Bandido buff?

[Maniacal_cackle]

On paper, a model that can make any model fast is pretty good, offers access to card draw, two excellent control triggers, etc.

Also when you're dropping so many scheme markers, I assume it is easy to get like 15" of extra movement if you really need to 🤣

But I've never given them a fair go with Daw. But Daw has less access to scheme markers.

[Azahul]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

On paper, a model that can make any model fast is pretty good, offers access to card draw, two excellent control triggers, etc.

Also when you're dropping so many scheme markers, I assume it is easy to get like 15" of extra movement if you really need to 🤣

But I've never given them a fair go with Daw. But Daw has less access to scheme markers.

Yeah, being able to make any model Fast is great. Admittedly OOK it has to compete with the Student for 2 stones less for the same functionality, and in Bandit it's pretty redundant because of all the Life of Crime models. Plus its bonus action is Tormented only, so you're really only moving it around.

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Yeah, being able to make any model Fast is great. Admittedly OOK is has to compete with the Student for 2 stones less for the same functionality, and in Bandit it's pretty redundant because of all the Life of Crime models. Plus its bonus action is Tormented only, so you're really only moving it around.

Yeah but if you're talking cheap scoring AP, getting 3 pushes over the course of the game could be pretty huge.

That said... definitely not the style of model I play.

I don't even use sloth much xD

Although compared to sloth this has wayyyy more scoring potential.

[Avatar of Butter]

Dead Outlaw is... meh? Dang, y'all really do play the game differently than I do.

For 1 SS more than a Bandido, you get two more wounds and HTW, trade Reposition for two much more relevant triggers on the gun, gain the ability to shoot into melee, a situational Obey (that you can use on Guilty), and some totally cracked Tactical actions.

Covetous Cravings is Scheme Marker removal with up to 12 inch range that can fire around corners... and it gives your arc node fast? Too Greedy To Die allows you to push other Dead Outlaws in LOS (infinite range) out of melee whenever ANY model drops a scheme marker within 6? That's not even counting the way that a pair of Dead Outlaws can daisy-chain pushes up the board.

[Azahul]

13 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah but if you're talking cheap scoring AP, getting 3 pushes over the course of the game could be pretty huge.

That said... definitely not the style of model I play.

I don't even use sloth much xD

Although compared to sloth this has wayyyy more scoring potential.

Yeah, but they're on a model dropping AP to buff up other models, so you're usually lagging with or without the free pushes. And those pushes happen after the Outlaw has activated which is a bit suboptimal from a scoring perspective.

 

1 minute ago, Avatar of Butter said:

Dead Outlaw is... meh? Dang, y'all really do play the game differently than I do.

For 1 SS more than a Bandido, you get two more wounds and HTW, trade Reposition for two much more relevant triggers on the gun, gain the ability to shoot into melee, a situational Obey (that you can use on Guilty), and some totally cracked Tactical actions.

Covetous Cravings is Scheme Marker removal with up to 12 inch range that can fire around corners... and it gives your arc node fast? Too Greedy To Die allows you to push other Dead Outlaws in LOS (infinite range) out of melee whenever ANY model drops a scheme marker within 6? That's not even counting the way that a pair of Dead Outlaws can daisy-chain pushes up the board.

Yeah, the Dead Outlaw is a good model. In Daw. You just don't need what it offers in Bandit. Marker removal, access to Fast, and the (pretty hard to use, but very funny) ability to Obey Guilty into Min 3 beaters aren't relevant traits in a Bandit crew.

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

I am somewhat fond of the dead outlaw.  It gets a slight move with it's own dropping of a marker (which I use to give Sue fast), and then Pearl makes him move again.  If you're lucky, Sue can potentially move him again when he goes guns ablazing.

 

Combine that with a crew with low durability, and the fact you get decent durability for a low price, I find it hard to not take 1 (emphasis on the 1).  And its annoying enough to be a distraction if needed.

 

I tend to stay largely in keyword/versatile, so I may find more use of it than those willing to go OoK.

[Azahul]

If anything I would think those of us playing more OOK should be able to find the Fast more useful, since we'd have fewer inherent Life of Crime models. In reality I just rarely find room for it. In Keyword it exists almost solely to give Fast to Sue, but at that point you could just about afford to hire two Convict Gunslingers instead and they will generally outperform Sue plus a Dead Outlaw by a reasonable margin. And Gunslingers are a model I also think are quite in need of a buff, since they are pretty clearly a Cost 7 model we inexplicably have to pay 8 for.

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

My experience with the convict gunslingers isn't too much different than that of the bandido.  Yes, can do a lot of damage, but they are shockingly easy to kill.  The ease of which they die has really soured me on them as a whole (maybe I should run them in little fireteams).

 

I tend to have the malifaux child nearby Sue/dead outlaw who can copy Covetous Cravings, but usually I am being  greedy trying to bandit raid on Sue/Mad dog (I typically have Pearl leave an enemy scheme marker behind my main lines where most my team can draw line of sight to it so they can fall back shooting).

 

Generally I take more of a distraction, or "feed to the wolves" approach, to my Parker list over raw damage output.  If a key piece is about to get hit hard, I'll slow the enemy down with a more useless peice by throwing it into base contact with the enemy.  Then they have to waste actions on a model they would rather not be dealing with at all the while my key peice regroups or does whatever else.  Generally in my Parker list I do that with the Dead Outlaw and Parker himself (I have Parker produce and absorb enemy scheme markers en mass while being healed by Pearl, and then while the enemy throws everything at Parker I reduce as much damage as I can with all the soulstones he gets).

 

Anyways, thats my reasoning for what I do.  Is the most effective thing?  Probably not, but it's what I've come up with and fared alright with.

[Burnin4tor]

On 7/1/2022 at 8:56 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I didn't play last edition so could certainly be wrong, but this edition quite regularly I'll see a model 30 inches away and go "I'm gonna kill that."

Agree with the above that the scoring structure is an even bigger deal.

*cough* dead rider *cough*

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Burnin4tor said:

*cough* dead rider *cough*

The worst is when I reap my own model and literally do have someone start 30 inches away from a model before killing it xD

[ShinChan]

20 hours ago, Azahul said:

You're right, a free extra action is better than a free Interact. But if we're looking at them as schemers then practically speaking most of the time the extra action is going to be an interact. More importantly the Rifleman just gets its extra action a lot more frequently than the Bandido for the reasons I outlined. A free Interact is worth a lot more than no action at all.

The Bandido's way out of combat is in the hands of your opponent. If their objective is to prevent you from scoring they'll engage you without attacking you. It's not a useful tool from a scheming perspective.

Better Df/Wp don't come close to beating the additional survivability the Rifleman gets from Hard to Kill. 

I haven't mentioned the Rifleman's movement abilities because they're the same as the Bandido's. Run and Gun hasn't been mentioned because if you're scheming it's giving you one potshot every turn at most and at Stat 5 and Min 2 with Drop It as the most useful trigger it's not irrelevant, but it's getting close. I haven't mentioned it for the same reason I haven't gone through all the marginally useful rules on the Rifleman's card.

But, for what it's worth, I have hired a Rifleman into a Parker2 crew because they don't compete with the Bandit models for scheme markers while being able to incidentally provide scheme markers for those other Bandit models. Being an enabler for your crew is a better synergy for a cheap model than being a tax on those resources.

I haven't felt the need for one in Parker1, but that's largely because my Parker1 crews don't tend to hire any Bandits after Mad Dog and Pearl.

This confuses me. Dead Outlaw is fine, but it's only really useful in a Daw crew. Why would it ever enter the conversation in Bandit?

I hire a Rifleman in most of my Parker 1 lists. They're so much better than Bandidos, so much!

And I do play 2-4 Bandit models in a Parker 1 list (not including Parker and Doc Mitchell).

[Azahul]

19 hours ago, ShinChan said:

I hire a Rifleman in most of my Parker 1 lists. They're so much better than Bandidos, so much!

And I do play 2-4 Bandit models in a Parker 1 list (not including Parker and Doc Mitchell).

I'm not surprised The more competition you have for Life of Crime markers, the more I would expect the value of the Rifleman in being able to provide markers to the crew to rise. Whereas a Bandido would just be more competition. 

[Chris Dodson]

In regards to At Gunpoint, there is a ruling I am trying to find the answer for. It would seem that it can be used to make an enemy drop a friendly scheme marker, like Obey. I am not convinced this works though, since the model does not become friendly when controlled. However, based on the FAQ on Exclusive interview, many players are saying that a Controlled model drops a marker friendly to the controller. This would make banditos much more useful.

I cannot find any direct rulings that support this, however. 

[Adran]

32 minutes ago, Chris Dodson said:

In regards to At Gunpoint, there is a ruling I am trying to find the answer for. It would seem that it can be used to make an enemy drop a friendly scheme marker, like Obey. I am not convinced this works though, since the model does not become friendly when controlled. However, based on the FAQ on Exclusive interview, many players are saying that a Controlled model drops a marker friendly to the controller. This would make banditos much more useful.

I cannot find any direct rulings that support this, however. 

The core rules, markers, page 64 hard copy, 

When a model Drops a Marker, it is friendly to the crew controlling the model that Dropped it. 

 

So any markers dropped by the action from "at gunpoint" would be friendly to the bandito unless otherwise specified. 

[Chris Dodson]

Thanks so much! I was looking specifically under scheme markers. I Keep going back and rereading after every game, it is a lot to remember.

 

Also, this makes Banditos much better in my opinion, given some of the GG3 schemes.

[Jesy Blue]

Didn't Bandidos just get an upgrade technically with Dead Man Walking?

Switching the "Drop It!" trigger to After Resolving gives them an extra shot even on a miss with a Tome on up to two models a turn with Stare Down.

[Azahul]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

Didn't Bandidos just get an upgrade technically with Dead Man Walking?

Switching the "Drop It!" trigger to After Resolving gives them an extra shot even on a miss with a Tome on up to two models a turn with Stare Down.

I guess, if you want to hire Bandidos with the Dead Man Walking. Given that their only non-Interact way of dropping scheme markers is the Drop It trigger though they don't really mesh with his kit.

[James Dyson]

I've been pondering things, and while I'm not convinced yet (will need to put models on the table) I do think a pair of Bandidos might be interesting for DMW.

The theory being, while you can Drop It! A marker to avoid DMW's aura, you generally can't drop a marker in a position to block LoS to two separate models with a 30mm.

Which means, with adequate LoD coverage your opponent now risks a Bandido shot on nearly every drop it effect you make, if they want to avoid Perdition.  And even then, two bandidos means if one can't see the marker, the other probably can.

Doesn't solve the 'they die like 5 wd models' and I'm not sure than giving them H2K with the upgrade is a great idea, though letting them convert Pearls free marker into a Soulstone does drop them to effectively 6 ss.

[KID55]

Tried Catalan riflemans at this Monday instead of bandidos, and now this is my new bandido. They can interact-walk-interact, which is great. They can distract and stun enemies. They can damage gharging enemies and they are HtK. It much more useful than, occasional extra shot.

[Rabbitknight]

On 7/27/2022 at 11:26 AM, Diceman87 said:

I've been pondering things, and while I'm not convinced yet (will need to put models on the table) I do think a pair of Bandidos might be interesting for DMW.

The theory being, while you can Drop It! A marker to avoid DMW's aura, you generally can't drop a marker in a position to block LoS to two separate models with a 30mm.

Which means, with adequate LoD coverage your opponent now risks a Bandido shot on nearly every drop it effect you make, if they want to avoid Perdition.  And even then, two bandidos means if one can't see the marker, the other probably can.

Doesn't solve the 'they die like 5 wd models' and I'm not sure than giving them H2K with the upgrade is a great idea, though letting them convert Pearls free marker into a Soulstone does drop them to effectively 6 ss.

If Trigger Finger applied more than once per turn, or if you could resolve more than one instance off each drop, and Drop It was more reliable it might be a good source of damage, as it is you suffer the low stat shot over the guaranteed 1 Perdition damage pretty comfortably.

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

The Bandido is looking at the new Sappers green with envy.  They are remarkably similar to the Bandido, but get the built in mask for defense and stealth, both of which were suggestions for the Bandido around last errata cycle.  Unlike a Bandido they also get a bonus action and can effectively gain fast.  A Bandido can theoretically get fast, but it remains that, a theory (as they are already dead by time an enemy drops a scheme marker).

 

Looking at the Bandido, I am not sure it would at all be unreasonable to slap on stealth plus the built in mask for defense on the bandido, although I am not a fan of models being too similar.  But then again, Saboteurs and Operatives are basically brothers.

 

Would a built in mask for df and stealth make you consider a Bandido worth 5 points?  I could see myself taking one, hugging cover and running flanks if they got that.  

 

Ideas?

 

 

[Azahul]

6 hours ago, Brilliance Laced Whiskey said:

The Bandido is looking at the new Sappers green with envy.  They are remarkably similar to the Bandido, but get the built in mask for defense and stealth, both of which were suggestions for the Bandido around last errata cycle.  Unlike a Bandido they also get a bonus action and can effectively gain fast.  A Bandido can theoretically get fast, but it remains that, a theory (as they are already dead by time an enemy drops a scheme marker).

 

Looking at the Bandido, I am not sure it would at all be unreasonable to slap on stealth plus the built in mask for defense on the bandido, although I am not a fan of models being too similar.  But then again, Saboteurs and Operatives are basically brothers.

 

Would a built in mask for df and stealth make you consider a Bandido worth 5 points?  I could see myself taking one, hugging cover and running flanks if they got that.  

 

Ideas?

 

 

Stealth would help give the Bandido a role, but it wouldn't be the role they are seemingly designed to perform. I would at least consider hiring one but it would hug a flank and never get to use its Trigger Finger ability.

The ideal, which may well be unachievable, would be to actually make the Bandido functional in that mid-range combat support role where it gets lots of attacks and gets more as scheme markers drop.

Obviously the first step would be to actually make Trigger Finger functional by removing the aura symbol. You would need a defensive rule too, maybe Disguised would be appropriate? But I also wonder how far you could push the Bandido's offensive power while leaving it trivial to kill before it becomes broken. Giving it a positive to its attack, a built in tome, and adding Onslaught to its triggers maybe? Would that be enough to balance it inevitably dying to one swing?

[Thatguy]

Yeah. I think, like a lot of minions in its price range, to get the bandito buffed to the point where it's useful, you need to give it a pretty clear role.

Maybe that means giving it more mobility or ability to easily drop schemes so it can be a dedicated scheme runner or provide fast for other Bandits. 

If you want it to be mid-ranged support, I think it needs something to make it to offense a little more useful. A positive twist might do it.  I might give it a built-in trigger for something that gives a positive twist damage, once per turn. That way you're encouraged to run and gun with your first AP and then spend another AP getting into cover or out of line of sight. 

[Azahul]

12 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Yeah. I think, like a lot of minions in its price range, to get the bandito buffed to the point where it's useful, you need to give it a pretty clear role.

Maybe that means giving it more mobility or ability to easily drop schemes so it can be a dedicated scheme runner or provide fast for other Bandits. 

If you want it to be mid-ranged support, I think it needs something to make it to offense a little more useful. A positive twist might do it.  I might give it a built-in trigger for something that gives a positive twist damage, once per turn. That way you're encouraged to run and gun with your first AP and then spend another AP getting into cover or out of line of sight. 

The Guns Blazing trigger from Parker2 mayhaps? Would be a nice piece of symmetry there.

[James Dyson]

Even if you keep the aura (which I think the aura should stay) it would make more sense to me for Trigger Finger (and Perdition) to go off when *an enemy model in range* drops a scheme marker, rather than the marker itself.