Wanted: A Boy Named Sue info

[nilus]

Guys guys guys.

This is an easy debate to end. I submit this simple proof

Guitar = Awesome.

Awesome > Any old hulk hogan mustached man or fat convicts

Thus

Sue + Guitar > Any old hulk hogan mustached man or fat convicts

[Necromorph]

So because I used a censored curse word I'm "worked up", haha, no. Trying to explain away the issue by saying "oh but you get x, y, and z things that you didn't want/need" isn't exactly going to bring a big 'ol smile to my face either...it's the response not the issue at hand.

Sure it's IMO extremely unnecessary to put those kinds of limitations in, but if "everyone" in the Outcasts community is cool with it, then I guess that's how it'll roll. I just personally don't enjoy our limited faction being more limited.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Necromorph

[nilus]

So because I did a censored curse word I'm "worked up", haha, no. Trying to explain away the issue by saying "oh but you get x, y, and z things that you didn't want" isn't exactly going to bring a big 'ol smile to my face either.

You could just choose not to use him. I mean just a week ago you didn't even know he exists and now you are mad he won't work for you.

I mean either

A) He is SO AWESOME! Then having to use him instead of some other models wouldn't matter

or

He is okay. Then not being able to use him wouldn't hurt so much.

I know there are shades of grey there but in the end he isn't the end all be all model. When book 4 comes out I will bug sKeTcH to make sure the Willie Nelson outcast will only work for models with ruthless, lifer or who give him weed.

[Necromorph]

My point, as I said before, is that I feel the decision to limit his hiring within the faction is completely unnecessary. How would the neverborn community feel if the a new doll came out that couldn't be used by Collodi, a Woe that couldn't be used by pandora, or a new Ortega for Guild not being able to be used with Perdita. Sure I'm a bit biased due to enjoying the model and my disappointment, but I don't think my opinion is unreasonable or coming out of left field in any way.

The point is that the Outcasts faction is already extremely divided, and the separate masters' minions don't really work together...unlike the majority of models in other factions. IMO making the already divided faction even more divided, IMO, isn't the way to go...did I mention this was my opinion already?

I'll just back off this thread , as it's obvious everyone is too gaga over the "Johnny Cash" themed model to take any sort of criticism. "OMG, someone said something negative about a book 3 model....attack attack attack!!!!!" Hahahaha.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I'll just back off this thread , as it's obvious everyone is too gaga over the "Johnny Cash" themed model to take any sort of criticism. "OMG, someone said something negative about a book 3 model....attack attack attack!!!!!" Hahahaha.

It's not about your criticism. It's your delivery of said criticism.

Criticism is always welcome. Just keep an eye on your delivery.

[CannibalBob]

Awesome > Any old hulk hogan mustached man or fat convicts

I thought Hulk Hogan was the wellspring from which all awesome originated?

I mean, he did body-slam Andre the Giant after all....

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_m1qTfJsFI[/ame]

[jmp_mydog]

My point, as I said before, is that I feel the decision to limit his hiring within the faction is completely unnecessary. How would the neverborn community feel if the a new doll came out that couldn't be used by Collodi, a Woe that couldn't be used by pandora, or a new Ortega for Guild not being able to be used with Perdita. Sure I'm a bit biased due to enjoying the model and my disappointment, but I don't think my opinion is unreasonable or coming out of left field in any way.

The point is that the Outcasts faction is already extremely divided, and the separate masters' minions don't really work together...unlike the majority of models in other factions. IMO making the already divided faction even more divided, IMO, isn't the way to go...did I mention this was my opinion already?

I dunno to me the Outcasts don't really qualify as a Faction. They're really just all the random stuff that happens outside of the big four. And as such you don't tend to have as much synergy or are limited to your smaller band of mischief makers.

[LoboStele]

I dunno to me the Outcasts don't really qualify as a Faction. They're really just all the random stuff that happens outside of the big four. And as such you don't tend to have as much synergy or are limited to your smaller band of mischief makers.

I agree 100%.

I think that's probably where I disagree with Necromorph the most. I don't really see the Outcasts as a faction that are supposed to work together. I mean, by all accounts, as mercenaries, they would all be fighting over who gets the job done, because whoever does the job, THEY are the ones who get paid. So I actually think it makes more sense from a fluff standpoint if they don't work too well together.

I suppose if it helps, pretend that Von Schill can't stand having Sue around, simply because he's got a girl's name, and he doesn't want his Freikorps to look soft.

[ProdigalPunk]

My point, as I said before, is that I feel the decision to limit his hiring within the faction is completely unnecessary. How would the neverborn community feel if the a new doll came out that couldn't be used by Collodi, a Woe that couldn't be used by pandora, or a new Ortega for Guild not being able to be used with Perdita. Sure I'm a bit biased due to enjoying the model and my disappointment, but I don't think my opinion is unreasonable or coming out of left field in any way.

The point is that the Outcasts faction is already extremely divided, and the separate masters' minions don't really work together...unlike the majority of models in other factions. IMO making the already divided faction even more divided, IMO, isn't the way to go...did I mention this was my opinion already?

I'll just back off this thread , as it's obvious everyone is too gaga over the "Johnny Cash" themed model to take any sort of criticism. "OMG, someone said something negative about a book 3 model....attack attack attack!!!!!" Hahahaha.

General Points are pretty much wasted on these boards. You can start off general, but as soon as you use a specific example the boards will just rip that example an skip over the general idea completely. So it is probably best to just throw your hands up and walk away slowly.

I sort of agree with your opposition here that Outcasts are less a faction and more just where they throw the unwanted. Unwanted in the sense that Malifaux does not want them, not so much that players do not want them. Every master throws out restrictions on who it can take, so it is not unreasonable for that to start trickling down to minions. So on that we disagree. I would also point out that other factions do have their limitations as well. They are not as set in stone as this one, but Kairi for example makes all non-spirits Rare 1, using a Henchman master of any faction severely limits choice selection, ect.

I will start off my second point by saying I have not seen book three. While I agree that there is a precedent set to limit crew choice I do not really get this one at all. I am not sure why they did it from a mechanical standpoint and I surely do not get it from a fluff standpoint. Does Sue have ruthless, because I feel like someone who "shot a man in Reno just to watch him die", might be entitled to that talent.

To the boards in general (and all people of Earth): When someone asks why, rarely is "so it is written, so shall it be done" a good answer. It makes for poor debate, and that makes for laxed game design. I think I give off the impression I am a wyrd hater and want to see them fail. This is not the case, I really like Malifaux, and want to see them succeed, and I think questioning their choices is something that will make them dig deeper in the future for their game design.

With that said, does anyone have a reason for why he can not work with ruthless models? Game balance issues? A Johnny Cash lyric? The name of the Talent?

[dgraz]

Every master throws out restrictions on who it can take, so it is not unreasonable for that to start trickling down to minions.

The Malifaux Raptor is an Arcanist model that can't be hired by any Arcanist except Marcus.

The Seishin is a Rezzer model that can only be hired with Kirai.

Sometimes the limitations just make sense - sometimes maybe not. It's a grand scheme of things type of thing.

[Buck Dog]

The point is that the Outcasts faction is already extremely divided, and the separate masters' minions don't really work together...unlike the majority of models in other factions. IMO making the already divided faction even more divided, IMO, isn't the way to go...did I mention this was my opinion already?

To be honest, I am not too bothered. I am happy to run my Viks without Von Schill or a Slinger, however I can see why other Outcast players are annoyed. As mentioned, there is very little overlap between Outcast crews, for a game which is balanced at Faction level, this makes collecting the Outcasts a relatively costly past time as you have to collect very distinct and seperate crews. It does seem a shame that when there was the potential to share another minion between the Viks and The Freikorp it was not included.

I dunno to me the Outcasts don't really qualify as a Faction.

Watch what you say, that is fighting talk around these here parts Mister

[aarmy]

Though I am new to the Game, I view Sue as my 'Convict - Rare 1' option if/when I pick him up. It will be a choice between him and my Miss Demeanor, since I can only have one Convict.

[Rathnard]

My point, as I said before, is that I feel the decision to limit his hiring within the faction is completely unnecessary. How would the neverborn community feel if the a new doll came out that couldn't be used by Collodi, a Woe that couldn't be used by pandora, or a new Ortega for Guild not being able to be used with Perdita.

None of these are apt comparisons to Sue. Unlike the above, the Viks can still take Sue, it's just that they can't take Sue AND certain other models.

If anything, a much better comparison would be the special forces restriction. eg, Marcus is unable to take a Rogue Necromancy and a Gunsmith, Lawyer, or Friekorps in the same crew.

You made a valid point about the outcasts being so divided. But the main problem with this divisiveness is a reduction in diversity. Fewer available models = less variety in crews, so certain crews wind up looking the same as people lean toward using certain minions.

To me, Viks crews have already lost much of their diversity because of the value of minions like Von Schill, the Librarian and the Convict Gunslinger. That's 21SS worth of no-brainer models you see in almost every Viks crew. So the inclusion of a minion like Sue forces players to think hard about whether to take those above three, or to try something different. Assuming Sue is a good choice (and I can't yet make that assumption until I have the final rules on hand), it means players can take a viable crew that doesn't have to look identical to everyone elses Viks crew.

I'll just back off this thread , as it's obvious everyone is too gaga over the "Johnny Cash" themed model to take any sort of criticism. "OMG, someone said something negative about a book 3 model....attack attack attack!!!!!" Hahahaha.

So I either agree with you, or I'm some mindless fan-boy who can't handle any criticism of book 3? How exactly am I supposed to take that? With a smile and a sheepish admission that "OMG, you're totally right LOL"?

Whether you have a good point or not, statements like this only lead me to conclude that you're not even considering the logic behind the arguements of others like myself. All it really does is compromise my repect for you and your opinions. And that's not a personal attack, I'm just stating the logical conclusion of how myself and others might feel when they're told that their opinions don't count.

I'm more than happy to have a talk with you about the value of Sue in Vik crews, but I'd prefer to base such discussions on logic rather than simply assuming that the opinions of certain people don't count.

[Hookers]

I suppose if it helps, pretend that Von Schill can't stand having Sue around, simply because he's got a girl's name, and he doesn't want his Freikorps to look soft.

Ha, I would say the other way around. It's Sue who can't be hired by a ruthless model. He's tired of people thinking he's soft because he has a girl's name and is all like :261: I'll go where I'm appreciated...

Either way, he's bad ass.

[Dolomyte]

I will start off my second point by saying I have not seen book three. While I agree that there is a precedent set to limit crew choice I do not really get this one at all. I am not sure why they did it from a mechanical standpoint and I surely do not get it from a fluff standpoint. Does Sue have ruthless, because I feel like someone who "shot a man in Reno just to watch him die", might be entitled to that talent.

With that said, does anyone have a reason for why he can not work with ruthless models? Game balance issues? A Johnny Cash lyric? The name of the Talent?

Im curious about this as well, whats the name of the talent, is their a lyric im not aware of?

Also, why doesen't wyrd just commit, is "A boy named sue" not copyrighted, wheres as walk the line and ring of fire are?

Also, since malifaux is now apparently including famous musicians, when is "King of the night time world" going to make an appearence, with such novel abilities as shout it out at a high volume, malifaux rock city, god of lightning, with his "Love Gun" ranged attack.

[Adran]

I'm glad that there is finally a model the Vics can take that Von Schill can't. It was amusing that the henchman actually had a less restricted list than the faction master, but this way they can expand one set of choices without it automatically effecting the other.

[GTFriday13]

I rarely use the Convict with my Viks. Von Schill is a great model, but not necessary in every situation. Therefore Sue will definitely have a place in my crews. Will I use him every time? No. But then again there aren't any models that I use all of the time. The only auto-include model I know of is the Essence of Power for Tina, and even then I've played games without it.

I think Sue is awesome, as a model, as a set of rules. Just because I can't play him with other models doesn't mean he isn't great, it just means that I'll have to change up my play-style and think more about who I am taking into battle. That doesn't make him bad, it makes the game challenging, which IMO is good.

[Hookers]

Also, why doesen't wyrd just commit, is "A boy named sue" not copyrighted, wheres as walk the line and ring of fire are?

Those abilities used to be named exactly as the song. Also some of the song names stayed the same, like Hurt (even though he covered it).

For anyone who is curious, the copyright on Cash's songs does not limit in any way Wyrd's or anyone else's ability to name things after them. A copyright is protection for a work of art in its entirety. Therefore Wyrd would have to produce and publish the actual song to infringe upon the copyright. The name of the song would have to be trademarked for it to offer any protection, which is highly unlikely for a song. It might have been trademarked for the movie though. Walk the Line is the name of the tattoo shop I go to. Anyone could find out right now if it was trademarked by doing a simple search on the uspto.gov website.

Sue is simply a name and cannot be trademarked, and even if it were the name of the song is not Sue.

There is also a general rule that parody is safe from copyright or trademark infringement because of the value it provides to society. The names of the abilities could almost certainly be seen as such. Legally, they most likely did not need to change the names of any of it. They probably just wanted to be careful or thought the modified names were better since everyone would get the joke anyways.

[dgraz]

Those abilities used to be named exactly as the song. Also some of the song names stayed the same, like Hurt (even though he covered it).

Noticed, the other night actually, a typo - in the text of 'Circle of Flame' it actually says 'Ring of Fire'.

[nilus]

Noticed, the other night actually, a typo - in the text of 'Circle of Flame' it actually says 'Ring of Fire'.

Shhhhhhh they don't want to get sued

[nilus]

Also, since malifaux is now apparently including famous musicians, when is "King of the night time world" going to make an appearence, with such novel abilities as shout it out at a high volume, malifaux rock city, god of lightning, with his "Love Gun" ranged attack.

Because that would be silly.

I am still voting for the Willy Nelson Outcast but no one seems to be with me on that.

[Dolomyte]

Cash is totally legitimate, as is pot smoking willie nelson, but a Kiss themed model is silly. For shame Nilus, for shame. I know what part of the country you live in, that is damn near heretical to say. they burn people for less then that.

[CannibalBob]

Cash is totally legitimate, as is pot smoking willie nelson, but a Kiss themed model is silly. For shame Nilus, for shame. I know what part of the country you live in, that is damn near heretical to say. they burn people for less then that.

Seriously... why do Kiss when you could do Alice Cooper or David Bowie? Don't tell me that a Ziggy Stardust model would not be awesome.

[Ratty]

Seriously... why do Kiss when you could do Alice Cooper or David Bowie? Don't tell me that a Ziggy Stardust model would not be awesome.

Ziggy Stardust? not the Gremlin King?... at the end of a Labyrinth.

[LoboStele]

not the Gremlin King?... at the end of a Labyrinth.

LOL, that's exactly what I was thinking, seeing as how we have Gremlin's already. Nightmare version of Somer that looks like David Bowie? Nightmare indeed!!