toning down the dreamer

[letsallchant]

just an idea i had to possibly tone down the dreamer... instead of being able to start with up to 3 daydreams, i wonder if it would be nice if he could start with only one (or even none...) and instead have to summon more of them in game. this would mean he has less SS for chewing things up (due to SS cost of summon, as well as less nightmares being hired in small games), and gives the other crew a turn or two in which to position or go for strategies and schemes before chompy can sling his way across the table... might even force you to fight fair if the opponent is fairly quick and has strats and schemes that work in their favour...

i might even try playing dreamer this way myself just to see how it pans out

[Mike3838]

Or even just make them Rare 2 instead of 3 and force the Dreamer to be a little more cautious. Nice idea, I like it. Let us know how it pans out!

Mike

[CN the Logos]

He can get to the enemy deployment zone with one Daydream and return to his deployment zone after he hits but before the other player can respond with two. The third is pretty much superfluous. But yes, without at least two Daydreams, the Dreamer is basically a stronger but slower version of Collodi with a wider crew selection. Strong, but not much more game breaking than a well played Lilith or Zoraida. Nightmares still include some of the best minions in the game, and he's designed to support them, so he wouldn't suck by any means.

I'm actually thinking of playing him like this for friendly games with my girlfriend; so I can learn his rules better without the potential negative play experience that comes from pitting what is possibly the most ludicrous master in the game against Rasputina. I'll let the forum know how it goes when I've played a few games.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think you correctly identify the biggest problem with the Dreamer, the synergy he gains from his daydreams, but fail to go far enough. Limiting the Dreamer to just two Daydreams doesn't fix him, because most Chompy lists only take two to begin with. If you do some Searching there were a number of suggested fixes to Chompy awhile back.

[Q'iq'el]

If you limit him to two but allow none to be hired, you actually force the Dreamer player to spend Cards and AP (not to mention Soulstones) to get both Daydreams early. If he fails to do so, he has only one or none and that is not enough to conduct his hit and run attacks.

In the best case, for the Dreamer player, he can conduct his first hit and run in turn 2 rather than turn 1.

In the worst case (bad draws, poor flips for the summon) he starts in turn 3 or 4, which gives the opponent half or more of the game to prepare and secure some of the objectives. Obviously the Dreamer would have to play in a more classic way during these turns, or he'll simply won't have enough time to make up for the lost turns.

I think it is an idea at least worth testing as a house-rule. Who knows, perhaps it works better? I'd even speculate you don't have to limit Daydreams to 2 if you make it impossible to hire them and force the Dreamer to summon them after the game starts.

[Math Mathonwy]

Aye, making Daydreams unhireable should limit Dreamer quite a bit. As a bonus, you don't need a real rules change since you can play that way by choice, so no true houseruling needed, just taking on a personal challenge.

A good idea!

[letsallchant]

for a bit of extra chilli in your dreamer burrito, play the 'all done' trigger as its worded in the book... you have to hit to activate the trigger.

hell throw in some fixes to the bury mechanic consider him fixed imo

[Mike3838]

Ersonally I've never had trouble with taking out a Daydream on turn 1 after the chompy strike. It's not easy for him to get it back into cover afterwards (the one that activated first). This was my reasoning for limiting to 2, as he'd then be down to one and limited mobility (or the same mobility but without a safety net) until he could summon more.

Another possibility: Any Daydreams must start the game buried. Prevents Turn 1 deep alpha strike and so gives the opponent a turn to position more effectively.

Mike

[rancor709]

What specifics of bury would you change?

[nilus]

The problem comes down to, if Wyrd changes how day dreams work(especially hiring) you get a lot of angry players complaining about Cuddling a model they bought 3 of. Like when they changed Alps and people who bought 9 of them were upset.

I don't think the problem is hitting something across the board, its the ability to yoyo back. I think a better solution involves either modifying the way there companion mechanic works or limiting there ability to cast frightening dreams(I think that is the spell that summons a nightmare model)

[CN the Logos]

for a bit of extra chilli in your dreamer burrito, play the 'all done' trigger as its worded in the book... you have to hit to activate the trigger.

hell throw in some fixes to the bury mechanic consider him fixed imo

There are other people who'd know better than I, but I think limiting Daydreams to one hired (others must be summoned) and requiring a hit for All Done would do the trick. Depending on the inevitable fixes to Bury, that may end up being too much Cuddling, but as it stands I think that'd work.

The problem comes down to, if Wyrd changes how day dreams work(especially hiring) you get a lot of angry players complaining about Cuddling a model they bought 3 of. Like when they changed Alps and people who bought 9 of them were upset.

I don't think there'll be as big a backlash for Daydreams, since they come three to a pack and the majority opinion in this thread seems to be to allow multiples, but not during hiring. Also, Alp Bomb was truly degenerate and I don't feel sorry for the people who ran it.

I don't think the problem is hitting something across the board, its the ability to yoyo back.

Agreed, although Lelus in your face turn one is still really, really good.

I think a better solution involves either modifying the way there companion mechanic works or limiting there ability to cast frightening dreams(I think that is the spell that summons a nightmare model)

The problem with Cuddling Companion or Magical Extention is that those are universal mechanics; cuddles to them end up Cuddling everyone. Unless you want to modify the way Companion's affected by the Dreamer/Chompy switch over, but that seems like it would be incredibly complicated and far more trouble than it's worth.

Edited March 15, 2012 by CN the Logos

[nilus]

What specifics of bury would you change?

Thats an easy one(but not the point of this thread). Buried models should still participate in the closing phase.

[mattbird]

just take away companion from the daydreams- problems solved.

[Sybaris]

I already suggested reducing the numbers of daydreams, but as pointed out before, the real problem is the bury/unbury mechanic.

[CannonFodder]

Thats an easy one(but not the point of this thread). Buried models should still participate in the closing phase.

This to me is the biggest thing needed. Most of the player in LGS don't abuse this, but I think its the single biggest issue in the rules. I think they should do that first, check the feedback on that then contemplate other changes. Too many simultaneous changes wil cause too many unforeseen impacts, which may lead to bigger issues.

[letsallchant]

i would hate to see them change the core mechanics of the dreamer. i think taking away companion or limiting the amount of burys, or other stuff like that would basically ruin him. i think he should be able to disappear allover the place like he does currently. however i think it should cost more in terms of activations/turns, cost more in terms of resources like stones/cards, and have more general risk involved.

by playing the all done trigger as written in the book, it makes things alot riskier. instead of just needing any tome to make a strategic withdrawl, you need a high tome, which is alot harder. also this creates a point in the whole thing your opponent can exploit to disrupt the chain, if you cheat down a ten of tomes then they pull out a thirteen and you miss, it can end quite badly for old chompy. of course you can always soulstone, but having to burn soulstones to escape means less you can exploit to rip your opponents to bits.

if you are forced to summon one or two daydreams in-game, then that effectively reduces your available cache to 6 or 4 respectively. that is huge... i think what makes chompy so dangerous is he can so easily turn soulstones into dead models. not to mention you now have a 'wind up time' of one or two turns where you either sit and do nothing, or use some part of your crew 'normally' while the dreamer makes daydreams. this would depend on strats of schemes, and add some more dimensions to play... can you afford to sit in your deployment zone in a shared treasure hunt?? you will need to send some nightmares forward, but this also means you cant drop them on your opponent later on without some difficulty.

in regards to bury, i think nilus has it spot on. however i dont actually exploit this particular thing anyway, as its a bit too cheesy for my tastes. still it would be a step forward for sure i think

anyway, this is IMHO as a dreamer player the best way to tone him down but keep his unique style. and as people have pointed out, you dont need to change any rules, you can voluntarily play him in such as fashion anytime you choose. you could take him to a tourney and play him this way if you felt like it! i would love to hear any feedback from people who use him like this!! its true you dont want to cuddle too much, but this is why its so good to playtest things like this and share the results!

[Fetid Strumpet]

I actually like the idea of requiring the Dreamer to summon his Daydreams, not just hire them straight out, as it addresses all the things I really think push Chompy over the top. I'd need to play test it extensively however before I could really get behind it, b ut it has the ease of being the smallest change to the rules.

[tadaka]

All place effects set to base contact.

[Fading Memory]

I brought up the Idea of limiting the Daydreams to 2 a while back but no one seemed to notice :'( By limiting them to 2, he can still sling shot across the board but if things go wrong (like if All Done becomes based on Damage), he is stranded and things will go horribly, horribly wrong for the Dreamer. Doing the Alpha strike becomes a calculated risk that wont always work and will backfire. It backfires because if All Done doesn't go off, Chompy just summons a daydream to pull him out of danger. With a limit of two Daydreams, that last resort option would no longer be viable.

But with any rules change, officials need to be play testing and play testing and play testing. Wyrd is aware of the concerns and they monitor these forums so are aware of how the populace feels and all the ideas that have ben given. Wyrd takes their work seriously and are not going to rush a quick fix for anything. In any decision they make for any and all concerns (their's or the player's), they want it to be in the best interest of the game. Any change, no matter how small or big can have far reaching implications that we cannot foresee.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Fading Memory

[Fetid Strumpet]

I personally don't think limiting the Daydreams to 2 fixes anything, as most lists that abuse the slingshot only use 2 to begin with.

[letsallchant]

leave it at 3, but make him summon them is better i think, because then to get three out would be a huge drain on his resources, most people wouldnt want to do that. but then nobody can claim their three daydreams models have become useless

with the all done trigger changed to bring it into line with most other stuff, you might still want to get out 3 daydreams if you happen to be really starved for tomes for some reason

[Kadeton]

My solution would be to make Frightening Dream unbury only non-Master Nightmares. The Dreamer would need to use Nightmare Friend instead to bring Chompy out, and the Daydreams would need to use Call Nightmares or Change into Nightmare. You could still do a version of the Chompy sling, but it would require sacrificing a Daydream every time, which seems like a decent balance.

[Fading Memory]

My solution would be to make Frightening Dream unbury only non-Master Nightmares. The Dreamer would need to use Nightmare Friend instead to bring Chompy out, and the Daydreams would need to use Call Nightmares or Change into Nightmare. You could still do a version of the Chompy sling, but it would require sacrificing a Daydream every time, which seems like a decent balance.

That is a really good idea.

[letsallchant]

another good idea, the only problem i think is you can still take 3 daydreams and slingshot chompy with impunity in the first two turns, by the third turn there might not be enough of an enemy crew left to even bother returning chompy on the third run... alternatively if you havent done enough damage by then, spend the third turn to summon a fourth daydream, then slingshot again in the fourth. that would still leave you three slings in four turns and six soulstones to eat faces with.

i think the worst part of the whole chompy move is that the opponent has to deploy in such a limited way to avoid getting wrecked. its just no fun if your game is so limited before you even start to play i think.

but even so its definitely worth a playtest for sure! or even the two daydreams changes together, but i think that might take it too far. then again it might not, the only way to really know is to try this stuff out and talk to your opponent. does he still start crying, then projectile vomit and pass out at the end of the third turn? does your LGS still lock the door and act like its closed when they see you approach? do people still throw bricks at your house in the middle of the night etc...

let us know how you go anyway... i like it because you can again just choose to play this way and be considered with the rules, you dont need to make any special agreements with your opponent or anything.

[Ledgem]

I have a question. I have yet to see the actual card, only the book. When I heard "All done" could be done automatically I was very confused. the book says it not only needs to hit but also DAMAGE the enemy. Why was this changed on the card? It would make the slingshot a risk/reward instead of a "no reason not to do this" and making attacking enemies with Use Soulstone a lot tougher (oh I flipped moderate on damage prevention, sorry no trigger for you). It seems very silly to me.