M2E Scale

[mythicFOX]

Also keep in mind there are now three different kinds of Steam Arachnids in circulation. Which one are we talking about?

[DangerousBeans]

I hate the renders. Even a photo of the models built with a black wash would suffice, so we can see what we're actually buying and not what we'd ideally be buying. I hate grumping about Wyrd as Malifaux is still, IMO, BESTGAMEEVER but it's let down by small things such as renders and poor QC.

[Kolath]

I just picked up Malifaux with the Misaki starter set and it generally seems pretty good except for the female torakage that is significantly smaller than all the other models. Is this on purpose? It seems like she is a completely different scale.

[mythicFOX]

So at the time of typing we've now reached a point where the top three threads on this part of the board are all on this same topic. That's going to be needlessly confusing so I've closed the other threads and pointed users to post in this one.

That should save people having to post the same thing in multiple threads.

For reference the old threads are;

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?50107-Brass-arachnid-30mm-!

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?50164-Model-scale-and-sizes

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?50144-Wyrd-Scale

Thanks.

</mod voice>

[graeme27uk]

What is Wyrd's view on the scale issues?

[Mako]

Well, I've seen Nathan post that the gencon viks were wrong and have been fixed (and will be sorted out for anyone that bought the original oversize set).

As for the rest, I think it isn't really accurate to call it a scale 'issue'. The large death marshal (and the small sorrow if I remember right) have been said to be deliberate. Not an accident, not a perspective thing, not an issue, but a choice.

Note that I'm not a top hat so am only going by what Nathan has posted in public on the forums.

Other than that, to my eyes the scaling is as unified as basically every other range out there (obviously there's ranges I don't know very well, so I'm only stating my experience), and certainly as consistent (if not more so) than the old metal range.

[Mike3838]

To be fair, I think the people defending the Death Marshall and the Sorrow as deliberate were not Wyrd employees and weren't in a position to make that assessment.

But you're right, apart from those two models, the scaling does seem very consistent so far

[mythicFOX]

Link to relevant quotes from Nathan from one of the other threads;

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?50144-Wyrd-Scale&p=666695&viewfull=1#post666695

[nagash13]

I too complained that the rulebook and boxes were all artwork and no actual painted photos.

then nathan explained in one of the posts back then why that was.

a company would need to sculpt the model, send the file off to the mold makers, then have the first run of plastics shot, then shipped to wyrd, then hire a painter/paint dept to assemble and paint the model, then have a photographer come in and shoot photos of the models, then design the new boxes, then send the box design to printers, once that comes back, then and only then, could wyrd start selling the models.

that is a lot of steps and people to pay before seeing any return on investment. not to mention, wyrd has to warehouse all the models from the first run while waiting for the process.

to do photos in a rulebook you have to keep a full set of painted models, which requires a painting dept. to be hired, and you often end up with old models in the book. wyrd is in the process of resculpting all the models into plastic, so any photos in the M2E book would have immediately been outdated models.

they way its done now, the art dept sends out art to the sculptors and box designers. box designers and sculptors work their magic. when the sculptor has a 3d render, they pass that to the box dept, and they can start running boxes while the model molds get cut and the first shots are done. this reduces the time from concept to sellable product, as well as the upfront investment needed before seeing any return on the investment.

[Mako]

Plus, when they got them painted people complained about the paintjobs, so with renders they get the same amount of complaining for the massive reduction in messing about (and a reduction in cost too). *grin*

[edonil]

No kidding. I can remember when things were being painted that people wanted to see unpainted models, others wanted to see the stylized art... unless Wyrd decides to do all of that, which is a prohibitive expense, someone is going to be unhappy.

[rancor709]

People naturally look for ways to complain we focus more on the negative than the positive it is a general bit of the human condition. One thing we have to keep in mind is painting is a very subjective activity as to what we find ascetically pleasing. And a poor paint job can hamper sales and perception on figures so can and more often the case poor photographing of the paint job. There are certain styles and techniques that appear better in photo than they look in person and an amazing paint job with poor photography will look twice as crap. So I'm fine with Renders and fine with the art in the box. The main bit I like to see is whats on the sprue and then finished models. Thankfully the community is pretty good at making these available fairly quickly once available.

[decker_cky]

I think that if nothing else, the website should include the renders, unpainted but shaded miniatures, a painted set of the models, and shots of the sprues. You can argue logistics for the initial release, but at a certain point, it makes sense to show the miniatures in all the relevant forms.

I also wouldn't really care if the Gencon stuff came without boxes to make for a better box upon release to the stores. That way people in stores can see the actual miniatures rather than just renders - even if renders are what someone wants, showing renders and painted miniatures will appeal to other gamers/hobbiests more.

[graeme27uk]

Don't mind the renders, not that bothered about painted miniatures as that's subjective and can, at worst, detract from the appeal of a model.

Cohesiveness is more of a concern. Mismatched sizes, colour schemes and such are more important.

As has been said before, its annoying for players if, due to production errors, that models are resized on bases that then means previous models need rebasing.

If there is an error in production in terms of model scale then surely that is the part that needs rectifying rather than errating the rules so that the model is on a larger base.

Unless we are now saying base size is irrelevant and just go with what you think is best.

[Math Mathonwy]

The baffling part about the giant Death Marshall is that his coffin, his gun, and everything else about him is giant as well. He is obviously just bigger scale. Whether that was on purpose or not, I think that the execution was really lazy.

I'm also really sorry about the new Lady Justice - not awe inspiring at all, IMO.

Viruk did an amazing side by side comparison of the old and the new LJ box in his blog: http://www.independent-painters.com/2013/12/old-and-new-lj-and-her-crew.html

Otherwise, I'm mostly happy with the new plastics. They are often a bit annoying to put together but the detail is good when they remember to sculpt it in a way that takes into account the medium. Plastic is able to show really tiny details but they don't lend themselves to painting all that well. Minis need certain exaggerations to work well and it seems that the early Wyrd plastics missed those. The new ones are far better in this regard, though.

There are some really impressive plastics released already and on the whole they have a pretty unique look, which is always good. I know that I'm awaiting the future of Wyrd with enthusiasm.

[Mako]

I think that if nothing else, the website should include the renders, unpainted but shaded miniatures, a painted set of the models, and shots of the sprues. You can argue logistics for the initial release, but at a certain point, it makes sense to show the miniatures in all the relevant forms.

I also wouldn't really care if the Gencon stuff came without boxes to make for a better box upon release to the stores. That way people in stores can see the actual miniatures rather than just renders - even if renders are what someone wants, showing renders and painted miniatures will appeal to other gamers/hobbiests more.

I can't see gencon stuff being sold without boxes as it doesn't draw attention or look professional on a large stand at a convention (not to mention the increased risk of pieces being lost), and making two sets of boxes obviously isn't sensible.

Whether at initial release or after, having the sprues photographed, the models painted, a second set shaded and both sets photographed is a lot of time and expense for the entire model range. Especially given that every single one of those display methods would likely have a few people preferring it, the vast majority not really caring, and a few people hating it.

The renders are the most efficient and practical way to do things, in the end. They don't make everyone happy, but then again what does! *wink*

[i_was_like_you]

For those of us who the leaky roof caused to receive our smoke Taras sans box for $5 less, the bag the crew on the sprues comes in is quite sufficient. Heck, Privateer Press' early release Gencon models often come without the release box. Just the interior packaging shrink wrapped with a sticker of what the product is. So it's not an impossibility to consider for future Gencon / early releases.

Gencon is less about packaging and more about "Shut up and take my money!"

[Mako]

Oh, it will work, but there's a better chance of losing bits. I'd have hated to try and get my gencon haul back home without the boxes protecting the pieces from getting broken or knocked off the sprues...

To refine my point, I would say that no packaging doesn't affect those that know what they want or are already wyrd fans, but does catch the eye of people walking past, and the curious.

[i_was_like_you]

That's the job of booth decor, company renown, and word of mouth, not the boxes that are designed to catch our eye on the store shelves. Or, if you're Soda Pop Miniatures, then it's the job of Marie-Claude Bourbonnais (sp?) and other booth babes.

[graeme27uk]

Slighly off topic... but packaging isn't really too important for me. My main concern is that the packaging protects the precious things inside. If it does that then who cares what it looks like... how many of us buy a box set or model and think "um nice box or plastic.. bit of foam.". No.. we rip the packaging open to get at the models inside and then toss the now redundant card/plastic aside (hopefully to be recycled!).

Back to scaling... so are we going to get models of different sizes and then need to rebase our old models accordingly?

[i_was_like_you]

Back to scaling... so are we going to get models of different sizes and then need to rebase our old models accordingly?

That does, unfortunately, seem to be the case, so far.

That there were three separate threads on this speaks volumes that we're all very concerned about having to rebase our models and that models within crews are going to be vastly different scales, no matter what the reasons for the inconsistencies may be. Yes, some people are bigger than others but usually not to the degree that they'll each need a different base size to stand upon.

[mythicFOX]

After all the festive eating I've done I'll probably be going upto a 50mm base in the new year. This 40's getting a bit snug and it's getting difficult to measure to me.

Never equate the amount of noise generated on the internet with how much the public care about a given issue. A handful of people have expressed a concern about a small

number of models, with a handful of people expressing concern about their concern. That's about the size of it.

I'd also say the 'issue' isn't any greater today than it ever has been in Malifaux. It's just the plastic change is putting it into more focus.

All IMHO.

[i_was_like_you]

Aside from some screwy heights of models, especially the effigies, and ignoring Hoffman's Avatar, as it is plastic, the only model that doesn't want to fit on his correct base size that I can recall was one of the Union Miners. Everything else seemed to be as kosher as can be.

[mythicFOX]

Hunters and LSPA's both got their bases changed up to 50mm in RP. This isn't a plastic thing, this is a general thing that's happened when a sculpt has come out bigger than imagined at the time the rules were written.

All I'm saying is let's not blow this out of proportion (pardon the pun).

---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 PM ----------

I for one am happy to get bigger cooler sculpts on larger bases when the model comes out.

[decker_cky]

I can't see gencon stuff being sold without boxes as it doesn't draw attention or look professional on a large stand at a convention (not to mention the increased risk of pieces being lost), and making two sets of boxes obviously isn't sensible.

Whether at initial release or after, having the sprues photographed, the models painted, a second set shaded and both sets photographed is a lot of time and expense for the entire model range. Especially given that every single one of those display methods would likely have a few people preferring it, the vast majority not really caring, and a few people hating it.

The renders are the most efficient and practical way to do things, in the end. They don't make everyone happy, but then again what does! *wink*

They could do generic unprinted boxes (for much cheaper) with a sticker identifying the contents at Gencon if boxes were considered important (ideally with painted and unpainted models visible on the booth, or with a poster to show what's available).

Shading is something that should always be done for all miniatures. You assemble a set, prime it white, then quickly shade it. Needs good pictures, but otherwise it's hardly an expense. Sprues could easily be done at the same time.

Painting is a bit more of an investment, but for a game requiring that investment out of their players, I don't see why that shouldn't be done for the sales packaging (particularly for a company like Wyrd which has always been so strong in the painting community with their competitions and with Eric as one of the founders).