Let's talk Hans

[ShinChan]

So, I love the new sculpt, but I find his profile quite lackluster for an 8ss model. I'll be happy if anyone can probe me wrong or tell me in which scheme pools / keywords is a good pick.

Am I the only one that feels that he should have a printed "Bounty Hunter" ability or receive some sort of buff? (Or just drop 1 wound and become a 7ss model). Also the "Warning Shot" with Stat 5 for who's supposed to be the best sniper in the game (I'm sorry Rami, but it should be like this) seems ridiculous?

I only play Tara, Parker, Hamelin and Leveticus. I tried to fit him a couple of times with Tara and Hamelin, since he doesn't bring anything to the other two. However, I always prefer to go for something else. But maybe I'm missing something regarding the other keywords.

[touchdown]

I feel Hamelin is a weirdo master who has to stay in keyword more than any other.

I've found Hans nearly an auto-take for the Viks, and have considered or taken him with Von Schil, Levi, and Parker. I don't have any experience with Tara or Daw, although he seems like a good match for both with the ability to hand out staggered or get pass tokens.

You have a model that can get any suit he needs, does min 3 from 14" away. Most importantly for Outcasts is one of 3 models with ruthless and others are really not up to par*.  He's also the only model in faction that can hand out stunned.

He's got tons of utility and solid damage.

 

*I think Freikorpsmenn are fine in Freikorps but not worth it ook. Taelor is not even worth 9 stones

[Jesy Blue]

Typically when I've declared Von Schill vs Ressers or Neverborn, I have a great Ruthless build with Freikorpsmann, Hans & Taelor... just in case I end up against a heavy Terrifying crew.  That's the only time I use Hans & Taelor.

[HomelessOne]

I mean, in fairness, a warning shot is typically supposed to miss. 😛

[ShinChan]

48 minutes ago, touchdown said:

I feel Hamelin is a weirdo master who has to stay in keyword more than any other.

I've found Hans nearly an auto-take for the Viks, and have considered or taken him with Von Schil, Levi, and Parker. I don't have any experience with Tara or Daw, although he seems like a good match for both with the ability to hand out staggered or get pass tokens.

You have a model that can get any suit he needs, does min 3 from 14" away. Most importantly for Outcasts is one of 3 models with ruthless and others are really not up to par*.  He's also the only model in faction that can hand out stunned.

He's got tons of utility and solid damage.

 

*I think Freikorpsmenn are fine in Freikorps but not worth it ook. Taelor is not even worth 9 stones

I though about bringing him many times vs Guild pre-errata in order to stop the rider with the only stunned in faction, but I always found better choices for 8ss.

He can get any suit, by discarding a card. Except Parker and Jack (for what I've read about it), Outcast is a faction that has to treasure their cards. Other models have Tools for the Job, which allows you to cycle, gives you the suit and doesn't even cost you a : action. And then, there's Bishop, that gains the suit because he's cool AF

 

 

[touchdown]

5 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

I though about bringing him many times vs Guild pre-errata in order to stop the rider with the only stunned in faction, but I always found better choices for 8ss.

He can get any suit, by discarding a card. Except Parker and Jack (for what I've read about it), Outcast is a faction that has to treasure their cards. Other models have Tools for the Job, which allows you to cycle, gives you the suit and doesn't even cost you a : action. And then, there's Bishop, that gains the suit because he's cool AF

 

 

Hans easier to keep alive and project threat better than Bishop. Other models do have tools for the job but they don't have as good of triggers. If he had that he'd have to be like a 10 point model.

[ShinChan]

14 minutes ago, touchdown said:

Hans easier to keep alive and project threat better than Bishop. Other models do have tools for the job but they don't have as good of triggers. If he had that he'd have to be like a 10 point model.

I just can't avoid comparing him to Rami LaCroix, and the second one is way better than Hans. Looks like Hans has a extra 1-2ss cost to justify those 8Wds that are not really important for his profile.

I think that Rami could stay how he is right now, while the other 2 sniper characters (Hans and Angel Eyes) could at least lose 1 Wd to drop their cost by 1ss.

[touchdown]

Rami can't guarantee triggers. That's huge.

[ShinChan]

Just now, touchdown said:

Rami can't guarantee triggers. That's huge.

With the card draw in keyword and in faction, is never a problem. He can also (in an ideal world with a deck full of masks) make 6 shoots/turn without counting Obeys with Ophelia.

[touchdown]

How is he getting 3 ap by himself?

I've played against Rami and Hans easily out performs him ime

[ShinChan]

Just now, touchdown said:

How is he getting 3 ap by himself?

I've played against Rami and Hans easily out performs him ime

I said with Ophelia, with Strike Team. Also, you can easily bump him to focus 4-5 in turn 1 if you pay for 12 cups of coffee, which helps with his Sniper ability.

[RiceP.]

Completely agree on Hans needing something. I like the new sculpt, i liked one in m2e, but i always thought that his rules were really lackluster and that he didn't brought anything significant to the table besides mediocre shooting. In second edition he was actually worse than freikorps scout IMO, now at least that isn't the problem (kinda). I guess it's hard to balance model that by design stays 14" (or more) away from enemies.

[Zebo]

Yes, Hans feels like he needs somr help. 

I would change his gun to the same than Von Schills (+1 damage to moderate), would change Reference the Field Guide for Risky Maneuver and would five him Adaptive. 

[ShinChan]

6 hours ago, Zebo said:

Yes, Hans feels like he needs somr help. 

I would change his gun to the same than Von Schills (+1 damage to moderate), would change Reference the Field Guide for Risky Maneuver and would five him Adaptive. 

Then his will humiliate Seamus shooting. With those changes that you're suggesting he could easily get a 4/6/7 damage track + focus for 1 damage. Then he definitely should cost 10ss.

[RiceP.]

19 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Then his will humiliate Seamus shooting. With those changes that you're suggesting he could easily get a 4/6/7 damage track + focus for 1 damage. Then he definitely should cost 10ss.

I'd take that any day instead of boring semi-shooty-sniper that deals minimum of 2 and  has to discard cards i don't have. But it would've been too oppressive, so wyrd prob would never do something like that.

[touchdown]

I just think it's funny that Bishop has been mentioned positively compared to Hans. When Hans has provided more straight up value for me every time I've used either one. Not more per stone but more total value despite being a stone cheaper.

[Zebo]

11 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Then his will humiliate Seamus shooting. With those changes that you're suggesting he could easily get a 4/6/7 damage track + focus for 1 damage. Then he definitely should cost 10ss.

He now can "easily" Get a 4/5/7 damage track for 1 card and many considers him sub-par (myself too), not sure if that +1 on moderates  makes Seamus jealous. 

Simply was thinking about Hans being able to take one shoot each turn with the extra range and the positive flip by focus. 

Is a 8ss model slow, soft with no melee attack nor way to run away from engagement, his only role is to shoot. Maybe for 8ss should be a lot better shooting than a 6ss gremlin who gains shielded, can push out of combat, may ignore armor and repeat shoots. 

[S4lt]

I'd just drop him to 7ss. He doesn't even come close to Rami power levels at the moment.

[Zebo]

Then Rami would keep being better and cheaper. 

[S4lt]

6 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Then Rami would keep being better and cheaper. 

I think that's a Rami problem. He should cost more. 

[touchdown]

Outside of Kin, Rami can't get 3 AP. You can't directly compare versatile to in-keyword. Models should be better for the cost in keyword and they can be balanced by other weaknesses of the crew. Maybe Rami is too cheap. 50/50 chance at min 3 or extra attack for 7 stones is bit much

[Burnin4tor]

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say Hans seems in a pretty good spot. He is a useful toolbox, who like Bishop has a wide variety of occasionally super useful triggers that he can guarantee at a good distance away. 

Regarding how cost effective he is I think you need to remember this is a versatile model. Versatiles should be the models you sometimes flex in for specific matchups or pools, not an always efficient super model otherwise you’d only see the same models in every list. Is he as good as 8 stones spent elsewhere in keyword? Not always. But sometimes he is and that’s the key.

I’m also very wary when you read comparisons of similar models across different factions - the nature of this game means it’s important to not do this. A sniper in Neverborn or Bayou has access to a hugely different set of buffs and companions to work with than Hans does, and so needs to be evaluated differently. You can’t examine models in a vacuum like that, they exist in context of their faction and keyword.

[Christosdnd]

For me, what separates Hans from other models is his Ruthless and the ability to have the triggers guaranteed. If I play against a keyword with much Manipulative, Terrifying, or a master that needs to be pinned down, I would really consider Hans. I had games where the opponent selected an aggressive master, so I took Hans just to repeatedly give them stun and slow.

Also, you need to consider your terrain. If you think that you will have to move him many times in order to be in LOS of your target, then better replace him with something else.

Last but not least, I sometimes use him for scoring Vendetta. Being 8 stones means that you can find easy-to- kill targets in the 8-9 stone range. Also the opponent rarely expect Hans and won't have the resources to go to your back-line, kill him and deny you the second point.

[Trample]

Hans does a great job disrupting your opponents plans in many situations. The ability to apply staggered at 28" is fantastic. He can shut down the round one Valedictorian attack with that attack. He can keep a mature nephlim out of charge range.  He can stop the lodestone carrier from getting to the second ley line in round two. I think it's his best trigger. It really stinks that he has to discard a card for it and I would agree that he probably won't be overpowered if that ability was Adaptive instead but I do think he's fine. 

[Morgan Vening]

13 minutes ago, Trample said:

It really stinks that he has to discard a card for it and I would agree that he probably won't be overpowered if that ability was Adaptive instead but I do think he's fine. 

I think Adaptive might be too much, but I agree that RtFG is a bit harsh.

A card draw after using RtFG would be sufficient. It means you would need to have cards in hand to use it, and have one of the appropriate suit too.

Maybe an ability that lets him draw a card at EoA if he used a trigger from a suit from RtFG (so he can't just cycle cards, he has to hit his target) keeps it from being too powerful. Plenty of space on the front of his card.

Figure Tools for the Job is probably too powerful because knowing what you're picking up is very potent.