Let's talk Hans

[Thatguy]

I've been thinking more and more about taking outcast Zipp. Hans seems like a great choice. Being able to apply slow and staggered at range seems incredible with Zipp threesome people around.

 

As far as comparing him to a 3 ap Rami, Hans is sitting in the same faction as Student of Conflict. While that costs 5ss ook, it doesn't rely on a card a turn and having your master babysit him. 

[Zebo]

Glad that a combination of 13ss models is a bit better than a single 6/7ss model. 

[Thatguy]

5 hours ago, Zebo said:

Glad that a combination of 13ss models is a bit better than a single 6/7ss model. 

13 vs 21 since you need Ophelia.

[Zebo]

Yes, because Ophelia costs ss and Hans use to play with no master in his crew, you got me. 

[Morgan Vening]

7 hours ago, Zebo said:

Yes, because Ophelia costs ss and Hans use to play with no master in his crew, you got me. 

I think it's in reference to Rami being 3AP. Without Ophelia, that's not possible, and Rami isn't quite that exceptional in comparison.

[Zebo]

Rami keeps being better than Hans by himself without 3 AP

[S4lt]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Rami keeps being better than Hans by himself without 3 AP

Agree, Rami is better at 7 than Hans at 8. 

[SoulGambit]

Hans is amazing. Hans solves problems. He looks at an important model you want to be not effective, and then Hans makes that model not effective for a turn by applying Slow, Staggered, and/or Stun. If you don't have a ready target, his Tomes trigger gives you pass tokens. And, yes, he can deal damage too and sometimes it'll even be 4/5/7 damage and feel great, but that is a rare occurance.

In Leylines he is phenomenal at denying markers, between Daze, Stagger, and Pass Tokens. 

 

[RiceP.]

5 hours ago, SoulGambit said:

Hans makes that model not effective for a turn by applying Slow, Staggered, and/or Stun.

Y'all saying that Hans is really good at handing out debuffs, but what I don't understand, is how you expected to hit "important" targets, that your opponent supposedly wants to protect, with a stat 5 attack. 

[Morgan Vening]

2 hours ago, RiceP. said:

Y'all saying that Hans is really good at handing out debuffs, but what I don't understand, is how you expected to hit "important" targets, that your opponent supposedly wants to protect, with a stat 5 attack. 

Only Stunned is on a 5. Slow and Staggered are on 6's. And he ignores nearly all penalties, between his Sights and the gun.

And yes, stat 5 for Stunned might be an issue against Df6, but it also means your opponent needing to match you card for card, assuming they win the initial duel. Even at a 1pt stat deficit, you're still looking at winning the duel what, 45+% of the time? And 80% of those will be low enough to force them into a decision.

As an example, when I flip a 5, they flip a 4, they've either got to cheat in a 13, or hope I don’t have one. And even if I lose, I'll often be happy trading a 13 from my hand to force a 13 out of theirs. Would I prefer to hit? Sure. But forcing the expenditure of valuable resources can be just as useful.

[RiceP.]

11 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

And he ignores nearly all penalties, between his Sights and the gun

Just like every other "sniper" in malifaux

12 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Even at a 1pt stat deficit, you're still looking at winning the duel what, 45+% of the time?

I believe that number is made up. Calculating actual chance of winning duel is complicated and i also have to say that in my experience, when i target something that i need to hit with a model that has equal or lower attack stat, my opponents just wont let me win that duel most of the time.
Also, slow and staggered are different triggers on one attack that has a stat of six, that's ok. However, it also means that you probably will be able to apply only one of those conditions per turn, because you probably don't want to be in 14" of anything, because with that df 4 of his, he is as tough as a wet paper and will die in a few attacks from any hard-hitting shooter like Alice, or, even if you can't kill him in one turn, he could be locked down in engagement by almost anyone and will have a hard time getting out, cause of mv 4, which, in turn, means that you have to stay more then 14" from opposing models most of the time and will have to concentrate every his activation. All of the above means that, when hiring Hans, you're spending 8 stones for a model that will apply one condition and, sometimes, 2 dmg in expense of discarding a card and maybe cheating a high one to actually hit with a stat 5 attack, and all that with a variable degree of success.  IMO, adaptive and/or increasing warning shot stat to 6 would be a nice buff. Either that, or just cut him down to 6 health and make him cost 6.

[SoulGambit]

4 hours ago, RiceP. said:

Y'all saying that Hans is really good at handing out debuffs, but what I don't understand, is how you expected to hit "important" targets, that your opponent supposedly wants to protect, with a stat 5 attack. 

Don't count on forcing through warning shot vs Df 6+ enemy models? There are usually important models that are Df 5 or less in my experience, and draining a high card from the opponent on defense is pretty important. If you are really worried about it, Pride Aura can do a lot to get Hans' shots through, though I admit next to Hans is not usually where I want Pride.

Also a 1 stat deficit, unless you are counting cards, is going to be about a 46.15% chance to at least tie, and a 53.85% to at least tie on his Stat 6. Doesn't include jokers because I am lazy.

[Ogid]

59 minutes ago, RiceP. said:

Just like every other "sniper" in malifaux

Some snipers are more equal than others tho. Riflemans and Angel Eyes doesn't ignore concealment (and if we count Lucius' hidden sniper as an sniper, that one doesn't ignore concealment nor friendly fire). In the AA case, she costs 9 and doesn't have Ruthless, has to expend SS for her triggers and can't give conditions...

Ruthless bypass 2 very common defensive techs that are a pain for non-ruthless models; and being able to give slow or staggered from that range is nothing to scoff at. I don't think Hans would be broken with some tweaks, but it's a correct model imho.

[RiceP.]

6 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Some snipers are more equal than others tho. Riflemans and Angel Eyes doesn't ignore concealment (and if we count Lucius' hidden sniper as an sniper, that one doesn't ignore concealment nor friendly fire). In the AA case, she costs 9 and doesn't have Ruthless, has to expend SS for her triggers and can't give conditions...

Ruthless bypass 2 very common defensive techs that are a pain for non-ruthless models; and being able to give slow or staggered from that range is nothing to scoff at. I don't think Hans would be broken with some tweaks, but it's a correct model imho.

Well, i didn't mean those snipers. More like rami, scouts, katanakas .

I agree, having ruthless is a nice addition.

[Morgan Vening]

2 hours ago, RiceP. said:

I believe that number is made up. Calculating actual chance of winning duel is complicated and i also have to say that in my experience, when i target something that i need to hit with a model that has equal or lower attack stat, my opponents just wont let me win that duel most of the time.

Actually, calculating the odds of winning a duel based on a flip is incredibly simple, as long as you're looking at the chances overall, and not the odds in an exactly specific case. You might not have all the information at hand (expended cards, cards in hand), but over the course of multiple tests, reliance on a base standard from a full deck isn't far off. I just don’t have my spreadsheet with me.

If you're consistently not hitting something you need to hit with an equal Stat, when tie goes to the attacker, then either your luck is significantly worse than mine, or your opponent has Lynch's luck.

[RiceP.]

37 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Actually, calculating the odds of winning a duel based on a flip is incredibly simple

That is true, but as you've said

37 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

as long as you're looking at the chances overall, and not the odds in an exactly specific case

Those are the chances of winning duel with full deck, also, not taking into account cards on hand. In actuality, when you target a model with 6 def with warning shot, opponent may completely deny your action, unless you have a red joker. Possibility of that is fine, its a common thing in malifaux, but when it's an action on a 8 ss model, who does only some debuffing and has actual killing capabilities compared to a 6ss gremlin, that just makes me not want to include him in my lists (and i'm a big fan of Hans fluff and models vise).

[touchdown]

I'm not really sure why warning shot is st 5. Wyrd just really doesn't want Outcasts to stun things

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, RiceP. said:

In actuality, when you target a model with 6 def with warning shot, opponent may completely deny your action, unless you have a red joker. Possibility of that is fine, its a common thing in malifaux, but when it's an action on a 8 ss model, who does only some debuffing and has actual killing capabilities compared to a 6ss gremlin, that just makes me not want to include him in my lists (and i'm a big fan of Hans fluff and models vise).

Don't get me wrong, stat 6 is better than 5, but it's not an auto miss. If the other player have to cheat first (by flipping better or with Pride), that player is left with a tough choice. If that player is willing to expend a 12-13, that's a a 12-13 not getting cheated in another duel or damage flip. Also Df stat 6 is a high value, versus those it might be a risky ability to use; but most models have Df 5 or less and versus those the stat 5 is more reliable.

If flips goes your way, with an auto crow an enemy model can be left with stunned, slow and distracted (or 2 with slow, that does have stat 6) not having to worry for suits... that's 1-2 models not doing much that turn.

I get you, it could be better, but it's far from useless.

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, touchdown said:

I'm not really sure why warning shot is st 5. Wyrd just really doesn't want Outcasts to stun things

Hans has to really restrain himself NOT to kill people; throws off his aiming if he's not going for headshots.

[Morgan Vening]

9 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Hans has to really restrain himself NOT to kill people; throws off his aiming if he's not going for headshots.

It's going against muscle memory. His tactical brain is going "Need to scare him.". His primal brain is going "NeEd tO KiLl tHe f***eR!".

[Adran]

2 hours ago, RiceP. said:

That is true, but as you've said

Those are the chances of winning duel with full deck, also, not taking into account cards on hand.

It's impossible for you to know the exact odds unless you know your opponents hand. So you are going to be working on an approximation in which case the just under 50% to win the original duel is worth knowing. If you're paying attention and are mathematicslly minded you can do improved odds as it happens, but they will still only be approximation, and probably very close to the same value.

It also depends on how much you want the effect, or accept making the opponent use a high card is also a good outcome.  

And you can't easily predict if your opponent is going to cheat a certain duel or not.