Rasputina - problems and possible fixes

[Filox]

So, I'm competitive Malifaux player, pretty high in ranking in my country also, lastly played a lot of vassal with various players from different countries so I saw a lot of their metas. And never seen Rasputina being played, later I tried converging into Arcanist (Guild Player here) and starter from her. First matches were awful, did not know when to Ice Pillar or when to just focus and try blasting, is Blizzard should be used now or just charge and do 3 attacks with Ice Pillar next to me for bonus damage. Is Freeze Over better than Blasts? First 10 games was learning, next 20 ones were improving my playstyle and even next x games were just using the results in high difficult matches with strong opponents. I can say right now that I know a lot about her, how to get value and what to do when. So back to the topic, she is so weak right now in schemes and in models it's not even funny.

Rasputina in her own is great resources removal for the enemy meaning slows, discards and pillars. But, the amount of resource other masters can generate with possibilities to outgun/outmaneuver her is just crazy (especially with ES master like Jedza or Maxime, but let's keep them away from discussion for now).

Ice Golem is okay, tho he does not offer anything beside damage, and he can't even done it good enough with his Wk 4 and only defense ability being armor +2. Blizzards is most of the time a bad value, mostly because it's an action. 

Snowstorm is must have if you want to have Ice Golem (push for his Wk, push with his Shockwave, pushing with his claw attack for value from Blizzard), but he is soo fragile for 9 SS cost model, 6 Df is okay, Middle of The Storm is way too situational. Melee attack lacks good triggers. Overall his value in in pushing friendly December models, and we pay 9 SS for that.

Blessed of December is only okay model in this crew, but looking at the Damned I think we just got worst version so I won't be speaking too much into it.

December Acolyte is just plain bad. You take him only against Hoffman or other mass armor crews. 

Silent One is okay, fine healing, Ice Pillar makers and slow on attacks...
... we are going to back for it later.

Ice Dancer are okayish? I think? Took it rarely, Blessed is better scheme runner. They are kinda overpriced for their stats and abilities. Die way to quickly. Comparing them to Silurids they look laughable.

Hoarcats are okay, but are not used very often, you are better with picking Silent One. His triggers are useless (armor piercing for 1/2/4 is bad), Swallow you Whole and Eat Your Fill with Stealth and Maniplative, this model won't survive so long to get value from healing or just won't take so much damage to use this heal properly.

Ice Gamins are bad, Fire Gamins for the same cost do much more and are much more durable. Overall stronger model on it's on and greater combo with keyword.

Wendigo is okay, no issues with him in current form thought he is lacking in some areas.

Rasputina is the biggest issue here. Blasts are just bad 'cause of friendly fire, cover from your own Ice Pillars. Push of 1" inch  suppose to be a combo with blizzard but with all those minuses it's nor worth, especially when you need to focus to get the blasts. Freeze Over is only good attack action which you gonna spam all time long. Her having ruthless is strange because she does not attack enemies directly. You activation looks like this Ice Pillars with triggers, Freeze Over until you run out off actions and then Shutter. Breathtaking, isn't it?

As you see there are a lot of issues with her and crew at current moment which could really use some changes. Here I'm gonna lists some.

Rasputina:

- remove ruthless

- add ability that let's her use friendly models with Demise(Frozen Heart) as Ice Pillars or just treat them as they are for the entire game. If Ice Pillar would be removed the targeted model suffer 2 damage instead.

- add ability that let's her ignore friendly models with Demise(Frozen Heart) for friendly Fire purposes

- add ability If she is a crew leader, friendly December models can ignore blocking trait of Ice Pillars (which means removing cover, and they can walk thru it but end move on them.

- add trigger to Ice Pillars Action to summon Ice Gamin instead of Ice Pillar (Ice Gamins come with slow)

 Wendigo:

- add ability to be treated as Ice Pillar for all purposes (Ice Golem gets +, Sacrifice to December can trigger next to him

- increase wound pool to 6, increase cost to 4/5

- add manipulative

Snowstorm:

- add defensive ability so he can survive combat better, same one as Raspa maybe or get armor +1 if within 2"/3" of Ice Pillar

- add Hard to Wound

- add Eat Your Fill

- change Middle of the Storm for giving out Concealment in 5"

- add ability to move thru Ice Pillars or destroy them

- remove projectile from Ice Tornado

- December Command should be move instead of Push

- change Charge Through for Diving Charge

- add Freeze the Corpse bonus action

Blessed of December:

- add Breath of Frost attack action (same as The Damned) with the same trigger

- add unimpeded ability

- add +1 do Wd and Wk

Ice Golem:

- merge Blizzard and Reform from Ice to make it work like this " remove any number of ice pillars within range, make hazardous within range, if you removed 2 or more ice pillars change damage from hazardous to 2. This action is still a bonus action. You still heal 2 for each Ice Pillars. 

- add +1 to Wk

December Acolyte:

- add ability to ignore Ice Pillars for cover

- give build in reposition

- add stagger trigger

Ice Dancer:

- add manipulative ability

- add ability if enemy model gains slow he also gets distracted (probably 4-6" )

- add +1 to engagement range

Silent One:

- Ignore Ice Pillars and Friendly models with Demise(Frozen Touch) for purposes of Cover and Friendly Fire

- gains armor +1 if within 2-3" of Ice Pillars (the same as Snow Storm)

Hoarcat:

- remove Swallow You Whole trigger

- remove manipulative ability

- change Trample to also ignore Ice Pillars

- add reposition or onslaught trigger

- add leap bonus action

- add unimpeded ability

Ice Gamin:

- give built in slow triggers on both attacks

- encase in ice should give Shielded +2 or armor +1 until the end phase

- change Frostbite for bonus action that should deal 1 dmg always whenever enemy model would gain slow and not instead (nullifies with Ice Pillars discard ability)

- give them ability to move thru Ice Pillars or teleport between them

- add bonus action to remove one Ice Pillar to heal 2 dmg

 

Of course not all changes should be applied at once, some are just alts for one proposed in this post. In some cases here all changes should be applied or most of them at least. what are your thoughts on those I proposed, what are your own ideas? Let's talk and hear what you got to say!

 

PART 2

After 10 more games against ES I found Rasputina being an auto "pack your models and go drink", almost same as Nekima (Jedza scares the shit out of her). December gets easily countered by Jedza(healing convert into damage makes Grim Feast and Healing Energy on Silent One useless), Ivan(concealing, high mobility with static crew like December can't compete very well), Maxime(passes every shockwave on weaks thanks to Reconfigure and draws a card each time they cheat with it also Machinists shut downing main reason we play Rasputina). I'm not gonna list every ES master here because that's not the point (btw we are strong against Cadmus, and only Cadmus). After looking at some of their mechanics (and also for some more possibilities in faction and OOF) I came up with folowing, better changes. The are mostly made by private talks with other players who play AR or against them.

 

Rasputian:
- change Ice Mirror to being able to declare triggers without card discards (why Cadmus, Zoraida, Sandeep and Serena can take LoS and range and attack without discarding cards for triggers buts Rasputina can't? Is Wyrd so afraid about bringing back Nukes? Then, let me tell you something, similar problem is in GU, we don't have almost any pushes for Sonnia except Ride with Me. Making it impossible to get Sonnia close anywhere in short time. Second she is not able to blast your ass from this side of the earth mostly because of new Cover. But even if you apply burning on enemy models we are still dealing with SS for for damage or prevent. It's not easy to just kill any important models, especially when we know what master are we going to play against. Counters are big thing now and a lot models can easily shut down Sonnia, same thing with Rasputina.

- add Sacrifice to December ability (why can't Rasputina sacrifice enemies to herself? She does not have overwhelming damage to make this broken, although this ability does not need to be added if other option are considered)

- change Ice Mirror to being able to summon Ice Gamin, it could be done by the trigger:
 Ice Sculpture: Once per activation. This trigger may only be declared if this model used Ice Mirror ability for this action. Immediately change the effect of this action to. Summon an Ice Gamin model in base contact with Ice Pillar from which this model draw LoS. (It easy cheese proof, no Gamins for 21" range. Simple summon from Ice Pillar in 8" from Rasputina. I know that Wendigo can also summon it from December Pawn action. But we can change to once per turn, but we must ask ourselves is 2 Ice Gamins for 5 and 7 in 2 different activation without any bonkers card draw and 7+ focus Ice Golem. We must also sacrifice our own Ice Pillars, removing some of our tech pieces on a table.

- add ability to ignore models with Demise( Frozen Heart ) for purposes of Friendly Fire (just do it, we can't even fucking shoot straight, we have to shockwave thru)

Ice Golem is the slowest model in the entire crew, just giving him Laugh Off or Unyielding would be sufficient. He is an ICE MOUNTAIN for everything what's Soulstone.

Snowstorm changes are too much, I got it looking at The Captain who is kind off better in Snowstorm job in his own crew!

- add ability to gain armor +1 while within 2" of Ice Pillar
- make his shockwave more rewarding, like also pushing enemies for 1" or 2"
- add Hard to Wound
- add Eat Your Fill 

I know we are stacking here bunch of healing and toughness but when Ice Golem is your go to damage dealer, Snowstorm should be your go to tank model to protect your vulnerable backline.

December Acolyte should just get some Defensive tech, or just increase his Df to 6.

Ice Dancer is worst scheme runner in Colette crew. Much easier to just get Soulstone Miner to unbury and place scheme whenever you need it. Putting Manipulative on her would be sufficient to not die from single shots from enemy crew. 

Hoar Cat has too much healing for so fragile model, instead of this some healing, manipulative and useless armor penetration trigger on 1/3/4 damage spread you can give him Leap, it would not broke Marcus too much either 'cause he has Order Initiates and other good beasts for this job.

That would make December a legit keyword. What are your opinions on this exact take to fix Rasputina current position in Malifaux? Would love to hear something from Wyrd itself on what they think about Rasputina and December current position in meta.

 

Part 3

So after another grand discussions about Rasputina problems, here come PART 3 with more balanced and agreed more by citizens of Mx.

 

Rasputina - there wasn't actually much about her outside what we already knew but for all I'm gonna list it anyway with potential fixes

Rasputina & December problems:
-  mediocre or useless keyword abilities (Demise (Frozen Heart), Grim Feast, Sacrifice to December)
- comparing to Euripides & Savage keyword, December models have almost no interactions with Ice Pillars
- only 3 models have decent enough tools (Blessed of December(please, remember that best model in keyword has no keyword synergies) Silent One, Ice Dancer & Ice Golem) to do their job well enough to consider picking them, rest either is not very efficient at they jobs or they toolboxes are lacking to consider them viable competitive pick (December Acolyte, Snowstorm, Hoar Cats & Gamins) 
- very resource hungry keyword with no way of generating  them in keyword (Sacrifice to December is not reliable enough compared to Loot Their Corpse to recognize it as a way to generate SS, also it is placed on supportive and tech models (Snowstorm being supp/tech model, he is not beater you can take to beat up you enemy)),
- idea of reducing enemy resources to minimum is truly nice although bad in action, Rasputina is spending more resources then she removes from enemy, also counter to her is way too easy pull off if your opponent has any knowledge how to play against her
- Freeze Over is superior action to Winter's Strike in every way (even combo Blizzard + Winter's Strike push is underwhelming)
- cost to declare trigger from Ice Pillars is way too huge to even consider it viable move 80% of the time
 

Rasputina fixes:
There were a lot of topics about her threat range being 21", which is huge in current stat of the game, although for the static keyword as December, there is no other way, Walk action is least taken action in entire keyword, outside of course for Ice Golem which has to finally get into melee range. Another issue are resources which if wanted to be used as they were intended Rasputina would run out of cards at her activation every turn, making Freeze Over only viable attack action on her card. Fix for this would be removing the cost of discard cards for triggers if she would use Ice Pillar as medium of her actions, reduce range on most actions to 8" (Ice Pillars, Winter's Strike). To make Winter's Strike a viable attack option on her card, the faster way of fixing it would either removing projectile action from her or giving ability to ignore Friendly Fire and cover granted by December models and Ice Pillars. Onslaught is not a trigger for Rasputina in some opinion and I agree with this, would like to see it changed for something else. Freeze Over could get trigger or ability to  ignore December for damages and conditions  and just push them instead, same as Snowstorm shockwaves.

Ice Golem:
Raw damaging models are not viable (at least in current state of the game and GGs), we can see it in Nekima, Victorias, LJ & Sonnia cases, thou ability to help him around the board faster is dire need. Fix for this would be either giving him Ice Path or ability to attack through Ice Pillars. There were also ideas to add triggers on Blizzard action to make it more rewarding.

December Acolytes:
They want to keep enemy models near Ice Pillars thou they have projectiles and do not ignore cover. Analyze Weakness is the only thing you could consider an option to pick them (there are not a lot of heave armor crews which) Tools for the job is also strange ability on them, although they biggest weakness is lack of defensive tech for 7SS model. Quick fix for them would be giving them Tundra Hunter which would mitigate Ice Pillars cover in some way and reward you for great positioning. Also Df stat increase or some other ability would also really help them being a viable pick.

Silent Ones:
Is okay supportive model, though fixes to Rasputina for either removing projectile or ignoring FF and cover as removing cost for using triggers should apply to them as well.

Hoar Cats:
They just need leap. This can be acquired by removing manipulative and/or Tundra Hunter.

Snowstorm:
No clear job outside pushing Ice Golem into combat (for 9SS it's overpay). In melee combat he not decent at all, he won't hold the line even for one turn. Fix would be increasing his survivability in combat by giving him either HtW or Armor if he is next to Ice Pillar.

Wendingo:
Okay model, not changes needed for now.

Ice Gamins: 
Are waste of SS, either must be able to be summoned or some serious buffs are required. Compared to other Gamins they fall really short.

Ice Dences:
Great scheme runners, although the can be shot down way too fast, also they for 6SS they are not so great scheme runners. Giving them manipulative would suffice to keep them long enough so they can do their jobs. Ability to change Ice Pillars into scheme markers would be great, although it may be too much. 

Keyword abilities fixes:
Sacrifice to December - change to 8" for example, and whenever enemy (or just models) dies within 2" of Ice Pillar you can either get SS or draw card. It would help other models & keyword to use this ability, and with this change we could keep this ability on key/supportive models.
Grim Feast is okay, although it should be consider just lore ability with no real cost into models stats/abilities/trigger/actions.
Frozen Heart is just a freebie with more lore then actual use in game. they should be consider the same as Grim Feast.
Add more interactions with Ice Pillars.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Filox said:

So, I'm competitive Malifaux player, pretty high in ranking in my country also, lastly played a lot of vassal with various players from different countries so I saw a lot of their metas. And never seen Rasputina being played, later I tried converging into Arcanist (Guild Player here) and starter from her. First matches were awful, did not know when to Ice Pillar or when to just focus and try blasting, is Blizzard should be used now or just charge and do 3 attacks with Ice Pillar next to me for bonus damage. Is Freeze Over better than Blasts? First 10 games was learning, next 20 ones were improving my playstyle and even next x games were just using the results in high difficult matches with strong opponents. I can say right now that I know a lot about her, how to get value and what to do when. So back to the topic, she is so weak right now in schemes and in models it's not even funny.

Rasputina in her own is great resources removal for the enemy meaning slows, discards and pillars. But, the amount of resource other masters can generate with possibilities to outgun/outmaneuver her is just crazy (especially with ES master like Jedza or Maxime, but let's keep them away from discussion for now).

Ice Golem is okay, tho he does not offer anything beside damage, and he can't even done it good enough with his Wk 4 and only defense ability being armor +2. Blizzards is most of the time a bad value, mostly because it's an action. 

Snowstorm is must have if you want to have Ice Golem (push for his Wk, push with his Shockwave, pushing with his claw attack for value from Blizzard), but he is soo fragile for 9 SS cost model, 6 Df is okay, Middle of The Storm is way too situational. Melee attack lacks good triggers. Overall his value in in pushing friendly December models, and we pay 9 SS for that.

Blessed of December is only okay model in this crew, but looking at the Damned I think we just got worst version so I won't be speaking too much into it.

December Acolyte is just plain bad. You take him only against Hoffman or other mass armor crews. 

Silent One is okay, fine healing, Ice Pillar makers and slow on attacks...
... we are going to back for it later.

Ice Dancer are okayish? I think? Took it rarely, Blessed is better scheme runner. They are kinda overpriced for their stats and abilities. Die way to quickly. Comparing them to Silurids they look laughable.

Hoarcats are okay, but are not used very often, you are better with picking Silent One. His triggers are useless (armor piercing for 1/2/4 is bad), Swallow you Whole and Eat Your Fill with Stealth and Maniplative, this model won't survive so long to get value from healing or just won't take so much damage to use this heal properly.

Ice Gamins are bad, Fire Gamins for the same cost do much more and are much more durable. Overall stronger model on it's on and greater combo with keyword.

Wendigo is okay, no issues with him in current form thought he is lacking in some areas.

Rasputina is the biggest issue here. Blasts are just bad 'cause of friendly fire, cover from your own Ice Pillars. Push of 1" inch  suppose to be a combo with blizzard but with all those minuses it's nor worth, especially when you need to focus to get the blasts. Freeze Over is only good attack action which you gonna spam all time long. Her having ruthless is strange because she does not attack enemies directly. You activation looks like this Ice Pillars with triggers, Freeze Over until you run out off actions and then Shutter. Breathtaking, isn't it?

As you see there are a lot of issues with her and crew at current moment which could really use some changes. Here I'm gonna lists some.

Rasputina:

- remove ruthless

- add ability that let's her use friendly models with Demise(Frozen Heart) as Ice Pillars or just treat them as they are for the entire game. If Ice Pillar would be removed the targeted model suffer 2 damage instead.

- add ability that let's her ignore friendly models with Demise(Frozen Heart) for friendly Fire purposes

- add ability If she is a crew leader, friendly December models can ignore blocking trait of Ice Pillars (which means removing cover, and they can walk thru it but end move on them.

- add trigger to Ice Pillars Action to summon Ice Gamin instead of Ice Pillar (Ice Gamins come with slow)

 Wendigo:

- add ability to be treated as Ice Pillar for all purposes (Ice Golem gets +, Sacrifice to December can trigger next to him

- increase wound pool to 6, increase cost to 4/5

- add manipulative

Snowstorm:

- add defensive ability so he can survive combat better, same one as Raspa maybe or get armor +1 if within 2"/3" of Ice Pillar

- add Hard to Wound

- add Eat Your Fill

- change Middle of the Storm for giving out Concealment in 5"

- add ability to move thru Ice Pillars or destroy them

- remove projectile from Ice Tornado

- December Command should be move instead of Push

- change Charge Through for Diving Charge

- add Freeze the Corpse bonus action

Blessed of December:

- add Breath of Frost attack action (same as The Damned) with the same trigger

- add unimpeded ability

- add +1 do Wd and Wk

Ice Golem:

- merge Blizzard and Reform from Ice to make it work like this " remove any number of ice pillars within range, make hazardous within range, if you removed 2 or more ice pillars change damage from hazardous to 2. This action is still a bonus action. You still heal 2 for each Ice Pillars. 

- add +1 to Wk

December Acolyte:

- add ability to ignore Ice Pillars for cover

- give build in reposition

- add stagger trigger

Ice Dancer:

- add manipulative ability

- add ability if enemy model gains slow he also gets distracted (probably 4-6" )

- add +1 to engagement range

Silent One:

- Ignore Ice Pillars and Friendly models with Demise(Frozen Touch) for purposes of Cover and Friendly Fire

- gains armor +1 if within 2-3" of Ice Pillars (the same as Snow Storm)

Hoarcat:

- remove Swallow You Whole trigger

- remove manipulative ability

- change Trample to also ignore Ice Pillars

- add reposition or onslaught trigger

- add leap bonus action

- add unimpeded ability

Ice Gamin:

- give built in slow triggers on both attacks

- encase in ice should give Shielded +2 or armor +1 until the end phase

- change Frostbite for bonus action that should deal 1 dmg always whenever enemy model would gain slow and not instead (nullifies with Ice Pillars discard ability)

- give them ability to move thru Ice Pillars or teleport between them

- add bonus action to remove one Ice Pillar to heal 2 dmg

 

Of course not all changes should be applied at once, some are just alts for one proposed in this post. In some cases here all changes should be applied or most of them at least. what are your thoughts on those I proposed, what are your own ideas? Let's talk and hear what you got to say!

rasputina is the weakest arcanist master, she can only play ley lines or symbols; 

rasputina-just give her projectile atack ignoring cover and concealment(mayby ability-ignores cover, concealment when targeting models near ice pillars)ff never works with her; and make slow and push not only damaged models

blessed is very good, on the level of damned even without breath of frost

silent one is good

hoarcat are useless

golem-just give him laugh off(or when this model is within 2" from ice pillar-it cannot be moved by enemy models), he is fine, but opp just can place him in the ass of your crew and he will be running all game long

acolytes are too exspansive for what they are doing; and again they need maybe ability like:" ignores cover, concealment when targeting models near ice pillar"(maybe 2" will be enough)

ice dancers have no defensive abilities; they can push very far, but then they will die

snowstorm-tried to play him, but he is too weak in melee to survive and shokwaves are not the best way to play the game

gamins-they are waste of stones if u hire them from start of the game

 

[Filox]

5 hours ago, Plaag said:

blessed is very good, on the level of damned even without breath of frost

Snowstorm-tried to play him, but he is too weak in melee to survive and shokwaves are not the best way to play the game

 

Well, I see Damned clearly as superior model (better Eat Your Fill, though he lacks Def 6 and Onslaught he got Old Ways which is amazing, more often gives more value than Df 6; Betreyal which damages models within pulse which is amazing and Unimpeded which Blessed lacks; also one more wound for free).

Removing projectiles gives you ability to went of engagement range and do some damage, but yeah, in melee he is garbage.

[retnab]

I feel like the biggest issue with M3e Raspy is that the devs wanted so hard for her not to be the big nuke she occasionally was in M2e and instead totally changed the crew from "threatening" to "annoying".  Even things like you mentioned of her Ice Pillars making it harder for her to actually use her blasts feels pretty frustrating to play with.  I haven't touched her since the beta ended and haven't had any desire at all to.

[Harlekin]

On 12/28/2020 at 8:35 PM, Plaag said:

hoarcat are useless

 

If Hoarcats got Leap or 2/3/4 they might see a game every now and then. 

[Euryale]

I agree with all of the above. It's a shame, I really like the December aesthetic and the idea behind their playstyle, but the faction as a whole feels like a bit of a mess of ideas.

It's like the crew was designed by three or four different people who were all given a general idea but never spoke to one another during development. Snowstorm can command other models with Demise Frozen Heart, which sounds great but only three other models have it and only one of them is really worth the push.

Rasputina, the Silent One, Ice Golem, and hoarcats get bonuses for being near ice pillars (including increased range as a bonus), but other models (e.g. December Acolytes, Snowstorm, the Blessed) can only ever be impeded by them, either by being blocked in or them providing cover. 

Some models get a bonus against slowed models, or can cause slow, such as Rasputina's ice pillars, or triggers from the Ice Golem/Snowstorm/Silent One/Acolyte/Dancer. Ice golem does bonus damage against slowed enemies, and the Ice Gamin's frostbite, or mutilate from Silent Ones or an Acolyte. Other models don't interact with slow at all, such as the Blessed or Hoarcats. 

Sacrifice to December is on models that rarely trigger it due to cover or not being able to set up an ice pillar themselves. 

Grim Feast is nice, but it's not a particularly amazing bonus action that adds anything but survivability. In addition, there's no way to generate corpse markers besides dying ourselves so you'll be able to use this ability very sparsely against some crews. 

Some models push, which is kind of random but it happens from Snowstorm, Rasputina, and the Blessed so maybe there was some sort of idea here?

There's no proper unifying rule to the army - a lot of bonuses that work on their own, or are too situational - besides slowing the enemy, and even that's not particularly easy to do with ice pillars given the discard option and out of turn moves. 

That's not to get into how card and soulstone hungry Rasputina herself is for little benefit. Considering Zoraida can act through her own models from 12" and doesn't need to discard, it's quite sad that Rasputina needs to discard for the privilege of an arguably worse ability. In addition, her triggers are what makes her shooting useful in any way, so needing to discard and cheat/soulstone to get the trigger makes it a hard pill to swallow. 

Our action economy is poor, with our aforementioned quick action being very situational and our out of turn moves being super limited. Our ice pillars require an action and a flip to set up and are necessary to play. We have limited ways to aid our own crew and few 'tricks' to pull off with combos. 

I'd like if every model had a way to use ice pillars. While the Ice Golem has issues, I think it's nicely designed in the sense that it has the most interaction between its own rules and the army rules, with ice pillars being used to heal, add rams, slow for extra damage, and create a blizzard. That's not to say it's fantastic now, but rather I like all the interaction it has. If every model had a couple of ways to use ice pillars (not necessarily the same way as the ice golem) I think the army would be in a better place. 

Also, does anyone find it a bit ironic (and sad) that the best model in December (the Blessed) has the least interaction with the rules in December?  

[Filox]

6 minutes ago, Euryale said:

Also, does anyone find it a bit ironic (and sad) that the best model in December (the Blessed) has the least interaction with the rules in December?  

 

[Harlekin]

4 hours ago, Euryale said:

Our action economy is poor, with our aforementioned quick action being very situational and our out of turn moves being super limited. Our ice pillars require an action and a flip to set up and are necessary to play. We have limited ways to aid our own crew and few 'tricks' to pull off with combos. 

To be fair, the Ice Pillars are (semi-)permanent things and we get bonuses like Soulstones for killing nearby, enhanced mobility, Healing, or damage reduction. So, I absolutely do understand why those cost more ressources than just using something as Repeaters for spells. And Raspi 'only' needs to discard when I want to use Triggers; so, it's not this harsh and it's not too hard to keep her in safe distance.

I am still totally with you that more synergies or a bit other help (Triggers for card draw or something) would really be nice. 

I can imagine it's a real pain to balance the December crew as it can easily get over the tipping point: the many possible Slows handed to the enemy while there's a lot of ranged attacks in the crew. I guess you all had those games when things suddenly work because of a few lucky flips and the oppontent is stuck with only 60% of his actions...

In general, I always enjoy bringing December crew to the table, even though I don't really win regularly.

[Filox]

35 minutes ago, Harlekin said:

In general, I always enjoy bringing December crew to the table, even though I don't really win regularly.

I also really like to play them, best theme in entire AR in my opinion, but damn winning with them is hard. Their toolbox is lacking, best models are OOK, December has none of crew abilities and is best model (he is not even OP model, he is average). Entire crew is not fast, not tough and especially not scheme makers. Strange toolbox with strange models with strange abilities.

[ExperimentAlpha]

Is it just me, or does English Ivan do Rasputina's thing better?

> creates terrain that hinders enemies but helps his allies, models consume the terrain and use it to help with attacks

> has living models with different theming than the nonliving crewmembers but both sets synergize with each other

>... but he just has so many more toys to play with.

[NoisyAssassin]

3 hours ago, ExperimentAlpha said:

Is it just me, or does English Ivan do Rasputina's thing better?

Now that you put it like that, no, its not just you 😢😢😢

[Jordon]

4 hours ago, ExperimentAlpha said:

Is it just me, or does English Ivan do Rasputina's thing better?

> creates terrain that hinders enemies but helps his allies, models consume the terrain and use it to help with attacks

> has living models with different theming than the nonliving crewmembers but both sets synergize with each other

>... but he just has so many more toys to play with.

To be fair, the same could be said about Kaeris as well

[Filox]

Added Part 2, please speak what are your thoughts about those one and speak up if you have better or different takes on those problems.

[Harlekin]

There is a simple explanation for Ice Mirror working as it does: the number of Ice Pillars during a game is usually increasing, so Rasputina becomes more and more of a thread while the other crews are rather limited with their repeaters (even Sandeep is when you don't go all Academics - which I've never seen so far) who's numbers are twindling. There also might be a balance issue as the Silent Ones also have Ice Mirror.
Still, I also consider the need to discard a hard for Triggers too hard a hit for Raspi. After all, it's 3 actions we are talking about. And the crew has very limited ways for card draw (none in Keyword). If Wyrd changed it to "discard a card or spend a Soulstone" could help with the possible generation of Soulstones during the game. This could also result in some neat synergies with the Empower of Soulstone Cache. 

In my book, the easiest solution for Ice Mirror is:

a) Remove need for discarding a card for Rasputina (to bring her in line with Sandeep and Zoraida) for using Triggers

b) Change it to "discard a card or spend a Soulstone" in general (aka for Silent Ones)( to prevent unnecessary power creep for Silent Ones and generate some synergies within keyword (see Sacrifice to December)

Snow Storm is generally fine. I only wish he had some kind of defense. I'd recommend adding Ice Shield and then he is just fine. 

I also see the need for a small buff for December Acolytes. I guess a Def Trigger should do the job. Something like "Df : End the Activation of the attacking model"

Ice Golem is really brutal in the right situation but indeed easily disarmed if the right options are available to the opponent. Which almost every single crew has: at least one movement trick. So, I indeed would second your plea for Laugh Off. Or increasing his Move while within 2" of an Ice Pillar. This could also help doing the trick.

I'd aim for just giving the Ice Golem Ice Path with the Sudden Strike Trigger. It's totally in line with the Keyword and the theme and it costs a precious action from our most important beater and it most often costs you a card. Thus, ressource management still is an issue.

Oh, hell, yeah. Friendly Fire. It's the main reason for me only rarely bringing December Acolytes: Spending 7 on a minion who only shoots once during the whole game without having to spend a good ton of ressources.  Please, pretty please, Wyrd, give something to the Ice Gamins and Ice Golem which negates Friendly Fire. Something similar to Sonnia's Witchlings comes to mind: Child of December: Friendly December models ignore this model for the purposes of Friendly Fire. 

- - -  

About the summoning, I can see what you want to achieve and I really think, an occasional lucky summon would help the crew a lot I don't see your solution as valid option. Your summon would just change Raspi to a summoner, which I don't wanna see. But I'd really appreciate seeing something like Sonnia's or the Carrion Emissary's summons: 

Variant A: Raspi can summon an Ice Gamin on Trigger on Ice Pillars: Unexpected Gamin: Summon an Ice Gamin with Slow in base contact to one of the Markers created by this action, then remove that Marker.

This is situational as you usually should be better off with another Ice Pillar. Also, the summon costs reasonable ressource (card or stone). I can see going for 1 Summons per game, maybe 2 every other game.

Variant B: Raspi can summon an Ice Gamin on Trigger on Freeze Over:  Frozen Soul: If any enemy model is killed by damage from this action, Summon an Ice Gamin with Slow in based contact with this killed model, which does not drop any Markers. 

This also is very situational and shouldn't result in more than 1 or very rarely 2 summons every other game.

- - - 

A general solution for Raspi could also be adding a reliable source for Focus (Trigger on Ice Tornado?). 

Or adding some card draw. 

[Filox]

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

b) Change it to "discard a card or spend a Soulstone" in general (aka for Silent Ones)( to prevent unnecessary power creep for Silent Ones and generate some synergies within keyword (see Sacrifice to December)

You won't be spending Soulstone for mutilate( or Chill just to declare it, 2SS to use mediocre trigger? It would make Rasputina even more relying on Freeze Over) and right now you don't even want to attack with it. They are mostly healers and and Ice Pillars generators.

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

Snow Storm is generally fine. I only wish he had some kind of defense. I'd recommend adding Ice Shield and then he is just fine. 

Snowstorm is definitely not fine right now, for 1 SS more and being Henchman he is offering even less then Blessed of December. 

 

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

I also see the need for a small buff for December Acolytes. I guess a Def Trigger should do the job. Something like "Df : End the Activation of the attacking model"

Too OP, Squel would be better.

 

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

I'd aim for just giving the Ice Golem Ice Path with the Sudden Strike Trigger. It's totally in line with the Keyword and the theme and it costs a precious action from our most important beater and it most often costs you a card. Thus, ressource management still is an issue.

Interesting idea, but being able to push for 8", do simple duel and then hit your opponent for low ram is kinda too strong.

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

Oh, hell, yeah. Friendly Fire. It's the main reason for me only rarely bringing December Acolytes: Spending 7 on a minion who only shoots once during the whole game without having to spend a good ton of ressources.  Please, pretty please, Wyrd, give something to the Ice Gamins and Ice Golem which negates Friendly Fire. Something similar to Sonnia's Witchlings comes to mind: Child of December: Friendly December models ignore this model for the purposes of Friendly Fire. 

Said exactly the same, just add to Ice Mirror that you ignore friendly models with Demise Frozen Heart for purposes of FF)

 

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

Variant A: Raspi can summon an Ice Gamin on Trigger on Ice Pillars: Unexpected Gamin: Summon an Ice Gamin with Slow in base contact to one of the Markers created by this action, then remove that Marker.

This is situational as you usually should be better off with another Ice Pillar. Also, the summon costs reasonable ressource (card or stone). I can see going for 1 Summons per game, maybe 2 every other game.

Variant B: Raspi can summon an Ice Gamin on Trigger on Freeze Over:  Frozen Soul: If any enemy model is killed by damage from this action, Summon an Ice Gamin with Slow in based contact with this killed model, which does not drop any Markers. 

This also is very situational and shouldn't result in more than 1 or very rarely 2 summons every other game.

Variant is exactly the same what I said. Variant B is useless 'cause Rasputina never kills. Her job is to slow down advance of enemy crew so you can set up and counter attack at the right moment, or just let your scheme runners run next to enemy to do their job. 

 

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

A general solution for Raspi could also be adding a reliable source for Focus (Trigger on Ice Tornado?). 

Or adding some card draw. 

I think Rasputinas general theme was to remove resources from the enemy while keeping some for you (You know, they are poor) and then use your small resources to outvalue your opponent, not to just rush hand size (This is Youko thing). But getting free focus as freebie from Wendigo seems nice. 

[Jordon]

So I'll give my perspective on the keyword. I've played this game for a while now and Raspy was my first ever master back in 1st edition, so I know the crew pretty well. I'll say that in general I'm not hyper competitive and generally play a crew because I find it interesting rather than powerful. So I tend to look at things from more of a "fun" perspective. Obviously "fun" is a subjective thing and everyone has their own way of defining what is "fun"

 

I'll start off with what I do enjoy.

- Grim Feat: I find it awkward in that most of the models who could benefit (gamin/golem) dont have it while the ranged elements (acolyte/silent ones) are often too far away to use it. However I find this ability more of a thematic nod to the lore rather than a key element in how the crew plays so I'm pretty fine with it. It's a pretty defining theme to the crew's fluff and I do appreciate the inclusion.

- Sacrifice to December: This actually gives a bit more incentive to setup the pillars. I really wish Raspy herself had this ability as she's the one chewing up cards and stones trying to use her abilities. This allows the crew to help her out a bit and overall it's a pretty unique mechanic for the crew (at least in faction).

- Ice Golem: Yeah I understand the issues people have with him but there is no arguing how threatening he can be if your willing to invest some support. In most my games, I get way more work out of the golem than I do Raspy herself. This does inevitably lead to people hiring specific counters but honestly I feel like the golem does what you'd expect. It's big, slow, scary, and synergize great with the core mechanic of the keyword (pillars). So in that regard I think the golem is good.

- Ice Gamin: There's not really much you should expect from a 4ss model but generally I find myself impressed with ice gamin. A very serviceable melee attack with good triggers and a bunch of abilities that synergize well with the crew.

- Silent Ones: They're honestly fantastic. Of all the 5-7ss "in theme" minions across arcanists (think firebranded, initiates, ox mages, showgirls etc) These are far and away the most useful. I hardly ever have a bad activation with them. They synergize well and are highly effective. They also can take a bit of the pressure off of Raspy by setting her up with pillars and the occasional soulstone. Overall a stellar model

- Blessed: I do understand the feedback that this model doesn't really synergize well but I think that's fine. It's nice having a model who can "go it alone" and I've never regretted hiring this model in my crew. If the golem is the tank, then the Blessed is the assassin and I usually find they work well together. This model is great at disrupting and brings a great dynamic to the crew. She's also likely the best beneficiary of grim feast.

Wendigo: He doesn't really do much but just having a mobile ice pillar that can scheme is pretty good on its own. I don't really like Decembers Pawn because it's just too resource intensive but I'll use it for the occasional Winter Strike. I don't really expect much from him but I rarely felt disappointed. 

 

What I find Meh

- Ice Dancers: It's between this model and the Hoarcat who I relegate for scheme running. She has some very interesting abilities but I find she suffers from not really having a super well defined role. Yeah she can play air hockey with scheme markers but that in itself doesn't really justify her cost. However she's not really capable of doing much else. So while I really like a lot of her abilities, I rarely find the opportunity to use them. 

- Hoarcat: Ice dancers scheme better and Ice gamin synergize better with the crew (while also being cheaper). It needs support and careful planning to get anything useful from it. However with said support, I have gotten them to work decently. Overall I find myself bringing them less and less in favor of more gamin. 

- Snow Storm: Honestly if he/she has Ice Mirror, I'd be happy. Again I find this model suffers from a lack of direction. With having a few support abilities, a decent ranged attack and decent melee attack. However I feel like it doesn't really come together cohesively. The melee is solid but I have the blessed and golem for that rol. The ranged attack is nice but expensive, in a crew where cards are at a premium. The support is cool but really only works on one model (the golem). Lastly, I find he/she is pretty fragile for a mid/close range model. Ice mirror would alleviate many of my issues and really makes sense thematically given the "snow" portion of snow storm.

 

What has issues

Raspy:

Okay lets get this out of the way. My big issue with Raspy is that she feels punished for trying to do anything interesting. She's a master who sits back and casts ranged attacks. So already she's fairly bland IMO. As other have mentioned, I find the need to discard for triggers way too punishing. Triggers are really the only thing that make her actions interesting and by discouraging them, it makes her activation feel lifeless and bland.

Also with her not having "Sacrafice to December" again she just feels like a huge resource drain. It's not as though she has insane abilities that would feel busted if she could declare triggers. Everything feels pretty average for a ranged master, except that she needs to pay an additional cost to do the cool stuff that everyone else gets to do.

Lastly is the issue with ice pillars giving cover to the enemy. She's strictly a ranged master and when her core mechanic actually goes against that, it's a big problem.

Overall it just always feels like such an uphill struggle with her activation. I rarely get a sense of satisfaction that I do with other masters. I also play Kaeris, who has a similar mechanic of needing setup in order to work. However in Kaeris' case I feel like the payoff is much more beneficial and overall I find Kaeris does the ranged game better than raspy.

Acolytes: I just don't see their purpose. Silent One's do ranged way better and they're very subpar in melee. They really suffer from ice pillars granting cover despite them wanting pillars to generate soulstones. I feel like they're paying a lot for "from the shadows" when it doesn't really have a huge benefit anymore. Back in M2E, that ability was pretty massive but now it just gets them killed quicker. Overall they have almost no synergy with the crew (especially when compared to the silent ones) and I've completely abandoned them entirely. I could swap this model with a soulstone miner and not miss a thing.

 

So overall I'm pretty happy with most of the crew but Raspy being the resource hog she is really brings the crew down IMO.

[Harlekin]

15 hours ago, Jordon said:

Acolytes: I just don't see their purpose. Silent One's do ranged way better and they're very subpar in melee. They really suffer from ice pillars granting cover despite them wanting pillars to generate soulstones.

I guess the easiest solution for Acolytes was to have their  attack ignore cover (or at least cover from Ice Pillars). They could become a valid option versus armor/shielded crews, then. 
As much as I want to like them as they are now I close to never find a spot for them. 

I usually see me bringing Hoarcats and Snow Storm versus ranged crews quite regularly if the Scheme pool allows. So, they kind of have their spot. 

In general, my main issue with Raspy is the tremendous hunger for cards in the crew. It's a struggle. 
Lost Knowledge (removing a marker for drawing a card) could help? It costs a precious action but might be worth it. I might be reasonable to limit it on Ice Pillar, though, as it would increase her anti-scheming capabilities. On the other hand, it could be okay for a Master with so many things going on and so much tasks on her list, anyways. 

[DuBlanck]

I want the suggestions about reducing cost for Ice Mirror triggers and Ice Golem mobility to happen.

Ice Path is a neat parallel to Rail Golem's Off The Rails too. Or start of activation, place into base contact with an Ice Pillar within 1-3", then remove the Pillar? The flipside is that the Golem does hit hard, and can be set up to hit harder - making that too easy is also a problem.

Friendly Fire is probably the biggest one for me though - easily the most frustrating part of playing a hard-split range/melee crew, where you really need the punchers engaged and the shooters shooting.

On 12/28/2020 at 6:41 PM, Filox said:

Ice Dancer is worst scheme runner in Colette crew. Much easier to just get Soulstone Miner

I would love something to improve the Ice Dancers. I assume part of it is the intent/capability of December Dancers carrying an Ice Pillar along with you to provide permanent Cover, but as noted that's not a thing in Performer. Doubly problematic in Performer, since the opponent is often Focused to avoid Manipulative/Serene, so the Ice Performer is getting big hits with zero mitigation.

On 1/4/2021 at 8:07 PM, Harlekin said:

To be fair, the Ice Pillars are (semi-)permanent things and we get bonuses like Soulstones for killing nearby, enhanced mobility, Healing, or damage reduction.

This is vaguely tickling a memory of a podcaster saying something to the effect of "M2E involved a lot of board state set up and management due to strat/scheme scoring, whereas M3E is more turn by turn". It feels a lot like Raspie is still operating under the old "set up, then extract value" paradigm, she's far less flexible turn to turn than many other Masters.

3 hours ago, Harlekin said:

Lost Knowledge (removing a marker for drawing a card) could help? It costs a precious action but might be worth it. I might be reasonable to limit it on Ice Pillar, though, as it would increase her anti-scheming capabilities.

If your Tina is in a position to remove multiple Scheme Markers, then we play her very differently. Even if she's consuming Corpse (or ice Scrap) Markers, that's a resource balance.

[Jordon]

If we talking subtle changes then I like the suggestion of “discard a card or use a soulstone” as long as she also gets “sacrifice to December”

Otherwise just dropping the need to discard cards for trigger and maybe adding the “if this model is your leader” clause if there is concern with other ice mirror users loosing it as well. 
 

Maybe for models such as the acolyte who suffer worst from ice pillars granting cover. Perhaps taking a page from the Ivan book and not only ignoring cover generated from ice pillars but in fact gaining a bonus as well. That might give them a means to compete with silent ones. It’d also be nice if their pulls also ignored ice pillars because harpoons and ice pillars also don't work well together 

[Mycellanious]

3 hours ago, Jordon said:

 

 

Maybe for models such as the acolyte who suffer worst from ice pillars granting cover. Perhaps taking a page from the Ivan book and not only ignoring cover generated from ice pillars but in fact gaining a bonus as well. That might give them a means to compete with silent ones. It’d also be nice if their pulls also ignored ice pillars because harpoons and ice pillars also don't work well together 

What about giving them Tundra Hunter? At worst it lets you negate the Cover, but if you set up properly you get a benefit. I wouldnt want the harpoon push to ignore Ice Pillars, I think its intential they stop at them so they are within 1" of them. The Harpooners have a cool Lead the Target trigger, maybe that would be good here as well? 

[Filox]

42 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

What about giving them Tundra Hunter? At worst it lets you negate the Cover, but if you set up properly you get a benefit. I wouldnt want the harpoon push to ignore Ice Pillars, I think its intential they stop at them so they are within 1" of them. The Harpooners have a cool Lead the Target trigger, maybe that would be good here as well? 

I love the idea! 

[Tahsarith]

What about Ice Mirror just reduce stat by 1 instead of discard for triggers? 

Like the ideas about Tundra Hunter on Acolytes and Laugh Off on Golem. 

Hoarcat needs a Leap, or at least unimpeded? Or 2/3/4...

Friendly fire feels really bad in Raspy crew. 

Don't know what to do with Ice Dancers... Manipulative would be too good at them? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

One thing to note about Rasputina is that she will be a hell of a nuke at massive range if she can just onslaught 3 times in a turn.

[Harlekin]

40 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing to note about Rasputina is that she will be a hell of a nuke at massive range if she can just onslaught 3 times in a turn.

Addings "Once per Activation"?

[DuBlanck]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing to note about Rasputina is that she will be a hell of a nuke at massive range if she can just onslaught 3 times in a turn.

Discard a card, or the Ice Pillar used for this action?

Adds the manageable but not insignificant cost of set-up AP.