Okay, everyone lie down on the floor and keep calm!

[nerdelemental]

Once a game grows to a certain point it's pretty natural to hear more and more voices. They clamor about this and they clamor about that, and they generally cover a lot of territory.

That's good.

The forums have recently seen a lot of specific clamoring about model power and balance and whatnot. In another thread (I don't want to name names or point at any specific thread that may or may not be in the Resser forum...) a quick comment was made regarding "Developers seem unable or unwilling to make revision" and it's worth noting how ridiculous that is. First of all, the Wyrd Tophats have a pretty solid track record of listening to the player base to make bold revision of just about any model you, the forum players, have identified as problematic. We're really not shy about it. Even knowing that some players hate revision, we'd rather have models that are as balanced as they can be while retaining their unique contributions to the game.

However, what we do not do is immediately buck to the first person to say "OMG, this models is the suxxor!" and start printing off V5 cards to accommodate.

We're listening. We're taking notes. We're even fighting among ourselves in our super-secret Dev caves regarding issues brought up by you all or even some we've found ourselves.

In summary: keep talking. Feel free to criticize us or the game. We can handle it and we're listening. However, ridiculing others and their opinions is not necessary, it ends any enthusiasm we may have for the discussion, and pretty much ends everyone's positive dialogue. If there's an honest criticism like "Hey, Res seem like the weakest faction overall!" maybe dialogue what led you to think that. We work with examples, not opinion from players we may or may not even know.

Have fun playing!

[Dumb Luck]

Although my Gremlins are ace, they need more win. Can this be done?

Also, no more Nephs. Just to troll Neverata.

[Ratty]

Gremlins are full of win... Oh wait do you mean you want them to win more?

[Dumb Luck]

Gremlins are full of win... Oh wait do you mean you want them to win more?

Pretty much, yes.

And Nephs less.

[Omenbringer]

Definately have to support Nerdelemental, Wyrd has a demonstrated history of correcting imbalances. Even though it is sometimes slower than we would like, at least changes have only really needed to occur once.

I also agree with Dumb Luck, Gremlins will never win enough.

[Dumb Luck]

Serious thread about the hard work Wyrd does hiijacked by Gremlins. Nice.

[Omenbringer]

Gremlins have a long history of mussing things up at Wyrd, just look at all the "issues" that have been blamed on them over at Malifaux Bad Things Happen this year alone.

[edonil]

Personally, I'm all for discussion. The one nerdelemental cited had some good stuff in it, but it got really bad as people started to attack each other rather than discuss the topic. Still, always nice to know that Wyrd is watching...errr....listening.

[Keltheos]

Serious thread about the hard work Wyrd does hiijacked by Gremlins. Nice.

Gremlins get into everyting...

[LordZombie]

I have to say that the just released faq/errata should really prove that Wyrd and the guys (and gals) behind the book are listening. Designing a game is not easy, I know, I did it once. It takes playtesting, trying out ever kinda of combo you can think and all the combos everyone else can think of. There are always going to be models that are weak, some that are too strong, and some that no one would ever think of using. But in the end, it is really all about having fun.

[Bigmike]

Nerdelemental, thank you so much, i almost never post because i cant say nice things half the time. I just decide to win with the models that they say are "suxxor" (btw i give you props for saying that) and that's how i get back at the people who are never happy or who keep rage quitting (not pointing fingers at anyone who has quit before because of power balance come back and then decided to quit again for the same reason)

[Sandwich]

And again Wyrd does not cease to exceed expectations.

Thank you for your acknowledgement and I would like to be one of the first to say that I support the decision to shut down that thread due to a virulent argument that was only going to devolve further and further.

It was the reason I made absolutely no attempt to revive the topic.

If there's anything specific you'd need one so meanypoo as me for, I'll be right here, happy to oblige.

If not, I'll be pretty interested in following an extended thread of player-based opinions.

And maybe some official feedback.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Sandwich

[Joel]

I have yet to see a miniatures game company be anywhere as involved and responsive as Wyrd.

Still surprises me, to be honest

It's one of their greatest strengths, and demonstrates their love of their games, and their respect for their customers, better than anything else could. I know that I feel like part of the process rather than just a consumer.

Kudos to the top hats!

[Justin]

Although my Gremlins are ace, they need more win. Can this be done?

Also, no more Nephs. Just to troll Neverata.

Agreed.

More Gremlin Win.

Less Nephs.

Also, more trolling.

This post feels like it needs bullet points.

• More bullet points.
  

[Requirement]

This thread needs more Cthulhu :Cthulhu:

[Hateful Darkblack]

nerdelemenetal, you rock so hard it makes me dizzy.

[Twisted Metal]

I like seeing the top hats post. The last few days have been full of officials posting and commenting on threads. Its like they Eric J lets you guys out of isolation after he finished hid interview with Nix.

[Forar]

So now is when I should begin hyperventilating?

Wait, that's just because my wallet is in need of a critical injection of funds to cover the 1.5 main book (THANK YOU!), Warden(s?) and 3 new Terraclips sets in my future.

Look, if my girlfriend asks, just say "it's cardboard, how much could it possibly cost" and then pointedly walk away, claiming you have something important to be doing.

[Sandwich]

- - - -

This is 8 pages long, sorry.

- - - -

Alrighty then, since no one else is taking the iniative, I'll be the first to dive directly in and speak my peace.

Before I begin, let me state that

1.) This statement will be lengthy.

2.) This is MY personal observation, and the opinion I have generated based upon that observation.

3.) I am not attempting to offend or discredit ANYONE in the following statement.

4.) I will do my very best to provide credible examples and sound reasoning.

5.) I will make my statements from an honest standpoint. (No more of this "The Dead Rider is just OK bullcrap. Promise.)

THE MISSION STATEMENT

I'm going to skip some big huge debunking statement about how I don't think Faction to Faction balance can't work, because that is semantics and has absolutely no bearing on the topic at hand.

I will jump directly to the root of the problem.

In the first book, the design philosophy, for all five factions was

1.) The 'Heavy Hitter': Lady Justice, McMourning, Ramos, Lilith, the Victorias.

2.) The "Technical Caster": Sonia Criid, Nicodem, Rasputina, Pandora, Leveticus

3.) The "Support": Perdita, Seamus, Marcus, Zoraida, Som'er

The Heavy Hitters design was simple. A powerful standalone model that did little to bolster its crew beyond several offhand debuffs. Ramos was unique in this group as he wasn't as powerful a caster as Rasputina, and not reliant on his crew as Marcus. This makes him the Heavy Hitter as he's a decent tank with a high damage cap.

The Technical Caster was a weaker model that required a crew to use its most advanced tactics and worked best if Activated in order to assassinate a specific model or augment the utility of other models in its crew. Pandora is unique in this group because she can act decently as a Heavy Hitter but benefits better from relying on her crew than Lilith.

The Support was designed from the ground up to serve their crew. Everything in their arsenal was specifically created with the models they would bring with them and, if used in tandem with their crew, became a very, very powerful force to be reckoned with. Perdita is unique in this group because she works strongly as a Heavy Hitter but was nigh unstoppable if you brought in the Family.

With that 'triune' if you will, you had harmonious balance between all three groups, evenly dispersed into 5 factions that became the root of balance. Faction to Faction was nothing more than an idea put on top of this triune.

With the advent of the second book, you introduced 5 hybrid models, most of which had enough strengths and weaknesses to create a harmony inside of their own faction, except Kirai.

Here is where you went wrong and I will spell out exactly what happened to create the imbalance currently being discussed.

AGAIN

THIS IS MY OPINION, AND MY OBSERVATION

Just because I believe this to be true, does NOT make it true.

I'll be writing in Kirai last, so bear with me as I go through exactly why the rest of the book works.

With C.Hoffman, you added a Support / Technical Caster.

He NEEDS his crew, but his spells are SO powerful that if he didn't have a 5 Ca, he'd be OP. C. Hoffman works great in the guild because he's limited to Constructs, and his Constructs aren't limited to synergy with him. His power comes from the massive damage and control he gains when you build his crew correctly.

With the Dreamer, you added a Support / Heavy Hitter.

He brings a lot to the table, but in doing so, works well with a fraction of the models in his faction. This is fine because his model pool allows for numerous different strategies and builds, all of which bring powerful limitations to certain aspects of his arsenal.

One of the major issues I've had with the Neverborn in Rising Powers is that they're all SO synergetic with everyone (Collodi is the only one whose limited).

The Neverborn by far gained the most as a faction from Rising Powers.

The Arcanists gained a Support / Technical Caster in Colette.

The reason Colette works so well is because he strengths are well defined, and her weaknesses are spelled out blatantly.

She's very quick, but very frail and deals little actual damage.

The best part of Colette, and the reason why she's my favorite addition to the game (Ever) is that her models are clearly defined as to who works good with who in the faction outside of Colette.

The Outcasts are a strange faction because we cannot consider Hamelin as a gain for them, as he is entirely self contained and has zero interaction with Levi, Viks or Som'er.

In that, we actually have to look at the specific models they received (They all got something.)

So for Levi, we have Ashes and Dust.

A self reproducing tank / heavy damage that comes with some added support.

I am NOT a Levi player and could not honestly spell out for you the pros and cons of the Ashes and Dust, only that EVERY single time I've EVER faced one, it's always had a huge impact on the game.

For the Viktorias, we have the Freikorps.

Do I need to say anything else? Yes, but only because I said I would.

With Von Schill you have a high mobility, high damage, high survival support model. He in and of himself is the most diverse model in the game.

With his Freikorps, you gain mostly low damage, decent mobility and high survivability to make up for a lot of the glass cannon models in a Vicky list.

The Freikorps are a powerful and worthwhile addition but aside from Von Schill, move fairly slowly and have very low damage over multiple models.

They also bring limited Support via the Librarian, though she is a nice model to have, she's got some clear drawbacks if you don't bring the Freikorps with her.

For Som'er we've got the Pigapult, the Slop Hauler, the Taxidermist and Oph-

The Pigapult brings in excellent damage, the Slop Hauler is a healer and the Taxidermist is a powerful technical caster.

Though Som'er is so diverse in the ways he can build an army, some players may find one or more of these models to be worthless, while another player will deem them the crown jewel of the green horde.

All of that said, and with the previous masters specifically mentioned,

With Kirai, the Resurrectionist faction gained a Support.

She has NO offensive power, she has a single debuff spell, and he personal defenses aren't all that great.

There's no hybridization to her stat card, she's a flat out support master.

Now, if you've read anything up to this point, you'll see that I've stated all other factions (Barring Outcasts) have received a Master who combines two of the three elements flawlessly into their Faction and thus did not disrupt the balance of the game at all.

By giving Kirai the role of Support (You most likely didn't even think of the Triune your other masters have fallen into until later) you create a fairly massive cunundrum.

You see, when you designed Seamus, you already had McMourning and Nicodem in mind, meaning that when creating his 'models' you were able to introduce them into the Model Pool seamlessly because all three masters already had defined uses for everything.

(If Nico needs a tank, who is he going to summon, a Belle or a Punk Zombie?)

Now my guess was that you wanted to introduce more Spirits and Kirai became a byproduct of that, and that you didn't write up Kirai's card and then make spirits around her, but more of you developed the entire group of spirits together.

And it shows that you did this, and that you really do have prestige because frankly Kirai, as a standalone master with an intended crew, is flawless.

She has powerful drawbacks to her extremely high mobility and synergy, she's got clear counters but also has every tool necessary to bring about a grisly end to her enemies.

It was in that specific philosophy that things went awry.

Because you made Kirai as a Support, you had to give her models to support, giving her things like Datsue-ba, Ikiryo, Shikome, or Gaki were all really good decisions, for Kirai.

What you forgot about was the rest of the faction, or, more likely, you thought that players would find a compromise with the models because they were spirits.

This is because Spirit is a VERY powerful trait and, I'm guessing here again, that you figured the lower synergy with the other masters would be balanced out by the fact that they were getting Spirits.

Unfortunately, most of Kirai's spirits were passed up by players, (A LOT of us were eager to get our grubby hands on Shikome, but they just didn't work so well without Kirai.) and that led to the Faction inadvertantly falling behind.

If you look at the book you'll find exactly 6 models in the plethora NOT designed for Kirai (5 if you ignore Molly, 4 if you don't count the Necrotic Machine.)

Those models are

Molly Squidpiddge: At the time of her release, a lot of us couldn't find a place for her. It wasn't our fault, either. When you look at Collodi, who has a very clear playstyle, or Von Schill, who has a very powerful standalone statcard, we weren't remotely at fault.

My personal belief is that Molly is currently the most "Support" oriented model in the game and that we, as players, are simply not utilizing her in the best possible way.

The reason for that, however, is that 9 times out of ten, there's no reason to spend Stones on her when we can just take Von Schill and get far more apparent results.

I'm probably not the only person, however, that's realized that as a Support model, she will become increasingly powerful as more of her crew is fleshed out.

Necrotic Machine: An interesting concept for a Totem, but fell short even with the ability to instagib. Two Corpse Counters was just not worth it to most people, although I personally find it to be a great model, others don't.

Dead Rider: Absolutely amazing and ridiculously powerful. One of the biggest slaps to the face to the faction I've ever felt is the fact that it drops 2 Scrap Counters for Leveticus instead of 2 Corpse Counters for Seamus, Nicodem, and McMourning. I see no reason for it to be this way and would strongly enjoy it if the Dead Rider dropped 2 Corpse, 1 Scrap.

Guild Autopsy: I fully understand the concept of this model, I'd figured it out before Rafkin as well. It's an easy-to-summon hamstick with morderate damage. The problem is that it's mortality rate is around 150% that of what it should be and it returns NOTHING when it dies.

To fix this model

Remove the Soul Stone Cost, make it Summonable.

Remove the Corpse Counter limitation on Too Far Gone and get rid of the restriction on its Guard Pistol to allow Nicodem to buff them.

By doing this, you create a reliable Weak Model that Nicodem can summon in a pinch to counter heavy ranged crews (Like Von Schill) at a decent cost, as well as allowing McMourning to bolster his ranks with weak ranged models that won't leave him super starved if he decides to take him.

There's no way in its current incarnation that this model should exist in the same book as the Alp or Malifaux Rat, period.

Night Terror: Amazing objective grabbers. Frankly, the Dreamer doesn't deserve them, but I understand why you let him have them.

Rogue Necromancy: This one baffles me because its purpose is clear and its built perfectly to achieve it.

Perhaps I've just always seen the cards favor the opponent because this model seems far too frail to be 10 points and yet everything about it screams "This thing is freakin' perfect."

The only thing I could even remotely think of doing is somehow reducing its Soul Stone Cost, but honestly, I can't see why you'd do that.

:crows:crows:crows

So after Book 2 had enough time to set over, I was honestly coming to terms with the emptiness in the Second book for progressive Resurrectionist models, and felt that Avatars would be a great balance, which they were, kind of.

For the Resurrectionist Faction, the Avatars are fairly balanced.

I think they all define themselves fairly severely and there isn't much anyone can say besides an applause for how well you managed to pull it off.

That said, the Avatars still don't bring the overall power of the faction up any higher.

(Except Nicodem, holy s**** he's insane.)

I won't say a word about Avatars because you did them perfectly.

(Although you could give Seamus his 4 Df back...;D)

The third book is a bit perplexing because it honestly looks like there is no discernable "pattern."

I mean obviously you fleshed out the Special Forces a little bit but beyond that you gave everyone a little bit of everything.

... Except the Resurrectionists.

Now, and anyone on these forums can go ahead and quote me on this, but I'm pretty serious about figuring out models, I started multiple Dead Doxy threads, I worked out one of the few successful Crooligan strategies, and I've defended Wyrd about balance before,

But my honest question, expecting an honest and absolute serious answers, is

What was the idea behind the Crooligans?

Where do you, whoever designed them, see that they should fit?

What spot in the game do they belong in your eyes?

And don't use my "Model-bogs" idea unless that was sincerely how you envisioned them.

Crooligans aside for the moment,

Dead Doxy: I like the thematic idea of these girls and I believe what happened was that in production, someone said "Look guys, these things are summonable! To which someone replied "OH CRAP cuddle EM!"

I say this because for all the things they are capable of, they achieve very little.

They're ineffective tanks, they have unreliable debuffs, their mobility is as subpar as Belles, and keeping with the Resurrectionist Credo, their Ranged Attacks 'suxx0rz.'

I think when they were initially rolled out to playtesters, they were sent with a smaller package of more powerful tools and had to be slowly transformed to be balanced around the summoning mechanic.

Which is problematic considering how most models in the game do not drop Corpse Counters.

I think that if Fate favors you, these Doxies are fantastic, but unlike many other models from other factions, if Fate does not look upon you kindly, they just do nothing.

I won't propose a fix because I don't think it is they that are broken, only that Seamus' current underwhelming nature is causing them to feel weaker than they actually are.

The Drowned: Much cheaper Spirits that were obviously designed with McM/ Nico / Seamus in mind, and by in mind I mean

-They're far too slow for even Nicodem.

- They're focused on Damage, which we don't need.

- They have unnecessary movement shenanigans.

I'd much rather them have one clearly defined purpose and then forsake all else because currently they're on par with Crooked Men in usefulness.

Jaakune Ubeme: Works best with Kirai. She's very slow otherwise and that makes using her to her fullest very difficult.

This isn't a flaw in design either, as she's probably fantastic with Kirai and making her any faster would break her when used with that crew.

And it's perfectly fine to give Kirai a new toy or two, anyway.

Rafkin: A Support model, which makes his shining traits difficult to see on paper. But having played him, I have several points I feel I need to make.

1.) For a 7 Point model, his survivability is low. Ending his Activation on a (0)Action that heals two wounds is just outright stupid and makes no sense when you look at Rafkin side by side with the Guild's Witchling Handler, another Support oriented model.

Where the Witchling Handler drastically buffs her Stalkers, Rafkin... Heals zombies.

2.) Rafkin also suffers from the Poor Molly Girl syndrome with his summon.

The two masters interested in him can already summon what he can, for the same cards, costing less AP and accomplishing a lot more.

Why spend 7 Soul Stones for a single bonus summon when you can just spend those stones on the models you want to summon instead?

3.) His interactions with poison seem interesting and I'd like to see something like that fleshed out, as I feel the Poison mechanic could become an integral part of Resurrectionists as a large part of their design philosophy is "Atrophy."

I feel there is nothing more atrophied than slowly dying to poison.

In fact, a Minion (Maybe another Henchmen) that liberally spread poison would be a really unique idea.

3.) He's got more of the "I have a ton of crap, but none of it really works." problem that the Crooligans have.

He can heal himself pretty OK. Rafkin can also heal the dead, but not really. He can summon, and he's pretty OK at it with his (1)Preserve Bodies, but not really.

I suppose his (1)Forestall Decomposition could have some serious implications if you really needed it, but there are cheaper models in other factions with the same support-oriented kit that acomplish a lot more than Rafkin can.

An idea

Change Forestall Decomposition's name to Embalm, give him an spell that gives allies Mithridization, peg on the Discard factor somewhere and I think he'd be a pretty unique model.

- -

I'm not sure if Rafkin suffers from the same thing the Doxies do, but I'm fairly sure that he himself is actually underwhelming.

- - -

As for the Carrion Effigy, who I honestly don't think is actually a Resurrectionist model, since it was clearly designed for the Neverborn.

It's Spell is very powerful, but its so easy to kill that it doesn't matter.

:crows:rams:tomes:masks

Now honestly, I should just end it here and ignore people who don't read it, but I feel its unfair to expect people to read 5 pages of my opinion.

So instead,

Basically, everyone in the first book fell into one of three categories, The Heavy Hitter, the Caster, and the Support.

When Wyrd released Rising Powers, all the Book 2 masters (Except Kirai) were designed as hybrids (I.e. The Dreamer was a Heavy Hitter / Support. Colette was a Support / Technical Caster)

This made a really, really great balance because all of those masters had 2 really big strengths, and 2 really big drawbacks, except Kirai.

If you look at Kirai's card, she's a 100% Support.

When Wyrd was making her, they had to make models for her to support, so we end up with a bunch of spirits designed specifically for her instead of a ton of models designed for the faction and that was the point where the Ressers started to fall behind.

Book 3, I have no explanation for Crooligans, sorry.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Sandwich

[Keltheos]

I like seeing the top hats post. The last few days have been full of officials posting and commenting on threads. Its like they Eric J lets you guys out of isolation after he finished hid interview with Nix.

I'm still locked in the dungeon with 5 minutes a day for fresh air and exercise. Bowen doesn't really 'work' as much as he 'gloms on' so he's pretty much always around.

[Rathnard]

That's a considerable chunk of reading Sandwich. I gave it a quick read through and you have some interesting points. It's going to take some time for me to digest this but the first points that came into my mind where;

1. I'd actually consider Ramos the Technical Caster and Raspy the Heavy Hitter. Overall though, it's an interesting approximation of the roles each Master falls into but I don't think they can truely be categorised that simply. For instance Marcus should come under all three categories, which is why he's considered one of the "weakest" Masters (since he doesn't do any one thing as well as any other Master).

2. I've actually always thought of the Carrion Effigy as the one Doll who's much better in Resser crews than the Neverborn. It is the one Effigy I wouldn't consider buying for my Neverborn.

In any case, the above isn't really relevant to the arguement you're making. This however, is;

As above, I don't agree that the Masters can be categorised so easily into Heavy Hitter, Support and Technical. There is so much more to how they function, the least of which is their mobility, resiliance and reliance on synergies with other models.

BUT...

...I think you make a very good point about what Kirai's role as a Support Master did to the Resser faction in book 2. She needed spirits to support and with a few exceptions, the Book 1 Resser Masters want minions that are undead and preferably dropped corpse counters.

For the other factions, most of the new minions associated with their new Master were still valid options for the old Masters. Each faction also had some new models for the old Masters, but in the case of the Ressers those particular minions (Molly & totem, Guild Autopsies and Rogue Necros, right?) were perhaps a little underwhelming.

So pulling this together, the sub-par Book 2 minions together with Kirai's Spirits would have had the overall effect of putting the initial Resser Masters one book behind the other factions, in terms of the synergistic options they had available for building a crew.

So overall Sandwich, while I still believe that the Ressers are still a capable and competitive faction, I have to admit that you're probably on to something here...

Edited June 12, 2012 by Rathnard

[nix]

@Sandwich - I am still digesting your post, but will say it is well written. I have one question regarding your opinion on Kirai. Why do you consider Ikyrio separate from Kirai and not part of her? I would consider him part of her model design and the "heavy hitting" portion of that design based on the fact he can only be brought out with Kirai. When looked at in that light, wouldn't that make Kirai a dual Support/Heavy Hitter in your paradigm?

[Gruesome]

I liked your write-up very much Sandwich. The tone and information are much more conducive to a good conversation. And you didn't rag on my Dead Rider this time. *wink*

I would also want to add one thing about design in general that I noticed in the video-game industry.

For a long time, the playing communities of various games would clamor about balance issues while some companies either outright told them that they were wrong and just did not know better or at least implied that they didn't in various ways.

I felt that way about Bungie and Halo's online game modes for a long time with weapon spawn locations and game types.

Its only more recently where video-gaming has evolved an actual "professional" class of players that actually play video games for a living (See: Starcraft and League of Legends for two large examples) that some gaming companies have started embracing the views of people that, quite frankly, played the games much more frequently and competitively than the designers and creators. Even Halo wound up embracing many of the MLG game types and recognizing that the top players could endlessly exploit things that the designers and testers never dreamed of.

I am NOT saying that Wyrd does not take feedback at all. Quite the opposite, I think that for a company of this sort, that Wyrd stands at the top of the heap in terms of responsiveness and reaction to the community.

Sometimes it just FEELS slower than some of us might be accustomed to when compared to a genre like video games. But, It NEEDS to be slower because unlike a game that could be patched monthly, weekly or even DAILY, a company that prints HARDCOPY BOOKS and CARDS cannot knee-jerk anything and has to make very surgical changes that will not make things worse through unforeseen circumstances.

I will say that I do get frustrated when I am told that I am simply "playing the game wrong" because I want a faction whose name is about resurrecting things to, you know, resurrect things a LOT.

Am I overall frustrated? Not even close. 90% of my playtime now is NON-tournament. (Unlike last year when tournaments were the only time I had to time to put models on the table)

And when not in a tournament against much better players (which for me is 95% of the reason for my losses, NOT my faction of choice), I do just fine. (But I still hate the Watchers)

[rancor709]

Im working through it all but ressers as a whole outside of karia are a house divided. They can exist and doeven be played competitivly. However they are fighting with a hand behind the back. Resser are card and initiative dependant more so than other factions and cards are so focused on high crows the synergy is limited. I love my undead hordes but fully admit they are only consistent at being inconsistent. 8 like that element anx work to minimize it. However its counter productive in a competitive environment.

[Sandwich]

That's a considerable chunk of reading Sandwich. I gave it a quick read through and you have some interesting points. It's going to take some time for me to digest this but the first points that came into my mind where;

1. I'd actually consider Ramos the Technical Caster and Raspy the Heavy Hitter. Overall though, it's an interesting approximation of the roles each Master falls into but I don't think they can truely be categorised that simply. For instance Marcus should come under all three categories, which is why he's considered one of the "weakest" Masters (since he doesn't do any one thing as well as any other Master).

2. I've actually always thought of the Carrion Effigy as the one Doll who's much better in Resser crews than the Neverborn. It is the one Effigy I wouldn't consider buying for my Neverborn.

In any case, the above isn't really relevant to the arguement you're making. This however, is;

As above, I don't agree that the Masters can be categorised so easily into Heavy Hitter, Support and Technical. There is so much more to how they function, the least of which is their mobility, resiliance and reliance on synergies with other models.

BUT...

...I think you make a very good point about what Kirai's role as a Support Master did to the Resser faction in book 2. She needed spirits to support and with a few exceptions, the Book 1 Resser Masters want minions that are undead and preferably dropped corpse counters.

For the other factions, most of the new minions associated with their new Master were still valid options for the old Masters. Each faction also had some new models for the old Masters, but in the case of the Ressers those particular minions (Molly & totem, Guild Autopsies and Rogue Necros, right?) were perhaps a little underwhelming.

So pulling this together, the sub-par Book 2 minions together with Kirai's Spirits would have had the overall effect of putting the initial Resser Masters one book behind the other factions, in terms of the synergistic options they had available for building a crew.

So overall Sandwich, while I still believe that the Ressers are still a capable and competitive faction, I have to admit that you're probably on to something here...

You could be right about that, but I don't think Rasputina has any chance of standing alone against her opponents, whereas Ramos can pop out Spiders or Electrical creations and is quite tanky for some reason.

And Marcus could probably fit into any of the three categories, most masters could.

The best way to dictate which role they fill the most is to put them side by side with the other two, though.

Marcus NEEDS beasts, doesn't hit as hard as Raspy / Ramos, and can't cast all the mean nasties that Raspy can, so his overall best role is that of a support.

I won't argue with you over that point though, because I'm not that good of a Marcus player.

@Sandwich - I am still digesting your post, but will say it is well written. I have one question regarding your opinion on Kirai. Why do you consider Ikyrio separate from Kirai and not part of her? I would consider him part of her model design and the "heavy hitting" portion of that design based on the fact he can only be brought out with Kirai. When looked at in that light, wouldn't that make Kirai a dual Support/Heavy Hitter in your paradigm?

I consider the Ikiryo a seperate minion for 3 reasons.

1.) It takes resources to attain. Where if you take the Dreamer, you instantly have LCB, at no cost and with no choice.

2.) It has its own seperate Activation. Kirai and the Ikiryo have no way to Companion and both get full access to all of their AP.

3.) Losing it causes little to no actual harm to Kirai. While she will need to summon another Ikiryo eventually, and that'll cost 4 Wd, she doesn't really suffer if things get out of hand.

Ikiryo is a lot more like Nix than Kirai's LCB in that it is exclusive to her, has the limitations of a minion (No Soulstone use) and acts as an entirely seperate entity.