Bandido buff?

[KID55]

Played a few more games with Bandit keyword, and I think it needs some buff to Bandidos. As a scheme-runners they are very crappy. For more mobility I took them with Wanted Criminal upgrade, but it feels like waste of money. Scavengers of Ronins would be better for whis price.

I see next problems:

- Almost no options for handling scheme markers, except Life of crime (but this is only for removing and only at the start of activation) and At Gunpoint (but I think this is almost useless action, but about it a bit later).

- No bonus movement except Df trigger. But not everytime you have masks in Duel or in hand and...

- They are very frigile. In current situation in a game, scheme-runner should be durable, or mobile af, or both.

- You very rare use Life of crime on them, because there is not so much markers, especcially at turn 1 and 2 (when runners should run) and you prefer use it for Mad Dog or wokou or convict gunslingers.
- At Gunpoint - useless action. You shoud have: 1) enemy scheme (not very hard), 2) non-Leader enemy in 3" (also not very hard), 3) TN 7 (ok), 4) Opposed duel (hmm), 5) Target can discard a card to avoid effect (meh). And the most important - it cost one action. There so small effort from this action that you will take it probably never.

Wanted criminal makes them a bit better, it add free movement, bonus sction and some defence. But than they cost 7 and too fragile (5/5 and 5 wounds, meh).

 

Some problems not so serious when you play vanilla Parker, because he has Draw their attention for additional interacts and Bandit Raid for free move and attacks. But with Parker2 they are very crappy(

 

I think they shoud have more durability (maybe armor or some tricks with consealment), remove At Gunpoint and receive Onward or something similar.

 

Any thoughts?

[admiralvorkraft]

Yes. My thought is that this - as with most issues raised around minions - is a product of the way the scoring timing works. 3/8 points are only available at the end of turn five and with very few exceptions (assassinate namely) you can't lock those in early. So AP advantage, which is what those cheap models are supposed to bring to the table, only really starts to matter turn 4/5. 

If gg3 simply changed the eog point on schemes to "at the end of any turn after this scheme was revealed" every cheap, struggling minion will potentially find a place.

[ShinChan]

They need a quick action, some decent candidates that actually fit the theme:

• Risky Maneuver
• Ambush
• I've got your back
• Follow my path
• Creep along
• Quick Retreat
• Reckless
• Free Loot
• Forage

At Gunpoint is a terrible action for the reasons you've mentiones.

Also I think they should have a printed  in their attack, so there's a reason for them to shoot. Still all these changes wouldn't increase their survavility, which is one of their bigger weaknesses. Printed mask in Defense or Disguised would make them more playable. Right now they're terrible because:

1. Don't provide any utility
2. They die too easily
3. They don't have any decent damage output, not even for a 5ss minion
4. They have 3 attacks, one is so terrible that doesn't even make sense it exists in the game, another one is forgettable (Knife) and the gun is decent, but they don't ignore FF, Cover or Concealment.
5. They're completely outclassed by Catalan Rifleman, and I don't consider those more than "decent" 5ss models

[Azahul]

And there's the fact that Trigger Finger doesn't even work outside their own activation, as an opponent can always place the marker such that the Bandido can't draw LOS to it...

 

I wonder if removing the aura from Trigger Finger (so that they ignore LOS) and getting a printed tome would be enough? That's potentially a lot of attacks out of a couple of Bandidos, but they would still die shockingly easily and have no bonus.

 

At Gunpoint meanwhile should at minimum let you draw a card if your opponent takes the Discard option. I don't think even that would be enough to make the action all that worth it but it'd be something.

[KID55]

I think instead of Knife and they should receive a Gunfighter. And new tactical and bonus. Because really you use only 1 action from 3.

[KID55]

13 hours ago, Azahul said:

And there's the fact that Trigger Finger doesn't even work outside their own activation, as an opponent can always place the marker such that the Bandido can't draw LOS to it...

I really think that Drop it! should be reworked. Attacker should place a marker. Yes, there is a lot of cards but I thought that was one of the wyrd's intentions, when they get rid off almost all unique triggers and replace them with common ones. They can easily fix such issues.

[Azahul]

18 minutes ago, KID55 said:

I really think that Drop it! should be reworked. Attacker should place a marker. Yes, there is a lot of cards but I thought that was one of the wyrd's intentions, when they get rid off almost all unique triggers and replace them with common ones. They can easily fix such issues.

I don't disagree but there is a definite trend on Wyrd's part to keep changes to a large number of cards to a minimum. There haven't been any corrections to duplicated triggers on that scale so far this edition. So realistically I think the fix is more likely to appear on those rules that wouldn't impact over a dozen other models.

 

If anything it actually seems more likely to me that they would change the core rulebook's stance that LOS can be blocked on tangent lines, since that would let them avoid errataing any cards at all while still largely fixing the problem. 

[Ming]

Many Bandit minions should be updated. Raiders and Gunslingers aren't worth 8ss for now.

Regarding Bandidos.

They could use built-in plus on their guns like the other bandits.

Remove Knife and give them Gunslinger. Move Maim trigger to the Revolver attack.

At Gunpoint is an odd action, indeed. It's not projectile, so you can't use it with other ablities. It's only 8" so you need to go into the fray with a squishy minion. And even in a perfect situation you need a seven+ card for it to succeed. I don't remember declaring it even with Dead Outlaws, which is easier, can be used on Guilty and has triggers, even a built-in one.

They don't have a bonus action - you can attach Wanted Criminal for Free Loot. But it would be good to have another BA on the card.

They don't have any protection save for the non-built-in trigger. Even Bulletproof would be good.

 

Just for comparison, other available 5ss models: Catalan Rifleman, Freikorpsmann, Necropunk, Big Jake, Guilty, Obedient Wretch. There's also Wrastler, which is another rare hire.

[KID55]

1 hour ago, Ming said:

They don't have a bonus action - you can attach Wanted Criminal for Free Loot. But it would be good to have another BA on the card.

And with uprgade they cost 7 and it's a way too much, for their kit

[Avatar of Butter]

Man, this goes to show you how your perceptions of power levels get skewed depending on which crews you play. I've just come back to the game, and I've been playing Freikorps and Plague. I saw someone playing Parker at another table and was wistfully wishing my scheme runners were as good as Bandidos.

[Azahul]

4 hours ago, Avatar of Butter said:

Man, this goes to show you how your perceptions of power levels get skewed depending on which crews you play. I've just come back to the game, and I've been playing Freikorps and Plague. I saw someone playing Parker at another table and was wistfully wishing my scheme runners were as good as Bandidos.

If you want a fast, squishy schemer, doesn't Plague have a faster flying option in the Winged Plague that does that role better?

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

I'm confused about a couple of things.  "Drop it!" Says that the scheme marker must be dropped within line of sight of this model, aka the bandido in this instance.  How can they drop it in a way that the bandido can't see it when its required of them according to the trigger?  Yes, they could move to block it in their own turn, but that's a waste of an action on their part.

The second is with trigger finger.  It says it once a turn, but it's clearly written with the intent that multiple models with this ability might  have line of sight to a target when they drop a scheme marker, but only one model with the ability may shoot at a time.  Why would it work only on that bandido's specific activation and not during other models (assuming it hasn't been used yet)?

Back to the main topic, Bandidos are one of those models you look at and it seems like they got a lot going on, but very little of it works practically.  They are in theory are generating actions here and there, but reality tends to be quite disappointing in this regard.

Yes, Parker can have them interact outside their turn, but this wastes the teams precious resources.

I do like ShinChan's idea of putting in a built in mask for defense.  Considering the survivability of this model is nil, it hardly seems over the top to put this on them.  The built in tomes for ranged would also help mitigate the models lack of a bonus action.  As for the knife and "at gunpoint", they can just go away and no one would bat an eye.
 

I would also be for the reworking of other models in the faction, primarily the minions.  I honestly have never considered bayou smugglers, and often forget they even exist.  I don't really know if anyone bothers taking them (and am genuinely curious if you do) and if I want something similar, I would just take a soulstone miner instead.

Convict slingers need the least attention I think, but they seem a little steep for their points.  Maybe df6 and/or 8 hit points?

And maybe its blasphemous, I don't know, but I would change Sue.  It's not because he's bad, in fact I like him quite a bit, it's just that his musical abilities feel tacked on.  He's a ranged powerhouse aura abilities that feel like an after thought.

I would make the music auras his primary focus, and have the ranged attack downgraded.  Make it so there are 4 songs to choose from with a 6 inch aura with some survivability.  The idea of Johnny Cash running around affecting the flow of battle with music alone is way too genius of a concept to let it go to waste.

If the lack of a named powerhouse with pistols is irksome, just make a character to fit that build called the Waco Kid or something with ranged capabilities similar to Sue's current iteration.

[Azahul]

10 minutes ago, Brilliance Laced Whiskey said:

I'm confused about a couple of things.  "Drop it!" Says that the scheme marker must be dropped within line of sight of this model, aka the bandido in this instance.  How can they drop it in a way that the bandido can't see it when its required of them according to the trigger?  Yes, they could move to block it in their own turn, but that's a waste of an action on their part.

The second is with trigger finger.  It says it once a turn, but it's clearly written with the intent that multiple models with this ability might  have line of sight to a target when they drop a scheme marker, but only one model with the ability may shoot at a time.  Why would it work only on that bandido's specific activation and not during other models (assuming it hasn't been used yet)?

The problem isn't with a Bandido getting Trigger Finger on its turn, the problem is any other model trying to proc trigger finger. The enemy controls the placement of the Marker with Drop It, so if, say, Mad Dog gets the Drop It trigger the enemy model can always place the marker on the opposite side of their base to the Bandido to block LOS. Trigger Finger is an aura and requires LOS, so this denies them Trigger Finger.

This seems to be something that Wyrd and their playtesters keep missing, because Parker2 has the exact same issue on his Perdition aura.

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

3 minutes ago, Azahul said:

The problem isn't with a Bandido getting Trigger Finger on its turn, the problem is any other model trying to proc trigger finger. The enemy controls the placement of the Marker with Drop It, so if, say, Mad Dog gets the Drop It trigger the enemy model can always place the marker on the opposite side of their base to the Bandido to block LOS. Trigger Finger is an aura and requires LOS, so this denies them Trigger Finger.

This seems to be something that Wyrd and their playtesters keep missing, because Parker2 has the exact same issue on his Perdition aura.

Ah, makes perfect sense.

 

It's a real shame there are so many things are holding Parker's keyword back.  He has a really cool engaging crew, even if it's somewhat simplistic.  They are so high octane and great thematically.  Its clear what they intended for the team and I just wish the keyword reflected it.

[Autumn King]

2 hours ago, Brilliance Laced Whiskey said:

Ah, makes perfect sense.

 

It's a real shame there are so many things are holding Parker's keyword back.  He has a really cool engaging crew, even if it's somewhat simplistic.  They are so high octane and great thematically.  Its clear what they intended for the team and I just wish the keyword reflected it.

They cannot block line of sight to the marker from all of your models.  All teams have some hurdles they have to make it over to make their tricks work.  This is just one for Parker, and I am not that convinced it is a major issue.  You are forcing the opponent to drop markers, that can be used by your other models (maybe not the one that forced them to drop it), still seems like a viable tactic.  It is not like there are not successful Parker players out there, which there are.

[Azahul]

44 minutes ago, Autumn King said:

They cannot block line of sight to the marker from all of your models.  All teams have some hurdles they have to make it over to make their tricks work.  This is just one for Parker, and I am not that convinced it is a major issue.  You are forcing the opponent to drop markers, that can be used by your other models (maybe not the one that forced them to drop it), still seems like a viable tactic.  It is not like there are not successful Parker players out there, which there are.

I'm one of them. And you know what forms part of that? Functionally ignoring the existence of Drop It as a trigger. You hire models with other ways to make markers (the Emissary most prominently) if you want to make the Bandit crew work.

 

Also I can't say I've ever hired Bandidos outside of intro games.

[Autumn King]

20 minutes ago, Azahul said:

I'm one of them. And you know what forms part of that? Functionally ignoring the existence of Drop It as a trigger. You hire models with other ways to make markers (the Emissary most prominently) if you want to make the Bandit crew work.

 

Also I can't say I've ever hired Bandidos outside of intro games.

It seems to me that there are a few teams that would be happy to have a model that could potentially get 4x (fast, trigger finger, 2 standard actions) 12 in range attacks at a 2/3/4 track, and all for only 5 stones.  Especially against slower melee heavy teams. Not to mention that Run and Gun is still a great ability on a cheap model. Much of this argument seems rooted in a problem many teams are having on whether or not cheaper minions are worth it.  I tend to believe they all have their place. I am not saying there are not better options, but who wants to always play the same list.  It can be worth branching out, at least to keep our own lists fresh to us.

[Azahul]

Mine come off the shelf when I need to teach a new player the game and want some models that they will be able to deal with easily and won't run the risk of actually killing much on the other side of the table. Virtues in intro games, less so in other games. But hey, it means they have a role and a reason to see table time on occasion. 

[Adran]

13 hours ago, Azahul said:

The problem isn't with a Bandido getting Trigger Finger on its turn, the problem is any other model trying to proc trigger finger. The enemy controls the placement of the Marker with Drop It, so if, say, Mad Dog gets the Drop It trigger the enemy model can always place the marker on the opposite side of their base to the Bandido to block LOS. Trigger Finger is an aura and requires LOS, so this denies them Trigger Finger.

This seems to be something that Wyrd and their playtesters keep missing, because Parker2 has the exact same issue on his Perdition aura.

One thing worth remembering is that trigger finger is not a linear power ability, by which I mean 2 trigger fingers is not simply twice as good as 1 trigger finger. One trigger finger will likely go off once per turn. Two trigger finger auras are able to go off once per activation, and three auras is twice per activation. 

Edit- always check the cards... The fact it is a once per turn does reduce its scaling, but it's still not purely linear in its power. 

So trying to make 1 bandito worth 5 ss has the risk of making 2 well worth more than 10 ss. 

( my personal feelings are that when they were playtested they were generally hired in at least pairs, but the game understanding evolved so that soon after release people started playing in a way that made cheap models much less viable to pick than they had seemed during the testing, so lots of cheap models aren't chosen now. I'm largely laying the blame on focus...). 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Adran

[Maniacal_cackle]

I place most of the blame on movement, since it is trivially easy to close the gap to cheap models and then kill them with focus, flurry, two attacks, puncture, outcarding for a straight flip, lucky flips, etc.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I place most of the blame on movement, since it is trivially easy to close the gap to cheap models and then kill them with focus, flurry, two attacks, puncture, outcarding for a straight flip, lucky flips, etc.

The problem with laying the blame there is that in last edition you typically had a greater range where you could make 2 attacks on an opponent than you do this edition ( the range for 1 attack has increased, but 1 attack without focus typically does not kill a cheap model). 

Last edition you probably had the ability to make 2 attacks at about 9" away. This edition a  similar model can make 2 attacks at 6" and 1 attack at 11". 

[Azahul]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

One thing worth remembering is that trigger finger is not a linear power ability, by which I mean 2 trigger fingers is not simply twice as good as 1 trigger finger. One trigger finger will likely go off once per turn. Two trigger finger auras are able to go off once per activation, and three auras is twice per activation. 

So trying to make 1 bandito worth 5 ss has the risk of making 2 well worth more than 10 ss. 

( my personal feelings are that when they were playtested they were generally hired in at least pairs, but the game understanding evolved so that soon after release people started playing in a way that made cheap models much less viable to pick than they had seemed during the testing, so lots of cheap models aren't chosen now. I'm largely laying the blame on focus...). 

Trigger Finger is a Once Per Turn rule, so it doesn't quite scale that well. Plus the Drop It issues plus the reasonable unlikelihood of the Bandido getting the trigger on its own activation means that you probably get a number of Trigger Finger actions equal to X-1 where X is the number of Bandidos you hire. Once you've had two successful trigger finger actions odds are your opponent will be able to avoid having a third come up, so that's a pretty hard cap against crazy scaling.

 

Your theory about why they ended up this way is probably reasonable. I'd really just like to see Trigger Finger lose the aura symbol (same for Perdition) and Bandidos gain maybe one defensive rule. That would probably be enough. 

[Autumn King]

1 hour ago, Azahul said:

Trigger Finger is a Once Per Turn rule, so it doesn't quite scale that well. Plus the Drop It issues plus the reasonable unlikelihood of the Bandido getting the trigger on its own activation means that you probably get a number of Trigger Finger actions equal to X-1 where X is the number of Bandidos you hire. Once you've had two successful trigger finger actions odds are your opponent will be able to avoid having a third come up, so that's a pretty hard cap against crazy scaling.

 

Your theory about why they ended up this way is probably reasonable. I'd really just like to see Trigger Finger lose the aura symbol (same for Perdition) and Bandidos gain maybe one defensive rule. That would probably be enough. 

Wyrd rarely gives without taking away.  What would you be willing to lose off the Bandito?

The Bandito really have a lot going on for 5 stone.  They have a defense trigger that can move them 5 inches, an attack trigger that can move them 3 inches, they can be anti scheme with "Life of Crime," and still have the potential to spam 4 shots at 12 inches in a turn (even if it can be hard to pull off).  They also have a poor man's obey with "At gunpoint." Not to mention "Run and Gun" effectively gives them an extra move over other crews ranged pieces. 

I guess my point is, that is far more abilities then most 5 stone models in the game.  What are we willing to give up to gain an improvement elsewhere?

 

[Azahul]

1 minute ago, Autumn King said:

Wyrd rarely gives without taking away.  What would you be willing to lose off the Bandito?

The Bandito really have a lot going on for 5 stone.  They have a defense trigger that can move them 5 inches, an attack trigger that can move them 3 inches, they can be anti scheme with "Life of Crime," and still have the potential to spam 4 shots at 12 inches in a turn (even if it can be hard to pull off).  They also have a poor man's obey with "At gunpoint." Not to mention "Run and Gun" effectively gives them an extra move over other crews ranged pieces. 

I guess my point is, that is far more abilities then most 5 stone models in the game.  What are we willing to give up to gain an improvement elsewhere?

 

Wyrd gives all the time without taking away. Not sure what you mean there.

 

But hey, it's not like there isn't a ton of useless text on their card. They could lose At Gunpoint easily. I wish that action were good, but realistically it never does anything. They could lose their knife too and I wouldn't really notice. Most of the time if they get engaged in melee they're dead, so it doesn't matter if they have a melee attack or not.

 

I'd disagree that Bandidos have more going for them than most Cost 5 models in the game. They're the worst Cost 5 model in Outcasts, and by a margin at that. And for those they're better than, well, there's a bit of a systemic issue with Cost 5 models not getting played, so being better than some isn't the same as being actually playable. For the Bandidos specifically it doesn't matter how much they do, the problem is that they die. A low cost model with no defences is easy activation control for your opponent, and at that point you're looking at a liability rather than an asset. 

[Autumn King]

5 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Wyrd gives all the time without taking away. Not sure what you mean there.

 

But hey, it's not like there isn't a ton of useless text on their card. They could lose At Gunpoint easily. I wish that action were good, but realistically it never does anything. They could lose their knife too and I wouldn't really notice. Most of the time if they get engaged in melee they're dead, so it doesn't matter if they have a melee attack or not.

 

I'd disagree that Bandidos have more going for them than most Cost 5 models in the game. They're the worst Cost 5 model in Outcasts, and by a margin at that. And for those they're better than, well, there's a bit of a systemic issue with Cost 5 models not getting played, so being better than some isn't the same as being actually playable. For the Bandidos specifically it doesn't matter how much they do, the problem is that they die. A low cost model with no defences is easy activation control for your opponent, and at that point you're looking at a liability rather than an asset. 

I think more durability for the cost of the knife and At gunpoint could be a fair trade, if it were for hit points. I feel increasing DF would not be fitting.