15, 2013 by MEP

[snord]

I will re-post here my comments, as I think it is a pretty interesting post:

===========

I rarely comment on blogs, but I have to say I find your post really good and evocative. While I agree with your overall idea of what a master represents, and agree with your reading of the new Lilith model, I have a different interpretation of Misaki and Justice.

Misaki: for me the pose clearly shows a mid-martial-move snapshot. It brings across both the grace and the mastery of martial arts that she possesses and that I would not like to face in battle. I think this statement shows the difference in our reading of the model: "From a combat point of view, she's asking for a swift kick to the face or cut to the back of the head". If you consider the model as an immovable object, then you would be totally right, but if that is a mid-move snapshot, then she is not standing still and would appear to anyone looking at her like a moving blur, with an unpredictable trajectory and very hard to hit.

Lady J on the other hand looks like in a pose after she finished her move. The key tip for me on that pose is her hair. It is like she jumped, cutting a big meanie in half and then landed, showing off with her extended leg, while the enemies run away and witnesses stare in awe. The way the hair is sculpted gives this end of move momentum impression to me, as while she is clearly still, the hair is still moving.

I think Wyrd, like all other miniature companies, have hits and misses in their miniature line. The big difference is how Wyrd is now portraying models in really dynamic poses. I believe it is just a matter of opening our minds to the new possibilities their sculpting process can now materialize.

In other words, I agree with you that Lilith is a miss, but I totally dig the dynamic bad-ass poses of Misaki and Lady J.

[AndyW]

Kendo is very static compared to a lot of Chinese martial arts, which is where you seem to be getting your opinion on stance strength from.

Here is an interesting video to watch, Wu Shu spear style.

and tai chi sword

[Shinigami_Taka]

the new minis are far better . As of the company being a first or cutting edge in "dynamic" poses ummm look up Anima tactics, Bushido, the minis there are amazing thin but amazing lol. My first impression of Misaki was mixed I despise Japanese Chinese mixing but I have come to terms. My reason for despising this is the fact I know the differences and they are huge its like mixing American cowboys with Highlanders or better yet American Indians with actual Hindi Indians lol.

[Dracomax]

Honestly, I mostly agree with Helm here. I will say that, in general, I feel that the clothing improved in M2E(although the Viks....) while I think the poses for those Masters ware much worse in general.

While the specific pose of Lady J might not have been all that great if you though about it, old Lady J took up space. She was large, her sword was large, and she had a completely casual attitude that Honestly felt a bit like Neo signalling "come at me." Her M2E incarnation looks like an anime ninja. she isn't a large, physically imposing presence any more. She's generic waif action girl number 4. Others who are more experienced with swordplay than I have talked at length about the issues with her stance, and I can't really make a statement about its practicality. What I can say is I would have prefered something where she has a wide footed stance, and her sword out farther, so that she takes up even more space than her height would suggest. maybe even have her standing with a foot on some corpse, or with her sword in mid-swing. She should be more like Conner MaCleod, of the clan MaCleod than River Tam.

Lillith bothers me less. I'd still like to see her with a more imposing stance, as the stance she has looks like she is walking into a bar to pick a man up. That feels more Pandora than Lilith to me. She is supposed to be the Jabberwock in pleasant guise. The pleasant guise is there, but the creepy imposing character just seems lacking. I think the issues there are with the coloring and the footing. Really, she should probably move with more of a loose, bent knee stance. She is the master of Malifaux, and ready to move any way at any time. Her old coloring-pale blue, with vibrant hair and lips, also added a lot to her creepyness. Making her more normal toned just reinforces that she looks like a college girl trying to scam drinks or have a one-night stand. Again, this bothers me less than with Lady J, because there is a bit more support for it in the books, but it certainly doesn't convey the imposing and terrifying nature of the Leader of the Neverborn Race to me.

Misaki...I don't hate her plastic. I don't love it either, despite the really nice paint jobs I've seen with it. The sculpt is nice and dynamic. it just really doesn't say much about her ability. She looks more like she is dancing than fighting. I've always prefered Mei Feng's sculpt, because while a bit less dynamic, it conveys what she does better. she is smashing something with martial arts. done. There are a lot of more recognizable, cool martial arts moves that could show of Misaki better, and I hope that eventually we see an alt sculpt that does so. Until we do, She is pretty squarely okay with me.

Actually, I almost wish that Lady J and Lillith had sculpts more like the Viks. WHile their clothing leaves a lot to be desired, the Viks (and the Ronin) strike me as having more imposing, confident stances than either Lady J or Lilith. They look less like they are posing for a photo, and more like they are just confident and ready.

and really, I think that's my problem with Lilith and Lady J in M2E. They look like they are posing for the guild calendar rather than just owning the area around them. The M1E poses had some of the same problem, but at least had the benefit of also looking imposing and somewhat comfortable in their own skin.

[MEP]

...its like mixing American cowboys with Highlanders or better yet American Indians with actual Hindi Indians lol.

Honestly, I'd like to see cowboys with greatswords strapped to their backs and blue war paint on their faces (though maybe not in Malifaux). That actually sounds kind of awesome, like chocolate and peanut butter. It's not terribly far-fetched either when you consider how much North American culture is derived from European (and how much of it specifically derived from Scotland, especially in the central Northern US and central Canada).

I could imagine some interesting combinations of Hindu cosmology and Native American shamanism too. Now that you mention it, the lack of a thuggee-style death cult in Malifaux kind of seems like an oversight, and I've long wondered why there is no Native American complement (aside from the Wendigo I guess) to the ever-present Western vibe. Wyrd crew? Any ideas yet?

[Mason]

My reason for despising this is the fact I know the differences and they are huge its like mixing American cowboys with Highlanders or better yet American Indians with actual Hindi Indians lol.

I thought the old cowboy/samurai Ronin were a good example of this very thing. Cowboys with katana and all.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Mindshred

[Jewomie]

Take this all with a grain of salt, as I am generally not a fan of dynamic poses. The original Ramos sculpt is still one of my all time favorites in Malifaux. That being said...

To me, Lilith comes off as that villan that tip toes around the battlefield, walking over the dead bodies with a little giggle. If it were a movie, she probably flirts with the main character before she kills them, and she moans when she is wounded as if it were just as much a pleasure as pain thing. (think of blood rayne, or even the spider queen in diablo 3) This pose really shows that off in my opinion. the awkward footing is just as much of a defiant stance as and shows that she knows she's a badass and isn't worried about getting attacked. personally, of the three, it's my favorite.

Lady J, I have to say, corset aside, I loved the original. the new one is cool enough, I think the new judge and death marshals more than make up for what I feel is lacking in her. Really the only thing I don't like about her is the action pose. i'm just not a fan of that kind of model. especially when it's the master.

Misaki I've had for a while. I love the pose, honestly. my only complaint here is the size of the weapon vs the 2 inch range, and the toes she stands on is not big enough to pin. I live in constant fear of her breaking off the base. As for the leg way up in the air and the weapon not really battle ready, I think she is in mid movement. maybe she's spinning the weapon around herself as she is flipping into a diving charge? i'm not overly familiar with martial arts aside from what I've seen in Jackie Chan and Jet Lee films, so maybe i'm way off. but it doesn't look too out of place if you ask me. and it looks a lot better than the original metal sculpt.

and i'll bring this up because someone already mentioned them... I love the new look of the viktorias, but does anyone else get a serious 80's movie villain vibe from them? I feel like they are extras from running man, mad max, or even Highlander 2... haha

I do like them a lot though...

[Dracomax]

...Actually, there are 2 minor changes that could be made to M2E Lilith's art/model that would make it perfect. Either have her holding the sword in one hand, and a severed head dangling from the other, or having her base covered in skulls. neither seems like it would be a hard mod, and if I ever picked up Lilith's crew, I'd do one or both.

Really, just having her holding the sword in one hand would help. Yes, it is reasonable that a human would have to use 2 hands in that position. She is not human, and would do terrible things to your body for even suggesting she was. after you were dead, if you were very, very lucky.

The point is that adding a few elements of the macabre, signs that she isn't as innocent as she appears would go a long way towards making her feel like she is the Mother of Monsters. In fact, a few elements like that might work better than giving her a power stance, because they create a tension between the cute college girl and the unknown/unkowable that would give her presence. And it would fit the character better.

and that is the crux of my displeasure with certain models. It's not that I think the plastics are bad--far from it. I think the plastic models and art we have seen thus far are mostly excellent when taken on their own merit, outside of the fluff.

I just don't think they all fit the characters they've been assigned to well. I also think that in places, the designers got a bit too impressed with the ability to make dynamic poses in plastic, and forgot that not every pose needs to be--nor should be--in media res. Sometimes a more static pose with a bit of dimensionality to it works better, and a mix of dynamic elements always works best. I am not saying don't use dynamic poses; just that mixing them in with more static poses works better. it's a continuum, not a set of poles. When models only use one side of it, or when they only hit the far ends of the scale, it only serves to make the really neat poses less impressive, and to make statements about the characters in question that aren't really accurate.

---------- Post added at 09:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 AM ----------

Take this all with a grain of salt, as I am generally not a fan of dynamic poses. The original Ramos sculpt is still one of my all time favorites in Malifaux. That being said...

...

and i'll bring this up because someone already mentioned them... I love the new look of the viktorias, but does anyone else get a serious 80's movie villain vibe from them? I feel like they are extras from running man, mad max, or even Highlander 2... haha

I do like them a lot though...

The viks look like something out of the 1980s punk scene, or Britain's Mod culture. I like the look, and generally think it fits(although at least one of them needs to put on a shirt, or at least a bra....) but I see where you are coming from.

And I love both of the M1E Ramos sculpts. specifically because they are not super dynamic. In M2E, if the art continues on the path it is going, I foresee the best models being the least dynamic, simply because they will stand out more than the others. To quote the Incredibles, "When every one is super...Noone will be." Or to put it in comic terms, It's the difference between the Dark Knight, and the Dark age of Comics. When only a couple of characters are at one end of the scale, they are edgy and cool. when everyone is at that end of the scale, the flaws in that end of the scale tend to overwhelm the benefits.

[Lussuria]

For me personally, I like both Misaki's. I think the second is incredibly "animated" and immediately invoked the image of her mid-battle using her amazing abilities to present a real threat.

I think for me, the biggest problem is Lilith personally. I like to imagine my characters IN battle, out adventuring - using the different aspects of their costume and/or weapons in real animated scenes. Lilith's new costume is...impractical and odd. Why does it look like she has failed to 'zip up' her pants? I feel a legitimate warrior would not wear something quite so ridiculous that's obviously 'for fashion purposes only'.

[daemonkin]

I am not a fan of the original or new plastics Lady J. I have the alt version and am happy with it.

Just recently built the old metal Misaki and very much prefer it to the new plastic version. I now have Seamus in both metal and plastic and it's a tough choice between the 2.

I like the new plastic Lilith but have yet to build her. Happy with my original metal one.

Each to their own. It's all subjective.

D.

[Domime Nox]

I personally like the new Lady J pose, she seems a bit fragile in the build department, but I have no complaints about the dynamic pose. Is it a legitimate realistic pose a swordsman would take? No. But it's no more unrealistic then a blind swordmaster, or denizens from another dimension roaming the world and wreaking havoc. This is a fantastical setting with fantastical people. I agree that opinions on the sculpts are subject to each persons preference, but I do not feel that practicality is an issue.

[rsteelrose]

One of the funniest moments for me with LJ was after I got her Dead Justice set painted up and on the table. DJ's model was a much less imposing figure on the table than the original and it effected my first few opponents also, they would forget which model was LJ and totally position themselves incorrectly. It was one these moments that got me a really great win against Pandora. He had just used Pandy to go through all of my DM's and put her on what he thought was the safe side of a forest, forgetting LJ on the opposite side. I then activated LJ and charged her through the small forest to gut Pandy like a fish, it was great.

[Helm]

Firstly, thanks for all the replies and bothering to read in the first place. As you can probably tell, this has been weighing on my mind for some time; it's really good to hear other opinions.

I think you're just being really nit-picky

Correct. But if there's ever been a model to nitpick over, it's the Master models for a new edition when the Wave 2 artworks are (presumably) being decided on.

The new Lilith sculpt isn't really any different than the old one in terms of stance.

Again, I'd invite you to actually pick up a stick and stand like plastic Lilith. Crossed legs and all, sword sort-of above your head but waaaay out to one side, not at all balanced. Your body knows it's wrong. Compare it to legs apart, sword over shoulder; the hand in the hair may be flirty, but the posture makes miles more sense.

Misaki: for me the pose clearly shows a mid-martial-move snapshot. It brings across both the grace and the mastery of martial arts that she possesses and that I would not like to face in battle. I think this statement shows the difference in our reading of the model: "From a combat point of view, she's asking for a swift kick to the face or cut to the back of the head". If you consider the model as an immovable object, then you would be totally right, but if that is a mid-move snapshot, then she is not standing still and would appear to anyone looking at her like a moving blur, with an unpredictable trajectory and very hard to hit.

It's good to hear from someone who sees the model in a different mode altogether. My issue is that the model really needs another model to complete it in this sense; the kicking looks a little silly when there's nothing there to kick.

This sort of "sports snapshot" pose is something I love seeing in the likes of Minions or when there's another model on the base; I'm thinking of Alt Bete Noire or Santana Ortega here. My problem is that Misaki is kind of central to her Crew, and when the model's on display or approaching an enemy Crew ingame the piece feels incomplete and unbalanced. Misaki shouldn't need someone standing beside her in order to not look a bit silly.

Kendo is very static compared to a lot of Chinese martial arts, which is where you seem to be getting your opinion on stance strength from.

Actually I practice Tai Chi as well, with a smattering of other Chinese martial arts as the teacher and other club contributors fancy, and that's helped the kendo as much as the kendo has helped the tai chi. Strong stances are pretty universal, and while competition displays and set training routines have one's feet off the ground much more than in fighting practice, you still won't see people crossing their feet like Lilith or crouching like Justice as a rule. You definitely won't see them remaining in such stances for any length of time.

...Actually, there are 2 minor changes that could be made to M2E Lilith's art/model that would make it perfect. Either have her holding the sword in one hand, and a severed head dangling from the other, or having her base covered in skulls. neither seems like it would be a hard mod, and if I ever picked up Lilith's crew, I'd do one or both.

Really, just having her holding the sword in one hand would help. Yes, it is reasonable that a human would have to use 2 hands in that position. She is not human, and would do terrible things to your body for even suggesting she was. after you were dead, if you were very, very lucky.

The point is that adding a few elements of the macabre, signs that she isn't as innocent as she appears would go a long way towards making her feel like she is the Mother of Monsters. In fact, a few elements like that might work better than giving her a power stance, because they create a tension between the cute college girl and the unknown/unkowable that would give her presence. And it would fit the character better.

You, sir, are my new personal hero, and have convinced me to actually buy the Lilith boxed set. I am shamelessly stealing your conversion idea, and it is going to be glorious. I'm just not sure how it'll fit with my current purple-skinned Lilith, as the impact would probably be greater with normal-looking flesh.

[Mako]

I actually think that lilith's pose is mostly fine for something mid move, one of the kata from iaido has you stepping almost identically to that. Granted, it's as you come up from kneeling, but you end up standing with your feet in a very close T shape with the blade over your shoulder pointing downward as you're trying to get out from someone's strike without giving them time and space to get a second swing in.

What comes a fraction after that pose is one foot sliding back to turn your body into the move, and the blade coming up and over at their head or neck, now handily accessible as their blade is down by your side after sliding off yours.

Lady J's foot being out so far in that crouch is a bit of a stretch, but I've seen people roll sideways in sparring matches and come up to crouch like that with their foot out to stop the sideways movement. The hair doesn't match that particularly, as it would be swinging the other way at that point. In terms of crouching, its just a bit low and overextended for a nasty slash at someone's waist or legs to cripple them.

Misaki is holding her weapon in a good position to balance her weight shifting as she kicks backward, but I'll grant you that it does kind of need someone/something there to give the kick a bit of a reason to be happening.

I don't think they're bad, in fact I think they're pretty close to halfway points in movements, with a bit of exaggeration thrown in for tiny model stylised-ness. I also think they're mostly significant improvements over the old master models in style, even though I think alt justice is brilliant (I put alt and new basically on the same level). I'd much rather have the dramatic poses than a standing about one, all told.

Edit: Old Lilith's hair playing just reminds me of almost any airhead girl in a film, who's not really aware of anything but trying to look adorable. Probably not what it's meant to be, but that's kind of how it seems. Probably chewing gum, too. *wink*

Second Edit: Just to be very clear, while I prefer the new ones, I don't think anyone else has to. They're totally allowed to prefer the old ones (though I suggest making sure they get hold of them before the metals are gone!). I'm sure there will be ones I'm not fussed about in time, and others will like. I'm just happy with the current direction of them.

[MinimumPhase]

To me Lilith's expression when she is playing with her hair is not that she is being flirty, it is that she is so unconcerned with her unskilled opponent that she plays with her hair. Her original metal pose thus exuded a lack of concern for an ancient being who has seen many opponents, and finds challenge in very few.

[Helm]

I actually think that lilith's pose is mostly fine for something mid move, one of the kata from iaido has you stepping almost identically to that. Granted, it's as you come up from kneeling, but you end up standing with your feet in a very close T shape with the blade over your shoulder pointing downward as you're trying to get out from someone's strike without giving them time and space to get a second swing in.

What comes a fraction after that pose is one foot sliding back to turn your body into the move, and the blade coming up and over at their head or neck, now handily accessible as their blade is down by your side after sliding off yours.

...in your school, did they follow up with the lean back and the double stamp as you cut them in two?

In mine they did, and I'd love to see Lilith doing that.

The nitpicker in me still suspects that she's just walking like that, though; those feet are pretty far crossed as well as the wrong way round.

[decker_cky]

I like to think of it as casually walking around chopping through bodies.

[nagash13]

for the people who complain about the female outfits being too far out there, i say this.

these outfits are better than the women in video games... look at world of warcraft female armor.

and as a hobbyist who has spent thousands and over 15 years on another game companies game and models when i look at a new company i ask a simple question. "what does your company have that i cant already get?" wyrd has badass female models. a bit over the top? sure, but the majority of gamers are still teen-adult males.

[RagingRodian]

I think old Lady J was good, alternate Lady J was better, plastic Lady J could have been best if the designer paid attention to physics. The model looks like she is in movement one way but her hair is going a different way. Sorry, that just throws me off.

Plastic Lilith also pales in comparison to metal Lilith. That is a tough one though, as the original one was sculpted by Werner Klocke, one of the best sculptors in the world. It is a tough act to follow. As someone else that has used a few swords, I don't think the plastic Lilith has a very practical pose but that doesn't bother me as she is not human.

Seamus went from great version one to great alternate version to great plastic one. You can't really go wrong here. It would be a shame though if the metal ones were discontinued.

[Shinigami_Taka]

goons...lol well this game is pretty damn good and much better than any GW crap and privateer press junk to.

[Omenbringer]

I think old Lady J was good, alternate Lady J was better, plastic Lady J could have been best if the designer paid attention to physics. The model looks like she is in movement one way but her hair is going a different way. Sorry, that just throws me off.

This definitely bothered me when I saw it and makes me so glad I have the original metal one. There is just so much wrong with that sculpt.

Seamus went from great version one to great alternate version to great plastic one. You can't really go wrong here. It would be a shame though if the metal ones were discontinued.

While I agree that plastic Seamus does look good (as did the original, though I am not such a fan of the Seamus Campbell alternate) the model in that group that irks me is the Copycat Killer. Dont get me wrong the model itself is great but 100% unplayable with out damaging it. That thin plastic connection is just screaming break me every time you just look at it (I suspect the same with a large amount of the Tara Box) much less actually transport it.