geistwald

Mature nephilim do have armor, and more often than not they are the ones the gunsmith is supposed to put holes in (aka "behind the front line for support"). You're absolutely right in combining 2+3, that's my point exactly, only your wording is way more coherent...

In my experience those lists don't need too much time to build up, and it's always harder to shut down their production mechanics than to get around the whole problem anyways. As you said, grow lists tend to keep close together, so the best idea is perhaps to capitalize on that: you can use all the open space you're left with, and once they spread out, attack them one by one with everything you have. Colette excels in that, also Marcus has a good chance to win by VPs, with matching speed and possibly some serious black blood immunity (silurids, waldgeist, KJ). I never fielded Ramos vs these kind of neverborn lists and I can be seriously wrong, but your way seems to me like "lets beat them in their own game", which isn't too tempting. But if you want/have to play Ramos, probably your tactics is the best one to follow... Side note: I must be the only one on this planet, but I don't find gunsmith to be terribly effective vs things like nephilim. They are pretty accurate for sure, but they seldom have the chance to attack the same target two times a turn. Even then, 1. the trigger is more than dubious to count on, 2. without the trigger, you can have tons of positive flips, but you still have the 1/3/4 damage code, practically 1/2/3 because you've chosen wooden bullets, not armor piercing ones. The red joker is nice to flip/cheat in once in a while, still not something to count on regularly.

Yeah I realized that one and edited, probably you were fast enough to read the first draft IMO staying power is relative, because 8 wounds, HtK and big hammers are nice, but your wk4 models without any considerable defensive/movement tricks just get shot to pieces or eat an alpha strike that you can't answer sure enough... Sometimes (many times) staying power lies in not getting hit at all, and being able to choose where/when to contact the opposing models. Of course quantity can overwrite quality in this regard, but you play Marcus, not Nicodem, so I wouldn't willingly plan to start an attrition war on any scale.

First of all, Ama No Zako costs 8SS and the raptor costs 2SS. If you want to get rid of some soulstones, you could get rid of Johan and Kang. In your previous post you mention that you plan to field fast crews, let alone you don't really need J and K with Kaeris, Ama No Zako, the convict or the gunsmith(s) on your roster. On the other hand, raptors are ace with Marcus, I'd enter 2-3 for a competition like that, great fillers and more.

The -2wd from object2 still applies, so the spread looks like 1/1/3. With a positive flip, of course.

A little bit confusing, but m&su memder and m&su asset are different traits. As for Johan: he is pretty okay for 5ss, but don't bet on him killing Seamus...

Actually union miners don't excel vs Izamu... sure it can't activate riposte, but in practice the miners still do 1/1/3 damage to it.

You can use her (0) spell to gain Ca:masks, so all you have to do is cheat in :crows from your hand...

I'll have to give it a try, it wouldn't be the first time when my theory-faux skills fail me. However, the opponent that doesn't know which to try to stop, seems to be in the comfortable position to attack any of the 3 to remove all 3 from the game... if it's a decoy, so much the better. The cards manipulation part is exciting and no mistake. My initial idea was to field 2-3 union miners and Johan w/ the avatar, because decoys are m&su members too, providing the miners two extra points of arrival, not to speak of activating all of them in companion. Have you by any chance tried something like that?

How so? Don't decoys (insignificant) reveal themselves in the end closing phase or something like that? (Not picking at you, I'm really interested, because the main reason I haven't tried the avatar is its inability of late game objective grabbing, at least to my understanding...)

He means the gamin can soak up 2 Wd if your master gets hit, that's practically object 2 in most cases, only it's better if you suffer 1 or 2 pts of damage. (Better for your master ofc, the gamin would possibly disagree.)

Same here As for the gamin: I think one can come handy in every setup, even with Colette. ('Handy' doesn't necessarily mean it's the best choice you can make, but it's unlikely that you'll regret the 5ss spent.) I still struggle to justify two, because I'd call for something more pro-active for 10ss, and it's beyond my depth why they come in boxes of three. Rules-wise, Protective and Hard Case is one thing, but Df5 Arm2 HtK and the (0) movement trick make the gamin a pain to get rid of. In theory, they make excellent roadblocks, especially if you're able to pull Small But Fierce once in a while and/or you're able to heal them, but it takes the right crew to capitalize on having 10-15ss in road blocking and using the scrap when they die...

Of course it does explain why I like to field Killjoy with Marcus, that's what my whole post was about However, "this game is not terribly deep" was supposed to mean "there are some uncomplicated basics that can't be overlooked or get around". I never said "this game is not deep", in spite of your respectable interpretation. As for Marcus being extremely straight forward, well it's my opinion, which isn't derived from the Tables of the Law... only it's the same with yours, mind you. The OP asked for options on expanding the list above, so I threw in my $0.02. Feel free to disagree, but never let me upset you.

@Jewomie: you're probably right, it's a matter of approach... I regard Marcus as an extremely straight forward master without notable staying power, that's why it's important to have a strong distraction element in his lists, be it KJ, Jack Daw or anything else. This game is not terribly deep, it's very easy to lose because you're simply put to the sword. Many times you have to make sure that you'll be able to exchange blows with your opponent, only then can you actually capitalize on your superior speed. Night terrors, silurids and other beastlings can surely win games on their own, I just suggested to have KJ with you in the foam trays, just in case they can't.

Awesome indeed, we'll do our best to be able to join in.

@Jewomie: technically it's what Adran just said, and more: at the end of the turn, you can fly a rapror 16' away (that's practically any place you need it), then park his feathery bottom near juicy targets. If you win initiative, bring out Killjoy; if your opponent wins initiative, no problem, he can kill the raptor, because you push the jackalope b2b and bring out KJ the next activation. Also raptors and the jackalope are excellent targets for Eat Your Fill. As for why do Marcus need Killjoy: he is the perfect piece to keep your opponent busy, while your fast and somehow fragile models collect all the VPs you need. He also forces your opponents to play in alert mode, because they know it can pop up anywhere, anytime. I've done fairly well in a tournament with the following setup (only 1 loss, mostly because of an extremely greedy move on my part): Marcus + 8ss -Jackalope Kaeris Killjoy Malifaux Raptor ×2 Waldgeist edit: you can speed things up if you swap the waldgeist +1 raptor +2ss for 2 silurids.

Since you have raptors by the handful, and hopefully you'll get the jackalope, I suggest that you try the mercenary Killjoy. It's a perfect fit for Marcus and the said creatures, and it's a very handy option vs. certain opponents anyway.

With Self Preservation, silurids aren't any slower than night terrors... in fact they are somehow faster. Sure they're more card intensive, but you flip 7+ often enough not to make a constant hash of your hand. I'm not saying night terrors aren't good for 3ss... only silurids are 2ss worth better. IMO the single thumb rule is that you'd better take one or the other, never both, because silurids and NTs together easily go redundant in a bad sense.

If you need that extra AP to move Marcus in position to cast feral and alpha or extend its impressive charge range, you can still lure him with an oiran, push with various models etc. However, Marcalla is right: the real "brokenness" would come from (+2) Subconscious Actions, not (+1) Fast.

Attacks =/= attack flips, because only strikes generate attack flips, other kinds of attacks don't. (Silly as it is.) That affects Souther Charm in a big way.

@Adran: It's a matter of one's definition of hitters, after all is said and done. Your train of thought is pretty consistent, only it seems to differ from mine. The witchling example was partly wrong because I misremembered the RG of December's command, sorry for that. I think hitters have to hit hard (obviously), and need to be reliable in sense of giving an effect to the whole thing. The latter is hard to specify, it ranges from the ability of getting in position to the ability of not having anything more important to do, but in my opinion Snowstorm fails on this one for various reasons. Not that it can't be more hitty than many other models, because it can be.

Really I don't consider something a hitter if it starts its activation 4" away from a witchling, and can't be 80% sure to kill it in case of necessity. What is more important, you'll seldom have the opportunity to launch its full might in melee, because 1. flurry is gravely situational w/o any noteworthy movement tricks 2. you'll have more important things to do if you want to account for its 11SS cost. I don't call it a slouch by any means, and accept if anyone try to capitalize on its melee abilities. But come on... Snowstorm can't be compared to the golem in this regard, and the 7SS+6SS definition is misleading. Why would it be 7ss worth of hitter in a faction that allows you to hire, say, LSA's for 5SS? On the other hand, Snowstorm still costs 11SS, so the aforementioned basis doesn't apply in a hitting-power-for-points-cost relation. /me stops derailing thread

I think you need extra vectors if you really want to justify 18 stones in 2 slow moving Def4 constructs. (Ways to heal or move or hide them, capitalize on them being Constructs, having the appropriate auxiliaries to make up for their weak spots etc.) In my opinion they are not in the same street in this regard... The golem is the archetype of the heavy hitter, while Snowstorm is not much of a hitter at all...

I'd even consider using the golem with Colette, probably in place of Cassandra, when I need an effective speed bump/bullet magnet that eases the pressure on the rest of the crew, one that's also able to deal out enough damage to make up for its 9SS cost.

Not sure, just thinking aloud, sort of. Henchmen-led crews are handicapped in many ways, IMO once they start playing the opponents' game they probably lose. Like lower division soccer clubs vs. first division clubs: sabotage the running game, foul, don't let the other team score at whatever cost, and possibly try to win on penalties. In Kaeris' case, that would mean high body count, simple but reliable mechanics and redundancy. Then you let your burning tokens, explodin constructs, disappearing miners etc. do the job. Of course I'm more asking than stating all that, because in most cases I play Kaeris with Arcanist masters, so my experience with her SF is seriously limited. But your list with Kang and the golem seemed to be a bit top-heavy to my taste, that's all