Bete what’s her deal?

[50 SS Enforcer]

Bete is an 8 stone enforcer that I’m not entirely sure what to do with, she feels like she wants to be killing models, but I’m not sure she does it well in keyword. She seems like a mess. Maybe this topic would do better in the errata, but what do you feel bete noire’s purpose is? And does everything else do it better?  

[Maniacal_cackle]

She's a schemer in my view.

She's good at vendetta, and that's the main 'killy' thing I use her for. Other than that, her incredible mobility makes her good at scheming (particularly if you play it RAW that she can charge around the battlefield using her bonus).

[Korrok]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

(particularly if you play it RAW that she can charge around the battlefield using her bonus).

That part always seemed pretty cut and dry to me. But 🤷

Also I agree. She seems like a particularly fast model that can hold its own well whole scheming. 

[SEV]

She's also a good anti-schemer. She's quite fast and 3 6+ attack is usually enough to kill ccheming models. 

But yeah, with my limited Seamus experience, I also have an hard time using her in KW. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I use her with Reva wayyyy more!

[50 SS Enforcer]

Doesn’t manos just do absolutely everything she does but better? Discount manos? Any interactions I’m missing? I’m always disappointed in this model especially in keyword. 2/3/4 even with crit strike is meh. If she had pouncing strike sure, but idk, she feels like she wants to be killing to me. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 minutes ago, 50 SS Enforcer said:

Doesn’t manos just do absolutely everything she does but better? Discount manos? Any interactions I’m missing? I’m always disappointed in this model especially in keyword. 2/3/4 even with crit strike is meh. If she had pouncing strike sure, but idk, she feels like she wants to be killing to me. 

Manos takes a card to leap. She doesn't take a card to charge (though she does take a mask to bury, it changes the dynamic since you don't need a TN and she has built in positives).

Also her mobility is superior if you play a corpse-themed reva. Since she can move across the entire table with an AP to spare.

EDIT: Also she is better at surviving and costs one less, which matters for Vendetta, Hidden Martyrs, etc.

[Metalhed]

She is so good at vendetta. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think the biggest issue with her, assuming you follow the MWS interpretation on Rise Again, is a massive disconnect between her appearance and fluff vs what she actually does. She looks like she’s supposed to be a killer. Her fluff paints her as a killer. Unfortunately, she’s not a killer. What she is is pretty good utility. The fact that she doesn’t do well what it seems like she’s supposed to is, in my opinion, the issue for many people. 
 

What she is, to me, is a very good utility piece. She’s a very good scheme runner*, she hunts opposing scheme runners well, she can tie up and harass big beaters and other threatening models, and just provides good all around useful things a crew might want. Her biggest issue, again assuming you follow MWS interpretation, is the corpse tax.
 

For Bete to be good you have to have incidental corpse generation as part of your crew. Either models in your crew you were going to take anyway who just happen to create corpses, or playing against a crew that you can reliably create corpses from, and who also won’t be using them. If you have to hire a model, and their main job is providing corpses for her, you’ve effectively raised her cost by that amount. At 12 stones, which is the cheapest reliable corpse generation comes in at I think, she’s woefully overcosted. But if the corpses she uses are incidental, then she’s pretty solid if not amazing value. Which is why she’s almost always going to have more value for Reva than Seamus, since incidental corpse creation is kinda part of Reva’s whole master abilities. It’s not part of Seamus’ which is why she’s a little more clunky in his crew, especially since both versions of Seamus have their own need for corpses, which increases the pressure Bete’s tax causes.

 

*Of course this is all meaningless if you don’t allow Bete to use rise again if she’s in the table. If you don’t follow MWS interpretation of that rule, paint her well, put her in your display case, look at her approvingly, and never let her get anywhere close to an actual game, she’s absolutely awful without that rules interaction.

[Morgan Vening]

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Of course this is all meaningless if you don’t allow Bete to use rise again if she’s in the table.

I'm a little confused in what is being ruled upon here.

Is it that she can teleport even if she's on the table, or is it that she can do a variation of Trail of Gore? Which is weird if there's no range limitation. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

The MWS faq ruled that Bete can use her rise again action regardless of whether she is buried or not. There is pretty strong communal agreement that that interpretation probably wasn’t intended, but as per the way it’s worded, according to the rules, it’s allowable.
 

The practical upshot is that Bete can use her bonus action to destroy a corpse anywhere on the table each turn to get a free charge action. She doesn’t get the unbury portion of she’s on the table, because she isn’t buried, but the first sentence isn’t contingent on having to occur for the second sentence to happen.

This isn’t official Wyrd FAQ. And of course they could rule otherwise. It was a big topic of conversation last errata if they would address it, and they didn’t. I suspect it’s for the same reason the MWS rules the way they did.

Technically it does work according to RAW, Bete is not jaw dropping amazing with the ruling, she’s just pretty good, and she’s pretty awful without it. The speculation at the time of the last errata was Wyrd would keep their eye on it and clarify against her if it looked like she was out of control. 

[fire5tone]

Tbh, reading the card, it's pretty clear that it's how the action works, whether it makes sense or not or intended

Also, no it doesn't just teleport bete to the corpse marker as it's an unbury effect that does that, and if you aren't buried you ignore unburies

[Morgan Vening]

28 minutes ago, fire5tone said:

Tbh, reading the card, it's pretty clear that it's how the action works, whether it makes sense or not or intended

Also, no it doesn't just teleport bete to the corpse marker as it's an unbury effect that does that, and if you aren't buried you ignore unburies

I just wanted to be clear that wasn't how that group was ruling.

I think the main argument against the interpretation is the otherwise superfluous "then", in the wording of the second non-italicised sentence. If it wasn't intended to be reliant on the first sentence, it wouldn't be needed.

To be clear, I've no clue how it's supposed to be interpreted, and no preference for how it should. But I do think there's some ambiguity, and the whole "I remove the Corpse Marker from three feet away" seems weird. I'd have expected it to have a range when not unburying, similar to Trail of Gore. 

Hope it gets clarified, and happy to play whichever way.

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I think the biggest issue with her, assuming you follow the MWS interpretation on Rise Again, is a massive disconnect between her appearance and fluff vs what she actually does. She looks like she’s supposed to be a killer. Her fluff paints her as a killer. Unfortunately, she’s not a killer. What she is is pretty good utility. The fact that she doesn’t do well what it seems like she’s supposed to is, in my opinion, the issue for many people. 
 

What she is, to me, is a very good utility piece. She’s a very good scheme runner*, she hunts opposing scheme runners well, she can tie up and harass big beaters and other threatening models, and just provides good all around useful things a crew might want. Her biggest issue, again assuming you follow MWS interpretation, is the corpse tax.
 

For Bete to be good you have to have incidental corpse generation as part of your crew. Either models in your crew you were going to take anyway who just happen to create corpses, or playing against a crew that you can reliably create corpses from, and who also won’t be using them. If you have to hire a model, and their main job is providing corpses for her, you’ve effectively raised her cost by that amount. At 12 stones, which is the cheapest reliable corpse generation comes in at I think, she’s woefully overcosted. But if the corpses she uses are incidental, then she’s pretty solid if not amazing value. Which is why she’s almost always going to have more value for Reva than Seamus, since incidental corpse creation is kinda part of Reva’s whole master abilities. It’s not part of Seamus’ which is why she’s a little more clunky in his crew, especially since both versions of Seamus have their own need for corpses, which increases the pressure Bete’s tax causes.

 

*Of course this is all meaningless if you don’t allow Bete to use rise again if she’s in the table. If you don’t follow MWS interpretation of that rule, paint her well, put her in your display case, look at her approvingly, and never let her get anywhere close to an actual game, she’s absolutely awful without that rules interaction.

I think all these issues are the same whether or not you use the ruling she can use the bonus on the table.

The strongest part of her kit is the teleport anyway, so that's what you should be using IMO.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The teleport only really works if you are putting corpses where you want her to show up. Reva is one of the only masters that can reliably do that. For anyone else *shrug*.

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

The teleport only really works if you are putting corpses where you want her to show up. Reva is one of the only masters that can reliably do that. For anyone else *shrug*.

Reva and carrion emissary I think, but yeah Reva is the one I use it with.

[DeadManTalking]

Bete seems like she would be good in a Mcmourning2 list. Haven't tried him yet but from what I've read he wants corpse generation anyways and then when Bete does her Rise Again trick he gets card draw or just replaces the marker.

[Regelridderen]

I do have a hard time accepting the MWS ruling with the (un)Bury-rules. 

But then again it’s what keeps Bete in the game. So I prefer a house rule over shelf fillers any day 😊

@ConfuciuSay your idea might be a little flawed. When your list is generating corpse markers with a purpose, you’re actually hampering that by introducing another use for them. 

There’s a lot of resource management in Malifaux. E.g. it’s common for keywords and factions to focus on a particular suit, but if you run a crew entirely based on Crow-triggers, you’ll be struggling to get them all off, while 3/4 of your deck will have very little magic to it. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

There's an FAQ on buries and ignoring them. You only ignore the bury/unbury, not the other effects iirc.

[DeadManTalking]

8 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

 

@ConfuciuSay your idea might be a little flawed. When your list is generating corpse markers with a purpose, you’re actually hampering that by introducing another use for them.

Normally I'd agree with you, but with McMourning's ability to effectively negate the cost of her action, or to gain further resources from it I don't see that to be wholly true. 

[Regelridderen]

3 hours ago, ConfuciuSay said:

Normally I'd agree with you, but with McMourning's ability to effectively negate the cost of her action, or to gain further resources from it I don't see that to be wholly true. 

Ooh, nifty - haven’t seen McMurder on the table though