How would you rate the four books

[Math Mathonwy]

With a sizable amount of the minis from the fourth book now out, what's your opinion on the Masters and Minions in the four books?

The first book showed that it was a first book but despite that I actually rate it rather high. I mean, yeah, there's quite a few things that were rather underpowered like the Arcanist beasts or, say, Hans, but on the whole I really like the book 1 stuff. Well, one niggle is that caches are apparently somewhat governed by fluff, which is weird.

Book two went a bit off the high end of the power curve with Dreamer and Hamelin and the Stitched and the twins and such. After all the errata it is still the high-powered book with stuff like Kirai and Collette. There were a few under-performers as well (Guild Autopsies, anyone?) but yeah, this was definitely the power book.

Third went the opposite way. It seems that the developers and playtesters got timid and produced a load of stuff that's almost never seen in competitive lists. Stuff like Latigo Pistoleros, Crooligans or Collette's Avatar. All in all the Avatars are IMO all over the place and currently I'm not really a fan of what they bring to the game. I mean, the oft stated intent of them was to alter the playstyle as opposed to providing a simple boost in power but in practice this is true of very, very few Avatars. The most used Avatars like Ramos or Sonnia are quite simply boosts. I mean, sure, they lose a trick or two but mostly they do what they did before, just a lot better. And then there's stuff like Collette's or Perdita's Avatars which kinda cripple them. The few Avatars that I consider a real success like Lady Justice* or Som'er seem more like flukes than the product of a meticulous development process. So yeah, this is my least favourite book by a fair margin.

*Well, one could argue that turning from a combat monster to buffing your troops in the midway point of a game is a really stupid idea, since the troops tend to start being dead at around that point, but she does meet the criteria of changing focus while retaining the approximate power level she had.

Finally, the fourth book. Here they managed to finally provide slow, tough, high-costed melee beatsticks worth taking. Ice Golems and Flesh Constructs (has anyone ever hired this as opposed to summoning in a competitive environment?) are replaced by Rail Golems and Izamus. The new Masters seem to be powerful but not so much as to overshadow the previous tier 1 stuff. All the factions got many new and useful choices but no new twins as far as I can tell. So I guess this one is my second favourite book, balance-wise.

Now, it would be interesting to consider what would've happened if the second and fourth books would've changed places. Would Storm of Shadows then be seen as the over-powered one with Rising Powers being a solid entry with some long-awaited new stuff? What do you think?

Edited January 18, 2013 by Math Mathonwy

[edonil]

Honestly, I think book four is my favorite. And not just because I'm absolutely loving playing my Ten Thunders crew, but because I think it was just well done and solid. You can see the teething problems with the other books, where book two overshadowed the earlier stuff so massively it overwhelmed them, but book three didn't really change the meta up all that much except for maybe Seamus and Ramos. Book four added a new faction, but did so in a way that each faction gained something that works well with all of the Masters.

Now, I will say that what I have loved about all four books is the imagination coming through...but out of them all, I think that book two showed the most. You had some really creative concepts that you don't see in gaming all that often. Were there balance problems? Yes. But, to Wyrd's credit, for all that it's taken time, they have been addressing them, as opposed to some other companies that refuse to acknowledge a problem at all. And the erratas have been taking so long because they are refusing to compromise on the creativity that went into designing those things, which I also have a lot of respect for.

While I do wish to see Book One's stuff get raised to the level of their competitors, I can't say I'm super upset with the way Wyrd is doing stuff. Book Two featured the Masters who needed the most synergy, while Book One didn't...Rasputina themed lists may not have gotten more powerful, but the Book Four minions have given her some fresh options in Minion selection that will let those who feel most comfortable with Rasputina and want to play her the chance to do so at a competitive level again. So, through the Minions, you are seeing updates to the older Masters...but I'll be amazingly excited to see things like the Ice Golem revisited and raised up again.

[Orboros]

Even though im not a big fan of the Ten thunders faction, i also have to say Book 4. The models are really well balanced and the Dual Faction rule is a great addition to the game. The only downside of the book is that there is no ongoing story. As i don't like the idea of Avatars in general i have to say i dislike book 3 the most but thats completely biased opinion.

[Gruesome]

Book 4 for me felt like the most mature and cohesive execution. It would have been strange if the experiences gained from the prior books had not resulted in a more complete and well-structured effort, but even so, I continue to be pleasantly surprised at my expectations having been exceeded in every way.

I want every model in the book.

I think every master in the book looks fun.

I cannot wait to see what all the minions do for my old masters.

It does not feel like anyone has been short-changed.

The worst thing I can say about the book is that I think that it will be pretty darn tough to follow it up.

But... I love when my expectations are exceeded.

[rancor709]

Book 4 to me shows the hard won lessons of 3 previous efforts of the design team. 10t are excellent faction and are my main focus this year. This book has me buying as much if not more than the precious books combined because i love the faction and the models are all meaningfully playable. For me book 4 seems the closest to book 1.in that it plays well within itself and outside of itself. Book 2 never. Felt it played well outside of itself. It will be very difficult to fully appreciate. Bok 4 impact till we start seeing more results. From my play with theme its been highly enjoyable an i lookbforward to more book options.

[Cadilon]

1. Book 1

This is the meat of the game; the base and starting point for looking at how the models interact.

2. Book 2

There is a bit of power creep, but its really added unique mechanics and play styles that fleshed out what was started in book one.

3. Book 4

Love the models. I see it as more of a refining and exploration of how models can interact. Love the duel faction idea and additional dimension of crew creation is adds.

4. Book 3

I like the idea of Avatars. I enjoy playing Sonnia. But it just seems like they are a spur from the game that just aren't going anywhere. They make an interesting option, but don't add that next dimension of play that I was expecting. The additional interesting minions added keep this book from really being a flop.

[nix]

I find this to be a tough question to answer. I would start out by saying Book 1, but that's because without Book 1 we would not have Malifaux. How could you not count that as the favorite book overall? I don't think that's exactly whats being asked though.

If I assume Malifaux is just a steady state and we then look at the 4 books as compared to each within the game, Book 4 is my favorite. Past that, I have trouble ranking the rest of the books as a whole. Book 4 is my favorite for a number of reasons, several of which are already posted. I agree that Storm of Shadows shows the most maturity in model design across the four books. The way the Dual Faction was implemented along with the balance of the new models compared to the previous 3 books was very well done. The models themselves stick true to the background and feel of the model while still fitting into the "balanced competitive" spectrum of the other models within the game. With a few exceptions (Ironman, Ama, and Vanessa) I will be picking up every model in book 4.

Book 4 being a clear leader, the rest of the 3 books become a bit tougher to rate. My favorite masters in the game per-book 4 are Lady Justice, Dreamer, Pandora, Collette, Lucius, Kaeris, and Kirai. It might actually be in that order as well, although all of those rate really close to each other. Looking at those 7, 5 of them come from book 2. The Master's in book 2 show incredible and fantastic synergy within their crews, and really tell a story on the table. They do this in a way that is much stronger (stronger in theme, not necessarily balance) than the other models in the game. In addition, I like a lot of the minions in book 2 despite the fact they are on the high-end of the balance curve. Book 2 pushes itself close to my second favorite book because it included an expanded selection of Strategies and Schemes as well, which I think benefits Malifaux overall.

Book 2 gets pushed back from my clear second-place favorite for a number of reasons. In many cases, the book 2 models outclass their book 1 counterparts across the board. I think its easy to see there were some "pet projects" in the development of book 2, which is something I feel detracts from the game overall. Additionally, while I love the expanded schemes and strategies, there is very little balance with many of the schemes. Book 2 was not a good book overall for competitive Malifaux, which detracts from the appeal of the book compared to the rest of the line.

Book 1 is very self-encapsulated and works well when it stands alone, and less well as you add other books to the mix. You can really see the core foundation of the game in book 1, with many of the book 1 models being the "foot troops" of a crew. Every game needs a foundation and book 1 provides that foundation for Malifaux. At the same time, foundations are rarely exciting and book 1 suffers from this to a certain extent. The "themed" crews in book 1 really end up dropping back a bit on the competitive power curve, which hurts the standing of the book overall. I can really see where there were great development ideas in book 1 that were strongly honed and improved on in book 2 and beyond.

Book 3 is a bit schizophrenic to me. My name is in the playtest credits of the book, and a lot of my feelings on book 3 are colored by that playtest (both positive and not-as-positive). Trying to put those aside, I see a couple trends overall. I think the idea behind a lot of the minions is really good, but then the execution for those minions is lacking. I think that based on the ideas for the minions, Book 3 could have been acclaimed and fantastic (on the minion front) but ended up falling short and settling on "just ok". There are some good and some bad minions in the book, and this shows by the ones that see play. Lots of people play with Effigies, but only a select few of the effigies actually see regular play. The Pale rider and Warden from the guild are very popular, but the Exorcist is incredibly situational and the Pistolero's are often declaimed as not being claimed by the guild. Jakuna is a beautiful model with some great ability, but she ends up working very wonky in actual practice. Drowned are loved but Dead Doxies .... not so much. Iggy and Fire Gamin are great, for Kaeris. Across the board there is a real mix on the minions.

Then you look at the Avatars. Looking at my preferences, I love a number of the Avatars and play them regularly (plan to play the ones I have yet to paint). aSonnia is actually among my favorite masters to play, while Master Sonnia is not. I really like aJustice, and have plans to regularly use aDreamer and aSomer when I play those crews and the models are painted. aKirai will be tested, but I am still learning Kirai so do not know much about how she works. aRaspy will be in all my Raspy crews, although I do not play her as much any more. While I love the avatars, there is a lot of discussion about how they are not a huge success across the board. I have read many threads about how players do not embrace the avatars and do not think that book 3 was well done (on the avatar front).

I guess for me, after writing this essay, I would rank the 4 books as follows, in order of best to not-best:

1. Book 4
   
2. Book 2 and 3 tied
   
3. Book 1
   
4. 
   

[Gruesome]

jakuna is a beautiful model with some great ability, but she ends up working very wonky in actual practice. Drowned are loved but dead doxies and rafkin.... Not so much.

ftfy.

[Math Mathonwy]

I find this to be a tough question to answer. I would start out by saying Book 1, but that's because without Book 1 we would not have Malifaux. How could you not count that as the favorite book overall? I don't think that's exactly whats being asked though.

I tried to frame this as a model stat (and feel) comparison but maybe I should've included it in the title. Mea culpa.

Book 4 being a clear leader, the rest of the 3 books become a bit tougher to rate. My favorite masters in the game per-book 4 are Lady Justice, Dreamer, Pandora, Collette, Lucius, Kaeris, and Kirai. It might actually be in that order as well, although all of those rate really close to each other. Looking at those 7, 5 of them come from book 2. The Master's in book 2 show incredible and fantastic synergy within their crews, and really tell a story on the table. They do this in a way that is much stronger (stronger in theme, not necessarily balance) than the other models in the game.

An interesting point. You see, I actually am not a huge fan of that extreme synergy. When you encounter a Collette crew, you can guess with about 90% accuracy the models it will include. The same is somewhat true, though not quite as extreme, of Hoffman and Dreamer as well, with Hamelin also often falling into the same old same old thing (not so much in certain strategies, though). I feel that Kirai is the only one of the book 2 Masters who has a pretty wide selection available to her, though certainly nowhere near most book 1 Masters. The book 4 Masters fare a lot better in this regard that they have themes, sometimes very strong ones, but aren't utter cookie cutter lists. Or that's how it seems to me, anyway.

[dgraz]

An interesting point. You see, I actually am not a huge fan of that extreme synergy. When you encounter a Collette crew, you can guess with about 90% accuracy the models it will include. The same is somewhat true, though not quite as extreme, of Hoffman and Dreamer as well, with Hamelin also often falling into the same old same old thing (not so much in certain strategies, though). I feel that Kirai is the only one of the book 2 Masters who has a pretty wide selection available to her, though certainly nowhere near most book 1 Masters. The book 4 Masters fare a lot better in this regard that they have themes, sometimes very strong ones, but aren't utter cookie cutter lists. Or that's how it seems to me, anyway.

I strongly agree with this. I like synergy, but not to the extreme extent that book 2 went to. Different strokes and all that. I love how the 10T masters (especially when run as 10T) can select from a wide variety of models while still having at least some synergy with those models.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Book 3 is my favorite. I just love the avatars idea and the excution is ok. Knowing that masters may have more then one avatar keeps the excitement up. Also it adds a mini achievement into the game that I love. Though it might not help me win I can't help but want to accomplish both goals. Though thief are clear losers in the book, many of the winners outshine. Blessed December has bell to be one my favorite model designs.

Book 1. I love the core models and master. I don't think I have devoted myself to anything but book 1 masters. Plus the simple core uniques are great like the sexecutioner and judge in guild are a blast. I love mercs like convict gunslinger.

Book 4 comes in before book 2 I think this a great design. I love the new masters styles. I think this should be the shape of how the game is balanced. Why 3rd is I don't like the addition of a new faction. I love the fluff why but not into ninja thing.

Book 2 great models bad balance too much crew synergy.

I like my crews to be able to pick a wide range of models.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Strictly from a mechanical standpoint,

Storm of Shadows feels like a real maturation of the game's development, taking the extremes of both Malifaux and Rising Powers and finding a happy middle where the game can hopefully continue to tread. Themes were revisited and refined (The Black Sheep in particular feel like The Family 2.0 to me), and although there are winners and losers like always, the extremes seem to be closer to the center. Plus it gives us a new method of Resurrectionist resummoning that I would love to see become the standard framework.

As such, I put Malifaux and Rising Powers together in second. Both feel like half of the whole game, the first book giving us the framework for the game, and the second really exploring what could be done with crew themes.

Finally, Twisting Fates. It introduced one of my least favorite aspects of the game. It will probably be less appreciated than the hypothetical Book 5 that we're probably not getting.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Jonas Albrecht

[Usiel]

Book 1 and Book 4 are at the top of my list... decent balance, good choices of how to combine models, and a real attempt to have the rules at least reflect the fluff.

I enjoy many models in Twisting Fates, but Avatars are all over the map, some are great and add to the game, while others feel like a miss.

Rising Powers has a number of good models, but has some of the worst rules language and model balance. Plus, Special Forces... this concept really needs overhauled, it works completely differently between factions. Arcanists are hurt by the restriction, Guild seem to not care, Ophelia, Collodi and Von Schill run their crews just fine, and Molly... poor Molly :Sad_Puppet2:

[nix]

Book 1 and Book 4 are at the top of my list... decent balance, good choices of how to combine models, and a real attempt to have the rules at least reflect the fluff.

I enjoy many models in Twisting Fates, but Avatars are all over the map, some are great and add to the game, while others feel like a miss.

Rising Powers has a number of good models, but has some of the worst rules language and model balance. Plus, Special Forces... this concept really needs overhauled, it works completely differently between factions. Arcanists are hurt by the restriction, Guild seem to not care, Ophelia, Collodi and Von Schill run their crews just fine, and Molly... poor Molly :Sad_Puppet2:

@Usiel - I did not want to derail this discussion, but opened another thread in the Arcanist forum to talk about the highlighted area above. Link to other thread here.

[thebarbalag]

I agree with many of the sentiments discussed herein. The hyper-synergy of Book 2 Masters is the eventuality of a problem I had with Book 1, and perhaps simply a symptom of my own nuttiness: that the story-oriented connectedness of such a character-driven game lends itself to a kind of disjointed feeling when mix-and-matching crews. I know that Nino is a Guild agent and could very reasonably be assigned to a mission with Sonia, but that doesn't mean it doesn't "feel" odd to me. Book 2 took that to a mechanical level, essentially enforcing it, with crew limitations, or at least synergy so extreme is would be stupid not to take advantage of it.

Book 4, on the other hand, takes crew synergy in the right (from my perspective) direction, for example, Jakob Lynch, who loves to have Brilliant minions, and minions that dispense it, or take advantage of it...he also takes great advantage of existing minions, such as Sorrows, and Stitched Together, and, the way he is presented in the story makes these choices "feel" correct to me...I can almost feel Lynch's skin crawl when Mr. Tannen brings a wispy, green, nausea-inducing Sorrow into the Honeypot, grudgingly accepting that he has to deal with the oddness of his "allies." And minions like Mr. Tannen feel perfectly at home, by extension, in a Zoraida, or Pandora crew. That sort of story-based finesse is everywhere in Storm of Shadows.

As for Book 3, I love Avatars, and I'm not entirely sure why others are so down on them. They may not be particularly powerful, in fact, in some cases, I'm fairly certain that manifesting distinctly weakens a Master. However, I feel that they bring a really interesting element to the game, outside of winning and losing matches. They almost become a new win condition, a new challenge, like some of the more difficult schemes to accomplish. I could see hosting a tournament where certain actions could only be accomplished by an Avatar, or manifest could score victory points that would be quite fun. That's me, though, and winning and losing are not the most important things in the game for me (which is why I have lost a good many games that a more powerful, less flavorful crew could have won me).

Edited January 22, 2013 by thebarbalag

[Setoth]

Ruleswise, basically what everyone else said. In order; Book 4, Book 1, Book 2, Book 3.

That said, I really love the fluff and lore of Malifaux. In that regard, Book 4 is my least favorite. A lot of stuff got built up in Book 3 that had me asking lots of questions, but Book 4 didn't really touch as much as I would have hoped about the Tyrants and the plotting and the scheming. Book 2 was probably my favorite, followed closely by Book 3. Then Book 1, and lastly Book 4.

[WUWU]

Book 4 is easily the most well-designed and effectively play tested Malifaux product so far. Maybe even by a long shot. I really, really hope Wyrd follows along this path.

With that said, book 2 still probably has the most powerful models.

Book 1 is pretty neat.

...Book 3 almost pure garbage, I'm sorry to say. Personally, I hate the Avatar mechanic, and my local game shop isn't really keen on stocking much more Malifaux, as their shelves are filled with dust collecting avatars and book 3 minions.

[Cats Laughing]

Ruleswise -> Book 4, Book 1 (both reasonably close to each other), a gap, Book 3, another gap, then Book 2.

While Avatars may be hit or miss for power levels, I really like the interesting way of putting them into play and none of them were OMGWTF overpowered negative play experience creators. Book 3 isn't great, which is why I set it back a bit behind the best two books, but at the same time it doesn't leave a sour taste in my mouth by creating auto-includes that create negative play experiences for my opponents.

I far prefer the existence of underpowered models (which you can choose to skip or knowingly take the handicap) over the existence of overpowered models (which you can't avoid because your opponent's will often take them). This is why I rate Book 2 last of the batch, with a gap between it and Book 3. Perhaps Book 2 was relatively balanced across factions, but there was almost no balance between Book 1 and 2 and almost no point in taking Book 1 stuff against the NPEs in Book 2. Note that other than Levi from book 1, the biggest errata cuddles have been to Book 2 models: Alps, Dreamer, Hamelin, Rats, and Nekima. Some of this might be due to the time frame, and perhaps we will see cuddles of Book 3 & 4 models in the future. On the other hand, I think Wyrd has learned a great deal from the previous books, so there is much less errata needed for Book 3-4 models, at least in terms of Cuddling. Some buffing might be nice, but you rarely see gaming companies buff models for being too weak.

As for fluff, I love all 4 of the books, though I'll rate Book 4 last for having no Rasputina fluff

[nix]

@catslaughing you missed or forget the Pandora questions and errata that we're so popular early on. Also don't forget the Perdita errata!

[Cats Laughing]

@catslaughing you missed or forget the Pandora questions and errata that we're so popular early on. Also don't forget the Perdita errata!

I did miss that. I didn't get into Malifaux in the very beginning. Book 1 as presented in Book 1.5 or the V2 cards is pretty solid, imho.

What was involved in the Perdita errata? Was it as sweeping as Dreamer/Hamelin changes?

What other errata was big big cuddle bat errata?

[dgraz]

What was involved in the Perdita errata? Was it as sweeping as Dreamer/Hamelin changes?

What other errata was big big cuddle bat errata?

Yeah, I've been playing Perdita since I started (note my join date) and I don't even remember Perdita errata. I remember the Obey errata......but that was for everyone with Obey, not just Perdita. Could just be my faulty memory, maybe something will jog it.

[nix]

Perdita was, at one point, able to ignore LOS with her bullet bending spell. This was adjusted/changed during the V2 update (possibly a bit before, but certainly in the V2 update) to her current version which ignores cover.

Pandora used to be able to incite/pacify friendly models to really fly around the board. I cannot remember the changes to link, but that was also adjusted somehow I believe.

[Sobek]

One of the things I always liked most about the books was the fluff. For the most part, Book 4 was disappointing to me because it didn't carry on with the story that was being told in the first three. It was just a collection of short stories that didn't really have much to do with the overall plot.

[dgraz]

Perdita was, at one point, able to ignore LOS with her bullet bending spell. This was adjusted/changed during the V2 update (possibly a bit before, but certainly in the V2 update) to her current version which ignores cover.

Oh yeah.

[Jonas Albrecht]

For the most part, I agree with the sentiment on display regarding Masters having too tight a focus. In general, I feel they should be able to field and work well with a large variety of minions available. However, I do feel that there is a place for the hyper-specialist crews, in the Outcasts. Masters like Colette (who I think would fit fine in the category of Outcasts as a smuggler) are so attached to their theme that I would question the need to really break them out it.