Do you think there is a "shift" towards Skirmish games?

[ork56]

reading the posts here, its still puzzles me why Confrontation was dropped so quickly.

I know that Rackhams move to pre-painted ruined any chance of new minis/factions, but the existing product line was very wide and the game is solid, but it just seems to have vanished, despite appearing to be the type of game that we all like?

anyway I am really happy that malifaux gives me a 'live' skirmish level game that looks to have a bright future.

[DeafNala]

true, but when the other guy you are playing has only just broken open some blisters and blu-tacked them to bases, you begin to wonder why you bothered.

Judging from my rare visits to the not-so-local game store, Ghostly White, Sinister Black, & Shiny Silver armies have become chic...Legions of the Lazy. :squint:

ANOTHER plus for skirmish games is the gaming board; i.e., it is appreciably smaller than what would be required for an army type game, AND, with the few minis manuveuring over it, it can be more densely packed & detailed...for moi that's a BIG PLUS. :guns:

Edited January 14, 2010 by DeafNala

[thetang22]

I know that Rackhams move to pre-painted ruined any chance of new minis/factions, but the existing product line was very wide and the game is solid, but it just seems to have vanished, despite appearing to be the type of game that we all like?

I think that was the result of Rackham taking their company on to the live French stock market. The game was just fine in the first place, and had a solid fan base.

From everything I know, it was pretty self sufficient. However, when you go on the stock market, you HAVE to cater to the share holders, not necessarily the consumers. In most company cases, you hope that means catering to the same thing, but in this case it seems they missed the mark.

I used to be a regular on the Rackham forums during the last year or two before the big switch, and I can tell you the player base looks like its about 90-95% different than what it used to be. You see almost no one still there that played when it was a skirmish game. On top of that, the overall activity on the forums seems to be WAY down too.

Its a shame too, because Confrontation seemed to be one of the first skirmish games that really started doing things right for the skirmish community. It helped pave the way for a lot of these new skirmish games coming out, and Rackham just pissed it away.

[Poko]

Yes, I do think there is a small, but visible bias towards skirmish gaming recently. For the developers, it means lower entrance costs(book and/or free rules on the website, some models,as opposed to books,army books, FAUSANDS OF THEM SIRRAH! models for the armies). For gamers, it means..well,yes, much lower costs, and ability to try out many games,as their cash is not tied to one large project. I just bough some more aracnists. For 40 quid I got a really varied and large force. 40 quid in 40k would not get me a battalion set, I think. Smaller forces translate to less space taken, less time to paint, and less to carry around. Meanwhile, 15mm seems to be coming back as a scale of choice for big-battles type of games, like FOW or the explosion of 15mm SF we got last year.

Another upside to skirmish-developers can try out different, innovative mechanics in teh games(like cards in Mali, or ARO in Infinity), because for some reason players expect that in a skirmish, and strongly dislike that in a battles game.

The only "downside" I can think of is the imminent darwinian battle for the market saturation with so many new skirmish games, but somehow I doubt Malifaux will fare bad in this;)

[gold_penguin]

I think Poko (and others in the thread) is close to one of the other reasons there's been a shift, and it's basically supplier driven.

With the advent of the internet, it's much much easier for small startups to get a cool but small range of minis onto the market. In order to compete, you necessarily get interesting and different mechanics going along with that. The good ones catch on (go Malifaux!), the bad ones fall by the wayside, and the overall effect is a greater supply of quality skirmish games.

And since all of us are such suckers for cool games and minis, as well as having ADD when it comes to collecting and playing, it's only natural that there's a bit of a shift to skirmish.

[Nathan Caroland]

The only "downside" I can think of is the imminent darwinian battle for the market saturation with so many new skirmish games, but somehow I doubt Malifaux will fare bad in this;)

::Lacing up steel toed boots and practicing kidney punches with the new brass knuckles::

::Noticing onlookers...::

"What?! Nothing to see here, move along!"

::hiding brass knuckles::

[supervike]

I think several skirmish games will (and already have) fared badly in the 'saturation' of the market. But there are a few 'cream of the crop' games that rise above the din.

Malifaux is certainly one of those.

[Cenotaph]

It is very nice to see skirmish coming back to popularity these past few years. For those of you old enough to remember first ed 40K (Rogue Trader) was a skirmish game, but over the years it has grown into this monster that GW would like you to invest your life savings in. Personally I can't afford to rent a village hall and commit days of my life to play a single game of Apocalypse so GW games are well off my radar and at almost £100 for some of the models way out of my price range.

For me the best thing about a good skirmish game is that you can usually learn the rules in 5 minutes but will spend forever mastering them. You don't need 15 reference books to play. My kids can afford to buy a complete army with their pocket money in less than a year and the army/figures won't be obsolete before they finish, and you have a variety to paint to keep it fresh and interesting.

When I'm not playing Malifaux I'm the local Free Agent (Demo Guy) for Anima Tactics and it's a real pleasure to be able to teach people a new game and then watch them get excited about it. With skirmish games you can run a demo with just a few figures in 20 minutes and they can still enjoy it and understand the rules.

So for me at least Skirmish is the way to go and long may they thrive.

[Lucifer_Drake]

Like others have said..to me it's money & time. You get more out of a skirmish game for the investment. It's what has kept me from diving into mini games even though I really want to. Warlord is the only large scale game I'll play at this time..because two of my RPG budies wanted to play & we had some minis already from reaper.

But i'll be focusing on Malifaux , possibly Urban War , Mordheim & quite possibly MERCS..woot!

[Wolfblade]

I have to agree with the sentiments a few pages back. When I have a handful of models, all of them named, I care more about them, I play them better, and spend more time painting them.

The 53rd Ork or Orc, or Space Marine gets old for me. Like many, my first exposure was GW.... and I drank the Kool-aid, dutifully painted block after block of figures, and wasnt somehow satisfied. Then WarMachine came, and I fell in love, but the bloom fell off the rose as units became more important and the 9th Trencher just didnt matter to me anymore.

Now I have Malifaux, and I couldnt be happier, I play more, I paint with more enthusiasm, and when I need a change of pace I can start a new faction for a VERY reasonable price.

[brucemanning]

Since the demise of Rackhams Confrontation V3, there has been nothing, until Malifaux, to match its gameplay and depth. C3 was the best skirmish game but I can saftely say that Malifaux has taken that crown.

Long Live King Malifaux.

[Breten]

I love Malifaux, but that's a bit of a stretch. There have been a ton of solid skirmish games since C3 including Infinity and HellDorado. Malifaux is one of them. And as many fans as there are for the game, we have an equal amount locally with a distaste for Malifaux. And yes, they've bought and played it.

I don't think there's any sudden shift in popularity of skirmish sized games as they've been around for years. Warmachine started out skirmish size before it evolved into what it is today. Confrontation was around in '98 or '99.

I think the only difference is the new "generation" of gamers that started with Warhammer or Warmachine or Magic or what have you is noticing other things. It was the same for those of us like Weird Sketch and I who started with Fantasy in 2nd or 3rd, and 40K back in Rogue Trader or 2nd edition days. The difference is we had some smaller skirmish games within GW, that when they dropped the games, we looked elsewhere.

I can get a game of 40K or Fantasy at the drop of a hat, so the popularity isn't ebbing there. Any of the skirmish games, I have to schedule games with only a handful of opponents to choose from. At it's height, I had 10-20 players showing up for Confrontation, so skirmish isn't new, and I don't think related to an economic shifts.

Skirmish games are definately becoming more prevalent on the market though. I think that has more to do with the aging gamers. When I was in my teens and 20's I could play anytime, anywhere, get models painted and still go to the bar and do that stuff. Now that I am in my mid 30's, I have less free time due to career, and other committments. And my (girlfriend (wife) and I don't even have kids. I've seen lots of friend's gaming die by the wayside, only to get more games in once the kids hit a certain age. Then they only have time for a skirmish sized game rather than a full 3 hours for a game of Fantasy.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Breten

[chaosobscuros]

I will personally always love the visual of two large, well painted armies on a 6' by 4' table. I got into 40k back in '92, and amassed quite a large collection. I can still buy the occasional model or squad to get an updated looking army without a large investment. But with the regular price increases, a 40k (or fantasy for that matter) army would cost a new player a small fortune. I honestly don't know how a high school or college student could afford to drop $600 or so for a new army. I think that skirmish systems like Malifaux are a great new alternative, and quite honesty, aside from the monetary issue, I feel that 40k has streamlined their rules so much that you lose the special character feel that I always loved about the game.

[GunslingerPanda]

Well I haven't played Malifaux yet (waiting on my Death Marshals to show up!) but it certainly appeals to me more.

Having a handful of interesting characters to use just feels better than using an army of nameless, faceless squads.

The characters are better too. Take WH40k for example. I play Space Wolves, and find that being told "Yo check out this bad ass Viking dude in awesome armour with a big ass bird on his shoulder" just isn't effective. Wyrd did an awesome job in including so much fluff in the rulebook: I had zero interest in Rasputina before reading through it, but now I'll probably pick her crew up when I've got my Death Marshals painted up. Same goes for Seamus.

I have a feeling certain companies might try similar things now.

Haha, I'm assuming all Skirmish games are like this, anyway.

[nightgaunt98c]

I will personally always love the visual of two large, well painted armies on a 6' by 4' table.

I kinda preferred the 4x8 they used to reccomend, even though it took up a huge space.

[Warlord Imp]

I like the skirmish game in Malifaux. The closest I got to a skirmish game in my day was the Shadowrun Game produced by Wizkids. Being a painter, in the big army environment, I get tired of painting by the 6th figure with the same basic pose with the same paint scheme. So, Malifaux is such a refreshing format where each figure is individually unique like the Ortega's Crew or the Viktoria's.

[Sturm88]

I know my interest has shitted into small skirmish games:

Malifaux

Spinespur

Infinity

[TheBugKing]

I know my interest has shitted into small skirmish games:

Malifaux

Spinespur

Infinity

You have gotten so used to it it just comes out as a Freudian slip now!

Sheesh.

[Sturm88]

Haha...well, for how I feel WM has gone, it kind of fits, haha.

[Prophaniti]

Well I've only recently (last 2-3 years) left the 100% GW collection and have started branching out into other arenas. I've sort of gone 2-ways. Skirmish (Warmachine and now Malifaux, thanks n0signal) and big armies in 6mm scale. But they are all means to an end, i.e. getting a cheap army painted quickly. The main trouble is that my club changes games so quickly that there's often a new one up and coming before the existing next best thing gets established. (I think we're fairly secure on Malifaux though.)

[The Butcher]

It seems to me as though people want to get into a game with low buy in, easy to follow rules , and quick to play. Malifaux is defiantly that type of game, Privateer seems to be making that transition back to smaller games and simplified rules with the release of MkII.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

It seems to me as though people want to get into a game with low buy in, easy to follow rules , and quick to play. Malifaux is defiantly that type of game, Privateer seems to be making that transition back to smaller games and simplified rules with the release of MkII.

Regarding Mark II

Simplified rules I'll give you.

Smaller games I won't.

They still push for more models on the the table as opposed to small games.

[The Butcher]

Regarding Mark II

Simplified rules I'll give you.

Smaller games I won't.

They still push for more models on the the table as opposed to small games.

True, but it seems that some are taking it as an opportunity to lower the points cost of games heading back toward the skirmish levels of the olden days (350 point games). I think games like Malifaux are a good reason for this trend.

[Sturm88]

Since about 3 years ago or so, it was called, and will forever be called, Warunits. Not Warmachine. It will never be a small skirmish game again. That's the way of the do-do with overtly succesful mini games.

[N0rdicNinja]

Since about 3 years ago or so, it was called, and will forever be called, Warunits. Not Warmachine. It will never be a small skirmish game again. That's the way of the do-do with overtly succesful mini games.

I will say, while taking nothing but units is still a viable tactic, with MKII they've made taking nothing but Jacks a feasible strategy as well. There are just so many ways to wipe out units by the bucket load now.

But regardless, even when infantrymachine was running rampant it paled in comparison to the monstrosity that is Warhammer. It's definitely outgrown its Skirmish clothing, but as a Wargame it's still very reasonable.