Are the Ortegas too expensive for the current game?

[Jonas Albrecht]

Had a lengthy conversation with an out-of-town guest player on Sunday, and one of the things he spoke with me about was The Ortegas. Namely how their cost prevents them from being useful to Perdita at a competitive level.

Now, most of the time, I am pretty crepe at pricing models, but when I compare the Nino, Santiagoana, and Abuela to more recent (book 3 recent, my book 4 is still lent out), there does seem to be a small discrepancy at the 6-7 stone level. Now, obviously Wyrd has better things to do than Right Price™ their older models, so this is merely an academic exercise.

Are the Ortegas too expensive for competitive play? With tempo and activation supremacy being so important in competitive play, are all high cost models (7+) too expensive for competitive play?

[xKoBiEx]

Not all high-cost models are too expensive for competitive play. But, when your clan line is filled with high-cost models, it does become preventative to build a really fluffy list that is highly tuned and competitive.

I want to use the word consensus...but it may not be right... I see a lot of people taking 1 or 2 Ortegas that really fit into their schemes and then filling their list with lower-costed ranged or melee attackers when building competitively and then running the whole Gunslinger Box when they are just playing for fun.

This isn't just limited to the Ortegas. Other crews have similar problems.

[Joel]

That might be the first time I've heard Niño being called over costed

[Jonas Albrecht]

That might be the first time I've heard Niño being called over costed

I think he's pretty impressive myself, but there is the nagging issue of the value of the soft control that he and other ranged models provide.

[Adran]

I don't think so.

Nino is still by far the best shooter in the game with his multiple shot autodeath sniping Machine gun.

Abulea is always going to be tricky to cost, as her power increases as you field more Family, so she will never seem good in a low SS game, but the value of her when she heals 6 family members for 1 spell can seem low.

I don't think people think Santiago is too expensive. He does plenty for his cost.

Activation supremicy in competative play is great, but in many ways the Family companion in a decent sized group is much better than the extra guardsman or two in your list. I certainly don't think 7+ ss models are useless in competative games. It is not just about quantity, the quality of the activations matters. This is why the Ortega ability to activate your whole force in one go can be better than trying to out activate the opponent. It is one of Collidids greatest strengths in that he can be 6 activations or 1 uber activation, knowing when to pick the right activation order is vital.

I don't think you will find many competative lists where the crew doesn't use a model costing at least 7. And those ones you're most likely to are probably going to Summon one of the larger models.

Your local games may be signifigantly different to mine, and what holds true for me may not hold true for you, but I can't think of any of our competative builds from 25 ss and up that we are going to not use any models of over 6 SS.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Activation supremicy in competative play is great, but in many ways the Family companion in a decent sized group is much better than the extra guardsman or two in your list. I certainly don't think 7+ ss models are useless in competative games. It is not just about quantity, the quality of the activations matters. This is why the Ortega ability to activate your whole force in one go can be better than trying to out activate the opponent. It is one of Collidids greatest strengths in that he can be 6 activations or 1 uber activation, knowing when to pick the right activation order is vital.

One of the great things about Companion (Those Guys) is that it lets you fake Activation Supremacy. Now, if you do it wrong it will bite you in the ass, since you're actually going to be down an activation if you don't make it up with a murder.

[Pox]

gonna agree with Adran on pretty much all points.

The ortegas are great and pointed to reflect this, in many ways they perform better in a list led by Lady Justice that gives them a close combat punch and of course the +2cb to their ranged attacks! is plain nasty (cb 11 nino with trigger happy is sad times for many an opponent.) Or perhaps giving some of them melee master or heck ignoring duels for targeting people is a real killer on crews led by pandora, kirai etc.

being able to manipulate your activation control is just plain nasty as your opponent will never know for certain how you are going to approach a situation and it is much harder to anticipate.

at 25ss you will expect to see at least one 7ss minion unless it is something very specialised like a collodi doll list (whose only 7ss+ model is weaver widow) or certain gremlin builds.

[FearLord]

Did he mean they were too expensive as individuals or as a full crew? Individually, I think they're all pretty decent priced models, but I rarely run a full family crew as the combined cost of multiple 7ss models seems to make the crew on the small side...

I would generally run say Santiago and other cheaper models in support (Witchlings, Death Marshals, Watchers, etc)... None of them seem over priced to me though, and I have run 4+ family members in the same list before without massive issue...

---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

Did he mean they were too expensive as individuals or as a full crew? Individually, I think they're all pretty decent priced models, but I rarely run a full family crew as the combined cost of multiple 7ss models seems to make the crew on the small side...

I would generally run say Santiago and other cheaper models in support (Witchlings, Death Marshals, Watchers, etc)... None of them seem over priced to me though, and I have run 4+ family members in the same list before without massive issue...

[Jonas Albrecht]

Did he mean they were too expensive as individuals or as a full crew?

I don't think the distinction was made.

[geistwald]

Obviously I don't know your out-of-town guest player, but here Perdita is considered to be a competitive master. The Ortegas are still pretty lethal vs so many opponents, while they lost some edge vs others, mainly because the new releases. That's how all models/crews are supposed to work, and I'm glad that sometimes you feel Nino a bit over-priced

[mythicFOX]

With tempo and activation supremacy being so important in competitive play, are all high cost models (7+) too expensive for competitive play?

I want to pick up on this part of the question, as I know little about the family.

As you say activations are very important in MX. This means that if you consider power to SS cost as a curve (our equivalent of MtG's Jedi Curve), it should be more exponential than linear. In other words an 8ss model needs to be more than twice as powerful as a 4ss model to compensate for the loss of activations and AP associated with taking one model rather than two. This get's more and more pronounced as the model's cost increases.

What I think a lot of the mid-cost models (5-7ss) suffer from is they're rather in the middle of this power curve. They're not worth taking to bulk out you activations like the cheap models (2-4ss), and they don't come with the amazing ninja skills of the expensive models (8ss and up) so they struggle to find places in lists.

How often do you see a 7ss Coryphee on the table on its own?

[Joel]

I agree with James. The MtG Curve is a decent place to start thinking, but MtG has limited ways to win compared to Malifaux's numerous strategies and schemes - and this can have an impact on the value of models.

The 7ss model comment is particularly accurate - its one of the main reasons that the eception to this rule - The Twins, Tuco, etc. are as highly thought of as they are - plenty of bang for the buck.

[Droachmega]

The problem I run into is not so much the models worth, but how big a target they are. A lot of my good mid ss choices always draw attention and usually get taken out quickly making them seem like they are not worth the ss cost. For example, the warden(5 ss) has a somewhat easy to get off paralyze trigger, thus making him a big target and taken out quickly.

[xKoBiEx]

Looks like most of the responses come from areas that have pretty much the same meta as around here. Ortegas are solid. Points costs are not always the only factor to weigh. 1-2 Ortegas in with Perdita seems the norm.

[Forar]

Eh, Magic has plenty of ways to win, but many of them are alternate win conditions rather than the standard, so it's not really an arguable point. I just loved me some alternate win conditions (milling, poison, "win the game" cards, etc) during my days as a player.

And I agree with mythicFOX; the Guild seems to lack some of the truly scary figures some other factions get access to at the higher SS costs, something I've pondered in the past. Perhaps that's in part due to personally not having much experience with the Pale Rider or Lucius, so my only 'big ticket' figure that often sees play is the Peacekeeper, and that's at least partially tied to Hoffman eliminating its weaknesses and having the potential to double activate it for further hillarity. Ryle too, I suppose, and it's possible Sidir will see table time, but everything else is pretty much in the 4-7 range.

I know the models aren't balanced between one another, but rather by faction, however the guild's strength laying heavily in its 4-5 SS range can be an interesting juxtaposition; not low enough in cost to really swarm like some other crews, not high enough in costs to justify some of the truly terrifying abilities packed on a few pricier pieces. Better than average, but sometimes seeming to lack a little oomph.

That said, I fully recognize it could just be a touch of "the grass is always greener..." going on, and that isn't to say there aren't plenty of strengths to go around. But while my opposition will whine about the glory of Witchling Stalkers and Austringers (for their cost), I'll in turn look at Jack Daw and ponder "how the hell am I even going to deal with that thing, let alone kill it?"

Edited December 18, 2012 by Forar

[mythicFOX]

I agree with James. The MtG Curve is a decent place to start thinking, but MtG has limited ways to win compared to Malifaux's numerous strategies and schemes - and this can have an impact on the value of models.

The 7ss model comment is particularly accurate - its one of the main reasons that the eception to this rule - The Twins, Tuco, etc. are as highly thought of as they are - plenty of bang for the buck.

True, which is why I used the fairly abstract concept of relative 'power'. The twins and Tuco are played (IMO) because they out perform the curve in terms of power, so earn their space in the crews.

As others have said, while guild may lack power at the high cost end they probably make up for it at the low cost end.

[dgraz]

My biggest issue was book 2 when Ophelia came out. Most of the kin is slightly less expensive and slightly less resilient..otherwise their abilities are kind of a wash but the Gremlins can use there abilities to greater effect. The bad part is that they have much more synergy than the Ortegas..........Ophelia being able to sling them around and give them the auto-trigger to do double damage.....combined with the ease of healing that they have access to.

They have a higher threat range thanks to the Ophelia bonus movement and Reckless. Nino can be shut down by his targets being stuck in melee.....not Rami who can freely shoot into melee and ignore Ht 1 models.

And don't get me started on her totem.....3 of them that are hard to hit, Reckless and can cast 'Right Between the Eyes'.

[LupusFerreus]

Would you have been satisfied if the Latigo Pistoleros had been better? I believe most people don't like them.

Following on, do you think that Perdita will see any more Family members in the future?

[Forar]

It seems like an obvious sub-faction to expand as the books go by, assuming the continue to expand the storyline. Ask any large family; there's always someone new popping out of the woodwork.

But yeah, aside from most of the Avatars, the only Guild figures I don't have are the Pistoleros and the purifying flame (sure, it's no Malifaux Child, but seriously... ??).

[dgraz]

Would you have been satisfied if the Latigo Pistoleros had been better? I believe most people don't like them.

The Pistoleros were a big miss. I think book 2 was overboard with a lot of models so they tried to scale back in book 3...and these guys were scaled back way too far. They're useless.....most Ortega's run and gun...only Nino is the exception...so Pistolero have an ability that gives a Df buff at short range ....have to activate first, goes away as soon as the friend activates, (All) action so they can't do anything else and they're slow as hell..........????

They have family, but can't companion....or increase the size of a companion chain. Insignificant. And they're a Pistolero without a decent gun and Crit Stike on the knife........?????

I own almost every Guild model there is but I don't own them and probably wouldn't accept them if someone gave them to me. For one more ss I could have a Marshal or a Stalker. Or for the same price I could take a Watcher....which is great with them....remove cover bonuses, deck-play making Hero's Gamble even better, and Significant.

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I still like the 7ss guys, but as others have said the Guild have other great low cost models and I often find myself reaching for them. Companion is awesome in its place, but I never Companion more than 2-3 models at a time anyway and Nino is rarely, if ever, in that chain since he is usually too far away - so no bonus to have him there......for the same ss, I could have a Stalker and a Watcher.

Watcher as I mentioned above, Stalker adds melee punch, Stalker has dispel...combined with Spellbreaker, not much is affecting your crew..........and you have another activation.

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I would like to see more Family. When I mentioned in another thread that they had no weaknesses, I was just joking. They lack a survivable melee component and they lack magic attacks of any kind. While you can get those things outside the family, they aren't family....and I'm not taking Abuela just to make the Executioner family. Her I actually own, but I don't care for her and I never use her.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Hey, I originally made the comment, and it was in relation to taking a crew full of family. Not that each model was over costed. The original comment I made was that I personally didn't consider perdita a terribly competitive master because she lacked great synergy with an effective crew. Considered in isolation perdita the master is a freightening model. She is as scary or more so than Lilith, but I feel perdita falls down because the best crew for synergy she can take are all expensive models that may be fairly point costed, but in the current environment there are enough models out in various factions that are worth more than what you pay for them. Now this might change now that perdita has access to wastrels and some of the other goodness that book 4 brought for them, but that was what I meant by my original comments.

I will state in full disclosure that some of this is opinions formulated by not having a truest great guild player using perdita against me. I might change my mind and be persuaded otherwise if someone can demonstrate how wrong I am.

[dgraz]

I've always felt that Perdita's greatest strength was that she didn't synergize well with anyone. She just does what she does....using her abilities to make any crew better (very much like Zoraida). This means that she can choose any crew to fit the strategy....and she will still be doing what she does.

That's not to say that she couldn't be better if she had some things that synergized better (like the stupid LaCroix that outstrip the Ortegas in every way due to that synergy).

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well look at Lilith and the neverborn. Lilith has some synergy with them. But what she is mostly is a fiendishly hard to kill nightmare of a Melee monster with a trick or two. Add in a crew full of stuff that synergies with itself, and is worth on average more then their cost and you have a very competitive crew.

The guild just didn't have that many models that excelled at particular roles for perdita to bring her monster dmg dealing to. It may be different with the new minions from book 4.

[Odin1981]

I think the problem they run into is that guild sucks at 8+ models. Outside of trigger happy combo chains you often can not take out 8+ stuff without luck. But also the problem just box set ortega's have is they overload on guns but only have dita and fransisco as melee options. One of which usually dies after the obey charge flurry companion chain goes. Granny is cute but unusable due to low wounds in regards to her cost in competitive play. Nino I feel (lol people will disagree with me here) isn't needed with ortegas but is good with other guild masters. He is too limited against a experianced opponent that isn't going to allow you to shoot his figures. He is also a card hog that other members of the crew need just as much. Also if you take him with other ortegas and a melee option your list goes way to elite. Also he himself is rather quite lacking unless you consistently draw hands chuck full with masks (it can happen sometimes but definatley not consistently). I like using him with lady j but not with other ortega's. He also requires alot of support to make him potentially nuts and in all reality what 7+ cost model can't get nuts with 10+ points of support.

Don't get me wrong I love fransisco, santiago, and dita. But generally I can only afford to fit those models in a family list + totem (dita's) and still have room to take other things to round out my crew (to make it a viable all comers list). They perform there roles well. But I find the big problem with them is only one figure of the ortega's has a conditional +1 action. When the gremlins all have reckless (fast for a wound yeah ill take it) not to mention much better healing options (slop haulers curb stomp abuelas heal). I would kill to give papa reckless he might actually be useful then and wouldn't cost me 1/2 my hand saved up over 3 turns to get him to where it hurts. Also one thing with guild that I think is a error that people make is they often have too many guns in a list and their lists become static and now that their are mobile hitty options across all factions they can close with our gun nests and kill/tie them up.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Odin1981

[tadaka]

Your basicly trying to play a box set vs a custom built list. Thats the issue. fluff lists fall to a well built list thats just how gaming works. every model in the family except perhaps grandma has there place in solid well built lists. But fact is going just family is going to fall short. I dont think any box set out of the box is solid vs a custom list taking in to account all a factions strenghts.