Future of Ours MalifauX experience

[PierceSternum]

I was going to stay out of this, but it amazes me how many of the people that don't like M2E are determined to insult those that do, or claim that they actually mean they want 1.75 but are somehow unable to express it. Or the other favourite, insult the designers personally.

...

But please stop telling people that like M2E (or, for that matter, 1.5) that they're wrong and/or stupid. It doesn't help your argument.

Well, you are "in" it now, so I have to ask who you are talking to.

I cannot tell if you are referring to me as having "insulted the designers personally". I am the only person that I saw that "named" any of them, at least over the last couple days, so I assume you mean me. And if so... I fail to see the insult.

I do not know who you are saying that is calling people wrong and stupid either.

It doesn't overly matter I suppose as it does not change anyone's opinion of the games, but I am trying to see where this thread derailed into bitterness and to a degree in my eyes, its sort of in your post.

Its helpful if you either quote who you are replying to, or at least put their name.

Edited July 13, 2013 by PierceSternum

[nix]

Also, if nothing else, I think Wyrd deserves kudos for making M2E a definitive change over 1.5, as opposed to some other companies I know who have been using the same tired, unwieldy, broken mechanics for years and have the nerve to just fiddle with things and call it a new edition.

I agree, Wyrd certainly deserves Kudo's for having the fortitude to take on such a drastic change. Understanding that the forums are only representative of the wider community and that this poll is likely very biased (based on reasons already posted), it can be construed that the move will be successful. With the poll hovering between 75% and 80% fully embracing V2.0, I imagine that falls within Wyrd's measure of success.

I certainly foresee a split in the community where 70% - 80% of the current community moves forward with V2. I think it would be nice if the other 20% - 30% could find a way to continue to enjoy Malifaux as well, especially if it means they continue to lend some of their purchasing to Wyrd (perhaps for models or fate decks).

[Fetid Strumpet]

The problem with this poll is that those who built their admiration for Malifaux on the foundations of things that have been stripped or eliminated from the game have mostly already left. Just like if a poll was opened on a site devoted to 1.0 Malifaux it would most likely showcase a large percentage of those who disliked the game.

I'll admit I thought when 2.0 was announced before I got the rules that they would take the years of collected play data and just improve those masters who couldn't effectively compete and clean up the rules. I think however that what they did will in the long run serve the company and the game as a whole much better, and once I have a little more time tonight I'll post on it further.

[Mako]

Pierce: it's not aimed at you, or in fact at any one specific post in this thread (consider it an accumulation of comments in here, and elsewhere), so don't be insulted. I found your comment that I specifically referred to quite insightful.

I simply wished to express my frustration and puzzlement that there's been a fair bit of posting on the forum of late (on both sides of the argument) that seemingly refuses to accept that it's all personal preference, and one game is not outright superior except in the eyes of each individual.

If it reads as bitter, then that's accidental. I am not bitter, and am not picking out any one person or small group of people. I'm all for people making their own decision, I thought I'd said that clearly, but I guess not. This new edition works well for me, and for a number of other players I know, but it won't be for everyone. I just wish people would stop trying to score points for their side of the argument. There's a lot of stuff in here that pretty much reads as veiled mockery or insult, which is what I was questioning.

[dgraz]

I certainly foresee a split in the community where 70% - 80% of the current community moves forward with V2. I think it would be nice if the other 20% - 30% could find a way to continue to enjoy Malifaux as well, especially if it means they continue to lend some of their purchasing to Wyrd (perhaps for models or fate decks).

Agreed.

The only other thing that we can't really see here is growth. How many people will start playing Mali due to M2E.....compared to how many were blown out by the massive complexity of "classic". I know I had lots of potential players that I never got past the demo stage or had bought a crew and started playing only to quit a month later.

Several of those people have expressed a renewed interest in the game just from showing them the new cards. Even doing demo games in the past required a carefully sculpted scenario of the most basic models and interactions......that guy I mentioned above demo'd on Mei Feng......could you imagine doing that before.....with her encyclopedic card? And even after that careful demo, after they started getting a closer look at all the other models......they quit.

I'm so tired of trying to grow my community........3 years of averaging 4 players!! We had around 10 at one point....for a few months...then back down to 4. I strongly believe M2E is going to double or even triple that number within a couple months after official release.

Totally agree with Fetid's post above. I was strongly against this complete revision of the game and would have gone as several others have stated...with just a correction to the worst rules and a re-balance to all models.......but now I fully believe that what they chose was the right choice.

Edited July 13, 2013 by dgraz

[PierceSternum]

Pierce: it's not aimed at you, or in fact at any one specific post in this thread (consider it an accumulation of comments in here, and elsewhere), so don't be insulted. I found your comment that I specifically referred to quite insightful.

I simply wished to express my frustration and puzzlement that there's been a fair bit of posting on the forum of late (on both sides of the argument) that seemingly refuses to accept that it's all personal preference, and one game is not outright superior except in the eyes of each individual.

If it reads as bitter, then that's accidental. I am not bitter, and am not picking out any one person or small group of people. I'm all for people making their own decision, I thought I'd said that clearly, but I guess not. This new edition works well for me, and for a number of other players I know, but it won't be for everyone. I just wish people would stop trying to score points for their side of the argument. There's a lot of stuff in here that pretty much reads as veiled mockery or insult, which is what I was questioning.

Cool.

And I agree that it seems pretty difficult for some people to distinguish preference from fact and struggle with the preference of others. (On both sides)

I do get my hackles up at the notion that either version is particularly more complex than the other.

They are different. I think that is the only "true" thing that is fact. For each comment I see about the number of lines on the old cards, I really wonder how that will translate once the newer VP scoring mechanisms have been truly understood and we have the OTHER 67% of the models released.

Be that as it may, if I thought M2E was BAD, I wonder if I would be as... Mellow... as I am.

But the thing is, its not. Its just that each version makes me want parts of the other and its a struggle.

[dgraz]

For each comment I see about the number of lines on the old cards, I really wonder how that will translate once the newer VP scoring mechanisms have been truly understood and we have the OTHER 67% of the models released.

I don't understand what the amount of info on each model's cards has to do with the VP scoring mechanism. Could you elaborate?

I'm also not in any fear of what's going to happen with the other models yet to be released. They are all being done at virtually the same time......and by the same people. From what I understand, they're already in progress...even while the open Beta was going on. The open beta covered the main rules and a solid selection of models which can now be used as a solid base-line to balance everything else against.

We're talking about what? About a year for every model released over the last four books? That stretch of time between books and new teams working on it is what creates power creep. Now they're all getting hit at about the same time, by many of the same people.

[mythicFOX]

One thing I think it's also important to keep in mind is that there will always be a cycle of players. New people will join and existing people will leave. Life moves on.

What I think a lot of people miss is that the community isn't a fixed population of people, it's a constantly shifting populous. As a result it's important that a game not only retain existing players but attract new ones.

M2e to me may well have lead to a significant level of attrition, but we have to hope (and I firmly believe) that we'll see an upsurge in players as M2e comes to fruition, and that we'll be a bigger and stronger community for it.

All IMO.

[rancor709]

v2 fixed a lot of the issues I've highlighted with 1.5.

I can appreciate the love for 1.5, I have great love of that game as well but it did have some very large flaws.

Given enough time all systems break or reach a breaking point its why new editions are released.

I found more combinations that work in the new edition than did in v1.

So the depth/complexity argument to me is nonsense as Taking a neverborn crew in v1 or taking x +vonschill is not depth or complex.

There are a lot of moving parts in both editions and its soo early in the new edition we haven't' even been able to scratch the surface.

Could a model come out that completely breaks the power curve and such, yeah it could but to date were not there yet. We have time for this system to mature.

And that is a major sticking point for vets. For vets there are years invested in the system learning and memorizing those corner cases and finding those order of operations and optimal combinations. Then they change how the toy works slighty and eliminate move, replace those synergies with other less obvious synergies and we start saying there's no depth.

No there's different things to learn new skills to master new advantages to seek out and use. And the playing field is a lot more level right now as the skill differential isn't as large now we've all only been playing v2 for a short time.

Some love the decisions made, some hate the directions, the reality is we are at a new edition and that is a point where people jump on, or jump off and that's okay.

What ever wyrd did with this edition there was going to be community backlash there always is its different.

I've said it for a while the bones are good. And I really enjoy v2 more so than v1 and if you told me that six months ago I'd though you were nuts.

Its an evolution in the system somethings relevance has been turned up others turned down. The game is much more forgiving but there are bits in it that are so intriguing and have that wonderful puzzle feel that keeps me going in games.

1.5 was largely a solved system book 4 help remove part of that but even there it was very much heavily dictated choices. There is currently less of that in v2 to me and the design direction has also so far steer away from that. Over time I'm sure we'll all find retinue crews and builds that fit style or match up but I can see that being the norm at tournament level instead of the old 1 or two builds that work for this faction as in 1.5v.

2.0 is not perfect but i prefer the system to 1.5

I find that skill is greater determining factor in 2.0 than in 1.5 and the old mini game of eliminate the soulstones off master than come in for the kill is no longer the game.

I like the customization possible in the upgrade system, if you think about it there are soo many masters in the game now due to the exponential nature of the upgrades on them. It could be argued that every upgrade combination on a master is a new master. Similar to there basic form but with different ability and specialties. That is somethign I hope continues to grow as the game does, the system is brilliant and the upgrades have continued to improve overtime I see this being a large differentiation for players and styles. We already see 2 distinct styles of seamus in his Melee bag o tools vs his Sinster Reputation gunman. That is existing as there is now a within the rules way to quickly and cheaply patch old or under utilized pieces.

I also firmly believe your perception of malifaux 2.o will largely depend on what faction you played last edition.

There has been a consensus effort to bring all masters in line with each other and the strategies and schemes. No longer is it faction to faction but master to master from a balance stand point. Some matchups still harder than others but much less rock, paper, shot gun going on.

There is still a good portion of work there doing behind the scenes and masters they have to update and bring in line I'm looking at you book 2. If they can tame Rising Powers and get those interactions to work within the new system and be par with what has been public than we really have something.

And I can understand how looking at me2 and then looking at me1 you go wow this solves a lot of what I don't like in me1 but there are these other points in me2 that one did better. That's the nature of edition change.

[dgraz]

What I think a lot of people miss is that the community isn't a fixed population of people, it's a constantly shifting populous. As a result it's important that a game not only retain existing players but attract new ones.

I agree with your post......this line is particularly true. My biggest problem with 'classic' was that it didn't retain very many people beyond the first month or two. Six months or a year I could see...people just want something new.......but 2 months is bad....just bad.

[Helm]

I agree with your post......this line is particularly true. My biggest problem with 'classic' was that it didn't retain very many people beyond the first month or two.

I'd agree with this. I know a few newer players who bought into 1/1.5E on the assumption that you could play a game with a boxed crew and a couple of extras. It's amazing how many people can get "weeded out" in those early stages.

I bought Dreamer (pre-errata), another person bought Nicodem. I had to deal with putting down Dreamer and watching other people wince just from the prospect of playing, and he had to deal with the concept of faction balance meaning "you didn't buy Kirai, so will have serious trouble with Strategies X, Y or Z". Not to mention the sight of a dyslexic friend struggling through even Minion cards.

Some people, myself included, really thrived on the more complex cards with situational rules and essentially different rulesets for different Masters, as well as the ability to shift the difficulty level of the game through crew composition and Scheme selection. It still didn't make stomping Molly into the ground with Collodi and Zoraida at all pleasant for me or my opponent when we were limited by our model ranges and finances.

On one hand, I'm aware that many new players brings more money to a company than a stable of people who already own the range. On the other hand, those new players will get a more streamlined game with better prospects of actually getting to play with their friends, and an insane amount of model and scenario variation that'll keep them playing for a long time, and they'll get to do it without the need to fork over as much time or cash.

[Omenbringer]

The old rules were just too complex for beginners, and you really needed 3-4 games before you started to "get it". I find that it's much easier to sell the game to newer players now.

What game doesn't take 3-4 games to really understand the operation of?

Even M2e takes at least that to really understand the system and how to work with in it. The basics of 1/1.5 could be taught in a matter of turns not games (I along with others have done this hundreds of times at conventions and local stores all over). There is a huge difference between understand the core rules of a game and the specific rules of the models, crew interactions and advanced concepts (like deck shaping, out activation, Red Joker fishing, etc).

Perhaps it is just my background, but I have absolutely never experienced any issues with new players (and I mean completely new to mini gaming) grasping any of the Wyrd games while demoing things. Lets face it not everyone is necessarily cut out to demonstrate/ instruct concepts in a manner that people can rapidly grasp (not trying to be elitist just stating a fact).

[Rather Bookish]

I don't understand what the amount of info on each model's cards has to do with the VP scoring mechanism. Could you elaborate?

I think something Pierce was getting at is that the new VP scoring mechanisms add complexity to the overall game -- so it's not that M2E has just hit the easy button, despite having simpler cards.

And I've found this to be true in practice. With the streamlined cards and rules I'm better able to keep my head around what the particular models are doing, or can do, during a turn. Still, keeping up with/trying to guess all the scoring conditions (both mine and my opponents) adds a layer per round that I didn't particularly feel in M1E. I should add that I'm a fan of the changes overall -- including the scoring mechanisms.

That said, I took a while off from Malifaux so I wasn't too familiar with the per-turn scoring that was apparently introduced in later books.

[nix]

I just wish people would stop trying to score points for their side of the argument. There's a lot of stuff in here that pretty much reads as veiled mockery or insult, which is what I was questioning.

*grin* *grin*

Man Mako... you take all the fun out of keeping a score board!

*grin**grin*

[Omenbringer]

I'd agree with this. I know a few newer players who bought into 1/1.5E on the assumption that you could play a game with a boxed crew and a couple of extras. It's amazing how many people can get "weeded out" in those early stages.

For the most part I would argue this is still true (and what is intended by the company, it is after all advertised as a Skirmish game). Granted there were exceptions, some crew boxes just required more of an investment like the Som'er box or better grouping like the Zoraida box.

The examples you cited are more problems with some crews balance or unintended issues caused by the prevalence of a previously rare interaction/ ability (like spirit and Bury, both present but very rare in the first book) than the actual core mechanics.

Even this "new" edition isn't going to solve gamer migration, we are a fickle community easily enticed by the new but also fiercely loyal to what we know. A new edition might draw back the older disenfranchised gamers or even attract completely new ones but it wont prevent eventual migration, especially if it doesn't address the core of the reasons a player left initially or their expectations.

---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 PM ----------

...so it's not that M2E has just hit the easy button, despite having simpler cards.

I would argue that the model cards aren't exactly simpler than the 1/1.5 ones, in truth they are just spread out more. In a lot of cases any removed abilities simply became purchasable upgrades. Once you add in those upgrades, the models become just as difficult (if not more difficult) to really learn since now there are substantially more possible interactions or permutations per model/ crew (and I would also argue things are going to be a hell of a lot more difficult to really balance, especially as more get released).

[Rather Bookish]

I would argue that the model cards aren't exactly simpler than the 1/1.5 ones, in truth they are just spread out more. In a lot of cases any removed abilities simply became purchasable upgrades. Once you add in those upgrades, the models become just as difficult (if not more difficult) to really learn since now there are substantially more possible interactions or permutations per model/ crew (and I would also argue things are going to be a hell of a lot more difficult to really balance, especially as more get released).

I can't speak to balance issues, but I agree with you on the complexity upgrades bring. Right now, I'm mostly getting used to the models without upgrades, so I wasn't really thinking about them.

[PierceSternum]

I think something Pierce was getting at is that the new VP scoring mechanisms add complexity to the overall game -- so it's not that M2E has just hit the easy button, despite having simpler cards.

That is exactly what I meant and obviously was not clear about. Thanks.

I also failed to even mention the complexity that various upgrade combinations will bring.

I mention them as a point of complexity, not as a "negative" per se. (I do not count complexity as a negative)

I am not sure what to think about that whole system yet. I feel like right now, with the current options, they do not feel as awesome as I feel like they should when someone describes to me "an upgrade system that really lets you customize your crew".

As a single sentence blurb, that sounds more exciting to me than what I perceive the reality of the current set of upgrades to be.

But, I do not want to rat-hole on that point because I do not have suggestions for how I think upgrades would specifically be better, so I recognize that I am making an unfair characterization.

Edited July 13, 2013 by PierceSternum

[Claymore65]

Right now, I'm a huge fan of M2E. I found it much easier to get into and try out some more options. A lot of needless complications are gone now (Leveticus lost some of his card shenanigans that made him more confusing etc.), and a lot of cool fluffly upgrades exist now (Mcmourning's On the Clock and Moonlighting). The game has, in my opinion, become more focused on your personal tactics rather than order of activation and crazy combos. I understand missing some of those things, but I really enjoy the game now. For those of you wishing for more complexity, one factor to consider is the "really" complex models/masters haven't been seen yet. For example, the Dreamer and Hamelin are seen as some of the more complex masters but they aren't in the beta yet. Once they come out, we'll have some more "complex" masters to play.

The biggest advantage for me, however, is my brother is now willing to play. Back in M1.5, he started with C. Hoffman. I started with Von Schill, and I generally trashed him. He didn't look up tactics on the forums too much, he just wanted to play with the models he had (Hoffman Box Set + Peacekeeper). Because of this, I ended up brutally winning almost every match, as he didn't know tactics like the Protect Chain and such. Order of activation killed him sometimes as well. He played Sonnia later but still struggled. Once the M2E beta started, he is seriously enjoying the game more. He plays Sonnia and loves it more, and can easily make decisions with the options he is given. He likes that is more about his personal tactics then memorizing all of the rules on the card. Does he have trouble occasionally? Sure, but he enjoys the game much more. I'm not saying everyone will have this experience, but I've found it is easier on new players but still offers most (if you include upgrades) the complexity of M1.5 without requiring me to look up rules/faqs/erratas online to figure out if a certain combo works.

[Alviaran]

All in. I think tweaking is still happening, but M2E is such a massive improvement IMO.

For me, 1.5 was a game I liked. I couldn't love it though. M2E is a game I can love. And I want to.

I'll miss certain things. But I did that with Warmachine MK1 too. I saw my Cankerworm be an utter broken terror. And I kind of miss that because it was funny and cool from where I was sitting. But I know how bad it was for the game. And I am glad that is gone. I just get a little nostalgic now and then.

[Valcurdra]

This is definitely the case

A few times since I started testing I just played.

Didn't record, didn't think of changes. Forgot the fact I was testing.

It allows you to sit back and just enjoy

No pressure, just gaming. M2E is a beautiful game.

I'm current doing some practice for the Australian GT. Its a 1.5 tournament and I can tell you, I wish it wasn't.

M2 is a much much more streamlined enjoyable game.

+1 to this.

M2E is just a far more fun game to play.

---------- Post added at 10:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 PM ----------

Victory because the other guy forgot the mostly useless parts in your card is not victory, it's just abusing a lack of knowledge, I had a lot of these in old warmachine and though you felt really clever when you won with Amon, you knew it was only because the guy wasn't aware what you could do with him.

I used to play a lot of starcraft 2 and that type of victory is called cheezing. M1 was a really good game and I had fun but a lot of the time it felt like a massive cheez fest.

[Sklertic]

I am interested in how you feel the new version has changed? Considering over half the models in the game are not even being tested yet I cannot see how anyone has gotten in enough V2 games to say this won't happen again.

This post was to address the state of M2E SO FAR. Of course I can't comment on future combinations, I am saying that SO FAR this version hasn't had that effect yet.

[Loxley]

For me I really struggle playing V2.

From what I understand from speaking to a lot of others I am pretty much the only one who thinks this, so it must just be how my brain is wired, but I found V1/1.5 to be VERY intuitive.

I remember my very first game and how within a matter of minutes I was seeing all manner of different synergies and it all just jumped off the table at me, I didn't need to think long and hard about any if it, in fact I did the opposite, I shut off my brain and everything flowed, and it was great fun.

Now I tried for a very long time to get my head around V2 but I could only do so while thinking about every single action and synergy.

Nothing jumped off the table for me, everything felt forced and by the end of every single game I had a head ache.

Based on this I've had to stop playing v2 all together and won't touch it until after GenCon for these very reasons.

Like I said, I've not heard of a single person who agrees with me on this, but for me, in streamlining the game they've made it less intuitive for me and in doing so an actual chore to play.

[nix]

For me I really struggle playing V2.

From what I understand from speaking to a lot of others I am pretty much the only one who thinks this, so it must just be how my brain is wired, but I found V1/1.5 to be VERY intuitive.

I remember my very first game and how within a matter of minutes I was seeing all manner of different synergies and it all just jumped off the table at me, I didn't need to think long and hard about any if it, in fact I did the opposite, I shut off my brain and everything flowed, and it was great fun.

Now I tried for a very long time to get my head around V2 but I could only do so while thinking about every single action and synergy.

Nothing jumped off the table for me, everything felt forced and by the end of every single game I had a head ache.

Based on this I've had to stop playing v2 all together and won't touch it until after GenCon for these very reasons.

Like I said, I've not heard of a single person who agrees with me on this, but for me, in streamlining the game they've made it less intuitive for me and in doing so an actual chore to play.

I had and still have a very similar experience with V1/1.5. It's a game that clicks for me and has a ton of very intuitive combo's. V2 does not give me a headache (yet) but is just not as enjoyable as V1.

[Omenbringer]

A lot of needless complications are gone now (Leveticus lost some of his card shenanigans that made him more confusing etc.), and a lot of cool fluffly upgrades exist now (Mcmourning's On the Clock and Moonlighting). The game has, in my opinion, become more focused on your personal tactics rather than order of activation and crazy combos. I understand missing some of those things, but I really enjoy the game now. For those of you wishing for more complexity, one factor to consider is the "really" complex models/masters haven't been seen yet. For example, the Dreamer and Hamelin are seen as some of the more complex masters but they aren't in the beta yet. Once they come out, we'll have some more "complex" masters to play.

We have already seen examples of what happens to the really complex masters. Several were included in this play test cycle. So my question is what do you think about the changes to Zoraida, Leveticus, Som'er and Pandora?

And though the new edition may allow for a bit more personalization (not that I necessarily agree as the vast majority of upgrades were just things that the models used to possess in 1/ 1.5) the models and crews are still basically designed around an intended method of use (and in some cases even more tightly focused than before).

I'm not saying everyone will have this experience, but I've found it is easier on new players but still offers most (if you include upgrades) the complexity of M1.5 without requiring me to look up rules/faqs/erratas online to figure out if a certain combo works.

What I find great about the "new" system is that it somewhat forces "new players" to experience a progressed learning experience rather than everything at once. A lot of demos I have witnessed try to teach every system nuance in 15 minutes when a basic explanation of the core mechanics would more than suffice. There is plenty of complexity in the new system and I would argue that in a lot of ways their is even more (it is just hidden better and across more cards).

Errata's/ Faq's/ Clarifications however, will happen in time. The company has even softly committed to a regular update cycle (from what I recall it was a 6 month cycle and going to be stored in one central location). This is good as issues with any system often take a bit of time (and a much larger audience) to really manifest. Once this hits the mass release it is a bit of an inevitability that Errata's/ Faq's/ Clarifications will also need to be written (sooner or later). This will become even more true as more and more "options" are released (new models, old models, new upgrades, new interactions, etc.).

Now I get that people are really excited about the "new" system, that is both a natural and good thing however, to pretend that it will be perfect at release is not. To quote a principle from the recently released Privateer Press Convergence of Cyriss book:

The First Harmonic: Absolute precision can be achieved only by continually diminishing the margin of error.

I expect the system reset to attract a new community (which is a good thing for most of the parties involved) however, I also fully expect there to be Errata's/ Faq's/ Clarifications (a good thing for all parties involved).

[caen]

For me I really struggle playing V2.

I almost force myself to like M2E because I slowly come to realization that the only way for me to play MalifauX is to play M2E.

But it is so hard for me … every time I see the arts of my favorite characters (or to be precise the art of evolved characters), their new cards I fill … sad and abandoned. Not really sad and abandon – but rather sad and abandon as much as my hobby can inflict me.

Good thing is that I have rather vast collection of MalifauX models so I will pick band with rules I like – for me there is no other way because in my area most peoples enjoy M2E.