jack daw Jacks Misery (Jack Daw Tactica)

[BarD]

2 hours ago, Plaag said:

u need whisper, not gst

Why whisper over GST?

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, BarD said:

Why whisper over GST?

because) just try

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

because) just try

I know you complained the initial post was too long, but this is far too short to be useful.

I'm assuming your view is use intuition to set the turn up, but you need a good idea of how to run Jack to know how to really use that knowledge, and make use of the bad cards. So yes it will make a good Jack player into a great Jack player, but it won't help make a bad Jack player into a good Jack player as much as the gst safety net will. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I know you complained the initial post was too long, but this is far too short to be useful.

I'm assuming your view is use intuition to set the turn up, but you need a good idea of how to run Jack to know how to really use that knowledge, and make use of the bad cards. So yes it will make a good Jack player into a great Jack player, but it won't help make a bad Jack player into a good Jack player as much as the gst safety net will. 

gst do nothing, jack lives with tormenred ability, he is the master who kills enemy models, so he will heal when he kills someone

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, Plaag said:

gst do nothing, jack lives with tormenred ability, he is the master who kills enemy models, so he will heal when he kills someone

On the face of it regenerate+ 2 looks close to draw 2 cards extra over the turn. So unless you're killing2 models a turn with Jack, you get more heal. 

Whilst I think I can see your point that with a good Jack player you want to use whisper, I still think learning to use Jack you might get more out of Gst.  Once you've learnt how to use him, then switch. 

[Paddywhack]

6 hours ago, Graf said:

11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Some people tech Mourners in to combat Ruthless in Jack Daw, but I don't know about it.

Same issue here. Works well against melee ruthless, doesn't do anything against ranged.

Ah! Maybe that's a way to fix Mourners? Make Weeping Widow so that Friendly models within range (probably less than now)cannot have their Terrifying ignored. That would likely make them far more interesting and useful. Keep the Mourners around your guys and the enemy can't ignore it. Works on Ranged and Melee crews and might actually make the Mourners worth their salt. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Ah! Maybe that's a way to fix Mourners? Make Weeping Widow so that Friendly models within range (probably less than now)cannot have their Terrifying ignored. That would likely make them far more interesting and useful. Keep the Mourners around your guys and the enemy can't ignore it. Works on Ranged and Melee crews and might actually make the Mourners worth their salt. 

Pandora's poltergeist becomes even more powerful, but I like it!

[Graf]

You can just name the ability differently and don't affect anything other than Mourners. 🤷‍♂️

But they're Redchapel/Revenant models. For Seamus this would do at least something. Not sure if it would change much there, but moving from "crap you never take" to "counter-counter-tech" still would be an improvement, I guess? Tormented would like that very much though and Mourners a mandatory OOK pick against Bayou, LJ, etc.

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 minutes ago, Graf said:

You can just name the ability differently and don't affect anything other than Mourners. 🤷‍♂️

But they're Redchapel/Revenant models. For Seamus this would do at least something. Not sure if it would change much there, but moving from "crap you never take" to "counter-counter-tech" still would be an improvement, I guess? Tormented would like that very much though and Mourners a mandatory OOK pick against Bayou, LJ, etc.

Guess we have to slap versatile on them too 😜

[Graf]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

On the face of it regenerate+ 2 looks close to draw 2 cards extra over the turn. So unless you're killing2 models a turn with Jack, you get more heal. 

Whilst I think I can see your point that with a good Jack player you want to use whisper, I still think learning to use Jack you might get more out of Gst.  Once you've learnt how to use him, then switch. 

I think it's more about a language barrier here... Plaag might correct me about that, though xD.

Afaik that approach is general consensus and I've read/heard about this "new players take GST, experienced Whisper" recommendation since early days of M3E. Also makes sense for me. Maybe someone won't bother playing with training weels, and there is some merit to that, but that's deep into personal preference territory.

[Saduhem]

As much as I know Plaag is a great player, I don't think that taking one upgrade over the other is such a black/white matter. If I'm taking two hanged, they're both getting GST, so Jack is getting the whisper regardless. Jack's not always going to kill a model a turn, and if you're dealing with ping damage, GST is probably going to net you more value. 

 

It's not simply "Take GST until you Git Gud"

[Maniacal_cackle]

I mentioned Archie in the other thread with GST, but basically my progression of GST with Archie in GG0 was:

• New player, use GST as a crutch.
• Bit experienced, ditch GST and make do without it.
• Better player, sometimes use GST on Archie as it opens up a lot of options when he potentially has another 8 health per game.

GST is very good on models that are bobbing in and out of a fight. I'm not sure how much Jack qualifies, but if he fits that pattern, GST is probably very good on him.

[Graf]

That bring up a question for me, how other deal with that. I still pick GST for Daw quite often, but if I go for 2x GST on my Hanged (which is awesome too, let's not kid ourself here), I usually don't have points to spend for the third upgrade Whisper on Daw. Does anybody actually take that many upgrades? I might see it in Public Enemy, to reduce the number of potential VP givers and handcard users, but otherwise? I can't see it atm. Any enlightening experiences about that?

[Maniacal_cackle]

17 minutes ago, Graf said:

That bring up a question for me, how other deal with that. I still pick GST for Daw quite often, but if I go for 2x GST on my Hanged (which is awesome too, let's not kid ourself here), I usually don't have points to spend for the third upgrade Whisper on Daw. Does anybody actually take that many upgrades? I might see it in Public Enemy, to reduce the number of potential VP givers and handcard users, but otherwise? I can't see it atm. Any enlightening experiences about that?

I think there's a few approaches:

• Build the crew you want, then see if you have stones leftover for upgrades (in my base Reva crew, every model has a specific function, and the crew suffers if I don't bring every single one of them).
• Add the models you want with the upgrades assumed, and build from there (in my double mourner list for Seamus I want to try out, there's no point in trying the list without two GST, so that is a basic assumption of crew building is 2 GST + a whisper).
• If you find yourself with 2-4 upgrades, ask yourself "is this really worth not including another model?" For example if I have two shieldbearers with GST, I'm always going to ask myself if I should drop the two GST and pick up a third model.

It can vary enormously, as some crews upgrades are a must have (many arcanist crews), whereas other crews you can get by with 0 (Molly).

[Graf]

I mean... Yeah, I know that. 🤷‍♂️ Not what I was asking for. I'm looking for experiences and/or arguments for (or against) the different set-ups. 

[Sagrit]

GST do only 1 thing : Regen+2.

It will be useful if Jack takes damage and there are no other way to heal him, which means you are pretty much in trouble anyway. Jack will not use Blasphemous ritual, because he have better bonus actions anyway. And no Terrifying of course, because he's not minion

Whispers, otherwise, give Jack 2 useful things:

1) Intuition, which means you will have more chances to do what you want and not be surprised by unexpected flips

2) Jack is made for killing. Whisper give you card for killing. Card draw can be turned into heal if necessary. 

Same SS cost, but more profit from Whispers Also, as mentioned above, it's not rare to see 2 Hanged in crew and both of them would appreciate GST

[Maniacal_cackle]

The point about Whisper being able to heal him is an important one, seems much more flexible!

[Saduhem]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The point about Whisper being able to heal him is an important one, seems much more flexible!

I really stand by the fact that it isn't so black and white. You'll get dud turns with bad intuition cards. The Whisper will give you, on some turns, 1 health back. GST will give you, on every Turn, 2 health back.

Again, not saying it should always be one way or the other, but having GST on Jack alone can have the preventative effect of 20 stones as people just won't bother attacking Jack knowing that, if they even hit by winning both terrifying and the flip, 2 successful attacks are guaranteed to be erased every turn.

[Graf]

So Whisper for flexibility and GST for heal/safety. To conclude from this:

GST: Take it if you're reasonable sure your opponent will go after Jack OR you want to send him down your opponent's throat as far as you can, where it can be dangerous to be otherwise, even for him. 

Whisper: Take it if you're more careful with Jack, reasonable sure your opponent won't risk a failed assassination anyway OR generally don't know before the game what task you'll have Jack do.

 

Does this sound legit? 

 

Imho optimal for Daw is, if he catches *some* attacks. Never so much to kill him, but being avoided completly also isn't ideal, as it means attacks on your crew, which probably aren't as wasted as if he got attacked a bit. Can be tough to force an opponent to do that, at least against anyone who knows how Daw works. GST might be an upgrade that keeps opponent from doing that even more though. 

[Favilludo]

On 9/27/2020 at 12:58 AM, Graf said:

So Whisper for flexibility and GST for heal/safety. To conclude from this:

GST: Take it if you're reasonable sure your opponent will go after Jack OR you want to send him down your opponent's throat as far as you can, where it can be dangerous to be otherwise, even for him. 

Whisper: Take it if you're more careful with Jack, reasonable sure your opponent won't risk a failed assassination anyway OR generally don't know before the game what task you'll have Jack do.

 

Does this sound legit? 

 

Imho optimal for Daw is, if he catches *some* attacks. Never so much to kill him, but being avoided completly also isn't ideal, as it means attacks on your crew, which probably aren't as wasted as if he got attacked a bit. Can be tough to force an opponent to do that, at least against anyone who knows how Daw works. GST might be an upgrade that keeps opponent from doing that even more though. 

I really like that summary. I think while on the surface, whisper on jack just seems like a heal 2 on a kill, opposed to GST this gives your opponent an interest in hurting jack because if he hits jack 2 times and then jack kills something and you heal him 2, that is a netto loss of 4 cards. I honestly don't really like GST on the hanged. It is a good upgrade, but the bonus action on the hanged is something that I almost always want to at least try to use. This means that even if there are any corpse markers lying around, they won't really get used. While terrifying 13 is big, 12 is almost as good and the most effect this has is that the enemy will try to go for the hanged only with ruthless models.

Imho that goes exactly the other way of what you actually want to happen. The main goal with Jack is to have them attack your models and use more resources than you do to limit their options so having a model that costs 10 ss and basically sais "oneshot me or dont hit me" is kinda counterproductive.